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That makes no sense to me and warranties that require the customer to cover return shipping are far from unusual.
Yes but that "shipping" is back to the place of purchase, not the place of manufacture. The OP should not have to return to factory he should return to you the seller, the seller then deals with the distributor or manufacturer. All to save you £20 🙄
Should you still buy a Nicolai?
Based on their post sales attitude? No.
They ride superbly and failures are rare.
But when they do fail, then you are on your own sonny Jim.
I'd still buy a nicolai and if it had a warranty issue I'd expect them to honor it but if I'd been riding with Uri Geller I wouldn't expect them to.
Guys - don't mix up warranty with legal rights.
In law you return it to the retailer and its their responsibility. However if you are relying on the warranty that the manufacturer gives on top of your legal rights then what they say goes - even returning it at your cost to germany
to me the critical thing is this
. Come Spring 2011 and it [b]starts to develop[/b] an annoying brake drag
so - to me a cheap replacement is more than good enough for a frame that was bent in use with no evidence of a fault
Bit of a surprise, but +1 tj.
TJ, I have never argued that the offers for repair were unreasonable but when it is for repairing something that has not been subjected to damage what then? What has irked me throughout this whole affair is that I naively thought that having spent 2.5K with the company that when I was presented with a claim that I knew I couldn't prove, and one that they couldn't disprove, that the benefit of the doubt would have been applied.
I hoped that Simon at Nic UK would have fought my corner with Germany (Something along the lines of "Hey guys I know this is a strange one, I've not seen something like this before but can we do a special deal, the guys bought two frames off me and he may buy more stuff in the future?") This is not an unusual way of doing business, hell I'd say it is the norm if you want to keep customers.
It took *me* to contact Germany, I don't even know if they read my e-mails as they never answered my questions or acknowledged any of the contents. It was Germany that offered the better deal for replacing two upper struts for £130 after chasing them up after a month of waiting. When I told them to proceed with the work I got an e-mail two days later to say that it was done and on its way back to me! Just how long would I have had to wait if I didn't chase them up?
You can talk until the cows come home about the business model you work within, but if you can't grasp cordiality and customer retention is something your'e not prepared to "take the hit for" then maybe a lesson from the likes of Silverfish, On-One etc is required.
soulwood - what do you want? The manufacturer gave you a cheap replacement and took the hit.
I don't understand what yo want the distributeres to do? Its a bent frame not a manufacturing fault or any other defect that the retailer or manufacturer is liable for.
Seriously - you have got great service and a great result here. I am amazed you were not just told tough.
I naively thought that having spent 2.5K with the company that when I was presented with a claim that I knew I couldn't prove, and one that they couldn't disprove, that the benefit of the doubt would have been applied.
I think your problem here is that Nicolai probably can prove that the frame alignment was correct when it left the factory. Certainly their QC will be top notch if they are anything like our German distributor. Indeed it did seem to be OK for a long time before you experienced problems. Is it possible that you just didn't notice the issue and the frame could have been bent in transit to the UK?
It seems odd that transit costs for a warranty claim would be paid by the customer though. That can't be normal business, surely? What if he had a warranty claim accepted, would he still have to pay shipping costs? That does not sit right with me at all. The various delays seem to be ok in isolation but add up to an excessive amount, albeit all 3 parties are culpable. I think that soulwood has been unlucky but is going to have to chalk this one up to experience. Not sure it would put me off buying a Nicolai tbh.
So you bought a frame. Rode it for a year. Bent it. Sent it back at your own cost. Was offered a solution to the problem at a reduced cost.
So your only issue is that you had to wait a while.
Well you can not please everyone.
What's the other frame your gonna sell?
So you bought a frame. Rode it for a year. Bent it.
I think he's very clear on the fact that he didn't bend it! Or that it wasn't ever in a situation where that kind of damage could have occurred. I can see some parallels here with situations that have taken place with my company. You sell something. It returns a long time afterwards with a problem that it couldn't have left the factory with, yet the customer is adamant that they didn't cause it. I think the compromise offered is fair, but unfortunately no-one goes away happy at the end of it.
wunundred!
How childish. 😐
(Git 😡 )
Personally, it's stuff like this what might put me off buying a particular braynd of bike. Having said that, I own a Cannondale... 😆
I think he's very clear on the fact that he didn't bend it! Or that it wasn't ever in a situation where that kind of damage could have occurred.
Many years ago this...
Cleaning up my steel road bike one day I found a bend in one of the seatstays. No idea on earth how that could have happened as [b]to my knowledge[/b] I had never siubjected the frame to any kind of impact and it was bent in a weird place, not like the mech hanger, this was way up the seatstay by the brakes. It hadn't been there last time I cleaned it.
But the point is, the frame had been bent, if not by me then by some sort of external force while that frame belonged to me. Maybe someone at work dropped a bike on it in the shed or something, who knows. It was still MY responsibility though.
Now that Nicolai frame must have been bent somehow, whether the OP knew it or not. Maybe not him, maybe someone moved it without his knowledge but Nicolai are quite correct in saying it's not a warranty issue it's an accidental damage issue. The fact that you can't comprehend how that damage could have occured is neither here nor there - you can't have kept the frame in your constant view for all that time. I couldn't work it out on my road bike either...
The delays are regrettable certainly but you're dealing with a small company who do custom builds and frame build runs. If it was a big name brand who had thousands of frames on a production line in Taiwan, they'd probably just have gone "here you go" and barely noticed, Nicolai can't do that for reasons they themselves have explained.
as someone said above to sum it up:
you claim you have'nt damaged the frame, nicolai claim thats not really possible and are basically saying its your own fault...
now we as a group have no idea if you are lying or not, based on what you have put on here id actually side with you (because you have been given a decent price etc etc to get it right) but you are still adamant its their wrong doing (again if you were blagging and got a good replacement price then why continue with this thread or even start it, you'd be chuffed for £130 it was fixed)...so to me i'd probably give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, and paying so much for a frame id expect a bit of backup too.....regardless of what margins are involved you sell a frame at 2.5k youd expect the very top top top warranty/service avaiabable....that clearly hasnt happened as he has basically been accused of lying about the damage....
so you get a 2.5k frame fixed for 130 and the chap is moaning hes been hard done by, again ill reiterate my point, if you knew you had done it yourself and lied/blagged to get it fixed instead of having a useless 2.5k frame, you would take their offer and run to the moon with it! its screaming out he hasn't at least knowingly done this himself, and i just think its the sort of frame/money that would give 101% assurance that even if you snapped it in half yourself by doing something stupid they would back you up a little.....
lot of bad press for nicolai on this....errors can happen, sometimes handcrafted/made things can have just like the robots that make other frames
The two key issues for me here are the way thie OP had to send the frame to Germany himself, and why the frame could get bent so easily without him being aware of a big hit.
The offer of Nicolai seems reasonable, and the distributors feedback here just about acceptable if not that warm.
and another point too - nicolai say there frames dont fail, so therefore warranty returns should be pretty much nil and scarce, surely then if someone does on the very odd occasion have a problem like this chap, you should certainly sort him out?? claiming they are indesctructable or near enough, means you should never have many expenses on warranty claims, if this is the case the odd 1 or 2 slipping through the warranty system surely should not be too bad for the company? i mean all companies will expect a few failures over the year for their frames?
There seems to be a bit of a failure to appreciate how a company like Nicolai works amongst some posters. Just because a frame is expensive doesn't mean that the company is working on large margins or awash with money. You're paying for something that is handcrafted in Europe rather than for the expensive marketing campaigns of the big multinationals. Lower priced frames may well have the same margin but the profit comes from larger volumes
Sounds like he should have bought an Orange to me, won't get that trouble with them.
I'm definitely never going to buy a Nicolai after reading this thread.
My last post, as the frame has provisionally been sold. The bike was only ever out of my sight while it was hung by the front wheel in my garage and on one occasion while at work, where it was in an office where nothing heavy enough could have been loaded onto it (I would have noticed immediately) The bike was never transported in a horizontal fashion, my car allows it to be stood upright. It has not been packed in a bike bag and taken on a flight (I wish!) There were no impact marks where the strut was bent. The strut was never fully examined other than a straight rule put against it and photographed with the report "bent... must have hit something". I asked how much load would be required to bend it without leaving a mark, such as someone standing on it for example, never answered. If folk think that this is a reasonable way of concluding your business with a valued (?) customer then we will surely end up with the customer service that we deserve.
If you take the OP at his word that he hasn't crashed/damaged the frame, which I do, the answer for the frame damage is fairly obvious. It's been damaged in transport to the uk or to you by the courier. You or the guys at 18bikes didn't notice it so it must have been so slight that it's hard to tell without a jig. The damage has then become worse with use as swingarms are put under a lot of stress, hence it not showing up straight away.
You can understand Nicolai's response, they know it has left the workshop straight. A year later it is returned bent with the owner saying it has hardly been used.
I posted a frame a couple of years ago when we had the postal strikes and by the time it had arrived one of the chainstays was snapped clean in half, with no obvious damage to the box. I had made a dropout brace out of 8mm studding and four nuts as well, the good old royal mail! Having done a bit of courier work I can easily see how enough force has been put on the frame to bend it.
I think the repair cost is fair considering the work invovled. Having to pay for it to be returned to germany is out of order unless you would have been returned these costs had Nicolai agreed that it was a warranty issue. Both you and Nicolai have lost out to the courier but you'll never be able to prove it. I can understand your anger but unfortunately it is just one of those things. You can't win them all and at the end of the day even with the repair costs you still have a frame under the rrp.
#OP = you say it developed a brake rub - that means the issue was not there from new. While it was in your possession it got bent - its not a warranty issue at all.
You have done very sell to get a cheap repair.
Intense had well known alignment issues. Sometimes frames only showed it down the line in bearing wear.
Could it be a manufacturing weakness especially with strains and forces due to rocky use flexing bad welds?
Let's face it I doubt they pay their fabricators/builders 2k a frame or even close. Most factory frame builders won't have ridden a bike since their childhood afterall.
elf, apologies for beating you to it.
Sounds like he should have bought an Orange to me, won't get that trouble with them.
interesting to see so much pro-Orange stuff on this thread as my perception from other posts on STW is that if an Orange frame breaks (and quite a few do) they weld repair them rather than replace them, which is usually an imperfect and ultimately temporary step. Curious to hear other more positive experiences to back up all the support (and as an owner of an Alpine I am not anti but genuinely interested).
The OP can be adamant that he hasn't damaged the bike, and most of us believe he is genuine, but most people would lie if there was a substantial financial incentive hence the term JRA and I'm sure companies become very sceptical when every failure is accompanied with a "it wasnt me". In the OP's shoes I'd be very happy with the £130 repair, and philosophical about the rest.
Hora, its not an issue of who gets paid what, its not a warranty issue, nicolai shouldn't have to pay.
why should they honor a claim that does not fall under warranty?
Ok ok so I reckon we've reached the answer
Frame leaves factory fine, QA proves it
Something happens to frame after that, either OP is lying or it's been stood on or whacked without him knowing. Whatever.
Nicolai refuse the warranty claim as they are confident about the state it left them in.
I remember reading about someone who managed to **** up a turner rear triangle when trying to do a bushing swap. He phoned them up and explained, they laughed at him and sent him a new rear triangle FOC.
this is about being cool with your customers and going the extra mile.
Nicolai might be right but they've been ****s about it IMO.
why should they honor a claim that does not fall under warranty?
Indeed why should they even have to foot the bill for sending the bike to Germany when they are making a commercial gesture to put right a non warranty issue at reduced cost.
My wife used to work for a large UK based retailer and their policy was the customer is always right (even when they're not).
They reckoned that the goodwill is something that you can't buy and that the customer will return and that they will tell lots of friends & colleagues, so much so that the cost will always be more than repaid.
Ok
The customer is always right.
I.E. Anyone who can afford your product is worth keeping.
If you have to question the last line you shouldn't be in the business.
Lol how ironic ssnowman. so true.
I think Nicolai UK are a smaller operation who have jobs outside the industry.
Is this true? Therefore the profit is more 'personal'?
[i]My last post, as the frame has provisionally been sold.[/i]
At the end of the day you've managed to make yourself that bitter that you've ended up out-of-pocket and with no frame 🙄
Do hope you've told the buyer the history of the frame?
I remember reading about someone who managed to **** up a turner rear triangle when trying to do a bushing swap. He phoned them up and explained, they laughed at him and sent him a new rear triangle FOC.
There's a big difference there in how the 2 individuals approached the problem though. If the turner lad called up turner and said 'I was just changing he pivots and I noticed the rear tri was bent, no idea how it happened. It must be turners fault. I want some stress analysis done etc etc' do you think turners response would have been the same?
Must add before I get stoned for putting words in the op's mouth that I've no idea how he came across when first reporting the issue. that's just the impression I get from reading his posts
Hora
'anyone who can afford your product is worth keeping'
Not sure id agree with that as a general statement. It assumes its only about the money. for some(myself included and I suspect a lot of small mtb businesses), it's also about the relationships. I don't care how much money a customer has or has not, if theres no mutual respect thenI don't want them as a long term customer.
The customer is always right.I.E. Anyone who can afford your product is worth keeping.
If you have to question the last line you shouldn't be in the business.
Have you ever worked for a manufacturer Hora? I'd add an "almost" in your first line and a "probably" in the second.
Agreed rich penny. 😀
"I'd still buy a nicolai and if it had a warranty issue I'd expect them to honor it but if I'd been riding with Uri Geller I wouldn't expect them to." LOL.
I heard a guy on the trail screaming "workk,workkk!" as he descended out of control on his Nicolai earlier this afternoon.
a customer who is costing you money and may be acting as if they will cause you more hassle in the future is not a customer you may necessarily think its worth keeping.
ATB sales are fantastic on warranty but people won't buy marin because they aren't cool. people are fickle and nicolai are cooler than one complaint, people will continue to buy them.
For what it is worth, and I am biased, my Nicolai worked flawlessly today. Again.
They reckoned that the goodwill is something that you can't buy and that the customer will return and that they will tell lots of friends & colleagues, so[s] much so that the cost will always be more than repaid[/s] they can take the pi$$ too and get free stuff.
There you go 🙂
I love the people that came into the shop with a wheel that looks like a pringle and say "My little angelic child was riding off of a kerb and this happened, he could have died", umm OK, damn that kerb.
For what it is worth, and I am biased, my Nicolai worked flawlessly today. Again.
Likewise.
I can't get away from the fact that this is a problem that didn't manifest itself for a year.
It's surely impossible for alloy box section to bend at 90 degrees to the angle of force from 'fatigue', so it had to happen during ownership even if the OP is personally unaware of any circumstances that could have caused it.
Their are clearly elements of customer service that have been less than perfect in dealing with the issue but the end result of a new rear end for £130 is generous considering it's not actually warranty issue.
Not sure what to think about this, but a couple of things strike me.
If the user and the dealer both failed to spot the bent strut, it is probably pretty minor (although obviously big enough to cause a problem). What amazes me is the impression I get that Nicolai find it unimaginable that a fault could slip through their QC. Anything built with humans involved can and does go wrong.
The other thing is the prevailing sentiment that small scale european 'hand crafted' type producers will somehow have better QC than mass producers in Taiwan. The guys in Taiwan closely control their production yield and will know the rate of warranty returns for a particular product. This is why they can price in replacements and hand out new frames when there is a problem. In my opinion, mass production is one of the most amazing feats of engineering in the modern world, I don't get the impulse to have something expensively made on a small scale for reasons other than custom geometry/sizing or exclusivity.
"A problem that fails to show itself for a year"
Again. So why do frame manufacturers offer 2, 4, 5 and lifetime warranties?
How about Enduros that are known to fail in the same place?
Stand by your product. I think its safe to say that if someone can overpay for an aluminium tubed bicycle then they aren't the sort that will lie over a small £% cost are they?
Choron
A few posters have implied nicolais qc is beyond reproach. Nicolai haven't said that.
The decision to buy a nicolai over say a specialized is not necessarily made with the head. I still get my ass kicked by many a mass market bike. Most mass produced bikes, however good they may be just don't do it for me. And most nicolai owners i know are the same. My nics are maintained religiously as I enjoy cleaning and working on them. My wife's mass produced car never even gets washed and gets the bare minimum of maintainance. There's nothing wrong with it and it does it's job well but it's just a car in the same way a specialized is just a bike.
My wife's mass produced car never even gets washed and gets the bare minimum of maintainance. There's nothing wrong with it and it does it's job well but it's just a car in the same way a specialized is just a bike.
In no way would I class Specialized as a bland mass-market ride or feel to their frames.
In addition Ford have made soooo many cars that blow any Alfa or Audi etc out of the water for steering feel and dynamics.
They build a product that excel at the primary purpose first. Just because a company isn't that successful (meaning they are small) doesn't make them better.
Boutique can mean 'small volume/not as good a product'. Fancy paint jobs and high prices doesn't mean the fundamental product is better now does it?
I've always looked at Nicolai's and thought 'heavy and pricey for what they are'.
And thats coming from a reformed gear-queer.
Haven't read all of this but a few points I have
I have 3 Nicolais and have owned 5 in total. Love them and would not hesitate in buying another. Not had a single issue to report. Think the OP has been very unlucky
I think the German response though slow was not unreasonable.
I think the UK Nicolai guys should be embarrased by their role (or lack of) in the whole thing. Warranty or not they should be helping their customers more than this. If I had to deal direct with them rather than Psycle Werx (my excellent LBS) my comment above about not hesitating would not apply
As everyone is sticking their oar in I think I'll have a go as well.
I'm totally with the OP. The ONLY way that a strut could bend like that is if there has been some sort of latent fault within it and whilst it managed to last about a year before the fault manifested itself when you buy a tip top frame such as a Nicolai CC with a 5 year warranty you expect the 5 year warranty to cover faults such as this.
I’m pretty sure the law covers latent defects in the Sales of Goods Act as well and a 2 grand bike frame that starts to fold in on itself after year certainly isn’t fit for purpose so had the OP been of a litigious nature he could have gone to court against Nicolai UK armed with a metallurgist’s report and had a reasonable case to get his money back on the frame.
The real telling thing in one of these threads is when a representative from the company being accused to less than perfect customer service comes along and defends the company and by doing so gives the air of lacking the authority or capacity to simply sort a situation out, you can almost smell the impotence. The “No, but you did this”, “I couldn’t do that cos you said that” and the final inevitable “well we’ve got plenty of other customers who are happy!” trying to imply that if you are in a minority then you must be wrong.
The cold hard fact is when you are spending over 2 THOUSAND POUNDS on a mountain bike frame then when it breaks it should get fixed, you shouldn’t have the company quibble, the repairer should be chased up and a line of communication with the customer should be kept open by the seller. In doing this you get many threads across the net praising your customer service and so people are happier to spend money with you knowing that the company are behind you. The villain of this piece sounds to me like Nicolai Germany for not giving Nicolai UK enough authority to deal with its own problems.
So if I bend my frame the manufacturer should replace it for free?
Under the sale of goods act after something is six months old it is up to you to show it was a manufacturing fault.
How a bent piece that does not manifest itself until the bike is a year old can be a manufacturing fault is a mystery to me
Under the sale of goods act after something is six months old it is up to you to show it was a manufacturing fault.
So why do bike manufacturers offer 1, 2 3+ warranties?