Iolo, AV was'nt directly involved with the build.
If the council are tasked with getting more people to ride and have no money and no experience, then you will get trails that are:
a) easy to ride
b) built by the lowest bidder
Sadly the video didn't say "fire road replaced with this"
saxabar - Member
Yep, I get that bit, but do you think it as good as could be for the money? Should the builders have gone for some thing more technical, or is a smoother trail better so to encourage a greater range of riders?
I'm not really qualified to say, I dont know what the average rider at penmchno wants / needs, what these things cost, how many beginer / child friendly routes are needed / planned, I dont know future plans for the trail & surrounding area etc.
What I do know is we are very lucky any money is being spent on trails for us to enjoy. If you were to put the VFM argument to the general punlic I doubt we would see a single penny for a mountain bike trail in the middle of north wales.
I presuming its public money that funded it from what you said btw.
Say it's 3k
I read here it was 50K, not sure that's right but let's assume so
50,000/3,000=16.67/meter
Costs
All health and safety (method statements, Risk assesments, COSHH etc)
Prelims (Cabins for the men, toilets, Manager for job,fuel for machines etc)
Surveying
Tree Felling
Tree Removal
Initial Route clearance
Building up trail
Placing substantial base
Final shaping
Dressing with final sub base layer
Compacting
Dressing the trail edges
Whatever else you can think of.
That's bloody good value at 16.67/meter
BandB.I would have said between post 2.14 and 2.19 on the Eryri trail to replace the road linking section and give a bit of a warm up for people just doing the 2nd loop. Maybe provide a 2nd trail head to ease congestion at the original car park and give people not used to the rocky nature of the trails an easier introduction to the joys of 'ROCK'.
IMO of course 8)
Cost per meter is generally nearer £20-25.Thats pretty standard now for trail building. In terms of total cost building ,partial bench cut or 'off line' built trail using naturally occurring features is'nt really anymore expensive than importing tons of aggregate to build 'scalextric track'. You only have to look to see what a good job Extreme Track did at Antur Stiniog in much harder conditions.
Saw this the other day. It's like someone diverted the M6 through north Wales!
While maybe I wasn't a big fan of Penmachno when I first rode it, the nature of the place is old school raw and natural style trails. Bleak and remote. It could have done with some bits eliminating the tedious fireroad parts at times, but I'd expect more trails of the kind like the really nice descents.
Not this!
I'm no modern trail centre hater. This kind of stuff is great fun in BPW. It just doesn't fit with Penmachno at all. It's kind of ruined the place really. May as well set up full facilities now with visitor centre, coffee shop, toilets, showers. Hell, even an uplift!
😉
Seriously though. I'll give it a go, and probably enjoy it, but still I do think it's out of keeping with the place. Go stick this in CYB instead.
I'm just going on distance and total cost.
If it's 2 kilometers then it is 25 per meter.
I think it looks great – and hopefully the influx of riders will then make a commercial justification for a visitor centre etc.
The fact is that mountain biking has moved on and speed, jumps and pace through sections are held in higher regard by your modern rider than old fashioned “no dabs” type riding at low speed. Think thrill seeking rather than escapism.
If you don’t like it, just don’t ride that section. Simple.
As for £5k on a video – again the fact is that social media plays a huge and important part in getting riders to visit somewhere in search of their thrills (very different to people wanting to look at bikepacking/intop the wild type stuff in a coffee table styled magazine), so a high quality video portraying this kind of trail is important to get the message out to their target audience.
Biking’s progressing – either embrace it or don’t, but don’t clog up the internet with grumpy old man moans. There’s a working men’s club in most towns to allow you to hand around and be miserable.
I must jump in among the haters, I'm afraid.
I'm sure the new stuff is fun, but it doesn't fit in at Penmachno. It looks an eyesore (admittedly it'll run and weather-in,) and is the kind of man-made stuff I go to places like Penmachno to avoid.
CYB has it's share of this Llandegla-esque trail too, just down the road and I can see why - lots of people love the BMXy stuff and they need the business to keep all the infrastructure afloat, but the appeal of Penmachno was always the: getting changed out of the car boot and off into the hills - with the bonus of some route markers, old school style. I'm clearly not alone in thinking this, going by the posts so far.
This guy rides mountain bikes very well and was in charge of all new bits in Coed y Brenin in the last few years. He doesn't build bad trails.
AAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH
I couldn't give a rat's piss about Penmachno but such a statement about CYB makes my blood boil. It used to be excellent, it's now just mediocre. Much of the work done at CyB over the last 10 years has been absolutely unforgivable. To use the pisch created at CyB as something to shower praise on a trail builder is barmy.
Quite often I ride my bike to get away from the town and get out amongst the wilder bits of the landscape, to soak up the atmosphere of somewhere rugged..
That looks like some **** in VW T5 might come cruising along it at any given moment 🙂
I haven't ridden it, and the chances are slim that I ever will, do to it's location..
The whole reason places in Wales get funded isn't to be kind to a minority of riders and their taste, it's to create an infrastructure that a mass market will come to and spend money in an area, as part of a larger social regeneration picture.
So by definition you design it to appeal to the more modern style of riding, not the old style "getting away from it all" that mountain biking used to be.
Meh.. I'm old
deadkenny - Member
It's kind of ruined the place
Behave, some grass & bushes will grow, the rain will wash half of it away & it will be fine.
Pathetic to say the whole place is ruined by a new section of trail. 🙄
[i]Pathetic to say the whole place is ruined by a new section of trail.[/i]
Innit.
Oh noes, all this money being spent on my hobby, and it's not exactly what I want. Therefore the world has ended. 🙄
If you think it looks fun from the film, seriously; go ride it. It's not fun. There is no gradient and if you want to be leaving the ground at all, you'll need to pedal like buggery for the whole time.
Perhaps the vid was so pricey because they had to film it one hump at a time due to the lack of flow and the fact that it's a flat bit of path?
I understand that it's difficult to do much with a flat bit of land. I understand that these pathways are cheap. It's just so depressing.
If you were thinking adam and eve - CYB; think again.
So by definition you design it to appeal to the more modern style of riding, not the old style "getting away from it all" that [b]mountain biking used to be[/b].
FFS
The old stuff is still there! This is not replacing anything - the existence of this trail takes nothing away from you. So what the hell are you moaning about?
It's like complaining when One Direction release a new record that Led Zepplin records have gone away.
you'll need to pedal like buggery for the whole time.
Oh no... imagine having to work a bit !
Oh no... imagine having to work a bit !
😀
Well done for missing the point!
Well done for missing the point!
Am I .... or are you.
The trail is flat... I get it... the trail is dull if you ride it slowly, I get that... However, if I want swoppy bits with jumpy bits and am prepared to work hard... it's fun ?
Ridden those bits, Penmachno is one of my local trails, bottom line is that video edit makes those new bits look really significant in terms of length therefore diluting or cutting back the old school tight rocky singletrack that Penmachno is well known for. However in reality they are not that long at all and simply link some of the best downhills to avoid the singletrack/fireroad/singletrack/fireroad repetition. So in that respect they are great, and make the whole of the last third 90% fireroad trudge free. It isnt like Llandegla anymore now than it was before, it just links up the traditional bits better, and adds some variety.
As molgrips said "it doesnt replace anything" (other than 2 x uphill fireroads) I like it.
you come on here with your reasonable real world experience...How very dare you
However, if I want swoppy bits with jumpy bits and am prepared to work hard... it's fun ?
Honestly, I'm not sure it can be. I'm unsure if it is possible for us mortals (I'm no Ratboy) to carry sufficient speed to make to swoopy and jumpy, that's why I suggested that the vid was made piecemeal. Some of the stuff is on an incline. I'd class it as pedally, not swoopy.
I dunno. I only rode it once, I can't see anyone wanting to session it.
Honestly, I'm not sure it can be. I'm unsure if it is possible for us mortals (I'm no Ratboy) to carry sufficient speed to make to swoopy and jumpy, that's why I suggested that the vid was made piecemeal. Some of the stuff is on an incline. I'd class it as pedally, not swoopy.
I dunno. I only rode it once, I can't see anyone wanting to session it
I'm with you.. I doubt I could make them doubles either lol. Well... I may SORT OF make them.... and mostly survive.
Dave, nice video.
Well done to the volunteers who give up their time to work on the trails at Penmachno. I know how much effort and hard work goes into rpairing/upgrading trails. As has been mentioned in many previous posts Penmachno is a trail centre, if folk don't want to ride there, then don't, but don't insult folk who give up their spare time to repair trails which are free to use.
If you have not been there, please do. It'ts worth the ride out. Spend money and support the locals.
Cheers,
Steve,NWMBA.
I'm with you.. I doubt I could make them doubles either lol. Well... I may SORT OF make them.... and mostly survive.
You very may well make a double (with a good run in), but it's the one after and the next etc which would be a challenge. I wa excited to see it coming and thought I was in for a blast of a treat. IMHO they'd have been better off making it steppy and techy; far some suited to a lack of gradient and also in keeping with the remainder of the trail.
I don't see that anyone has insulted any volunteer trail builders/repairers at all. Have they actually been mentioned at all?
wrecker - Member
I don't see that anyone has insulted any volunteer trail builders/repairers at all. Have they actually been mentioned at all?
I'm certainly not knocking them. Full credit to their efforts and always support anyone building trails.
My only concern is it being out of keeping with the nature of the place. A bit of this kind of stuff at CYB and Afan is fine. They're big trail centres constantly evolving and expanding, and it provides more variety. Penmachno though has always been a place you go to get old school style trails the way I see it.
Still, we'll see how it goes. My earlier mocking was tongue in cheek. As I mentioned I wasn't a fan because of the tedious fireroad links, and if it provides fun bits instead of fireroad then great.
FFSThe old stuff is still there! This is not replacing anything - the existence of this trail takes nothing away from you. So what the hell are you moaning about?
I'm definitely not moaning. What I was doing, and maybe didn't word brilliantly is that this style of trail represents the style that lots of people who are into modern mountain biking like, as a contrast to what people used to like (that old nadgery slow "no dabs" tech stuff which I have always hated).
I think it's great to mix it up at a trail centre (and Penmachno most definitely is a trail centre, albeit a slightly different type and as yet, without facilities), or else it would be stuck in the past and could well lose rider numbers and so value to the local economy.
Ultimately though it's new trail sections at a pretty cool place, which you can ride for free. That's a good thing.
My view having ridden Penmachno a lot but not the new trail is:
Any money spent on trails in the UK is a good thing
Currently it costs nothing to ride there (but you should stick a quid or two in the voluntary box) so investment is even better!
This replaces fire road which is great 🙂
However, could they spent the money differently? If this section is mainly flat, could they have made it more technical singletrack? Would that have cost more money?
Also, my other worry is the trend this might set, getting in bog standard council contractors to build new trails.
So in general this is a good thing, but could of been better and could set a worrying trend.
that this style of trail represents the style that lots of people who are into modern mountain biking like
Really? Any evidence for this or is it just a hunch?
^dont you think the popularity of Cannock, Llandegla, Glentress, C-y-B, etc is evidence enough?^
I do however know Andy, the mountain bike ranger who was in charge of the build.
Don't think he was to be honest .
dont you think the popularity of Cannock, Llandegla, Glentress, C-y-B, etc is evidence enough?^
What about the popularity of natural trails too? Plenty of people on them too. A look around the car park through a pair of misery coloured glasses is hardly good evidence.
Personally, I like variety, and I welcome it. We now have greater choice in riding than ever before. This can only be good.
We now have greater choice in riding than ever before. This can only be good.
they will be round with the pitch forks, there is only one kind of valid mountain biking and it's the kind [b]I[/b] do.
Don't you come round here with your new fangled ideas and fun clap trap.
nonk - Member
I do however know Andy, the mountain bike ranger who was in charge of the build.
Don't think he was to be honest .
If he wasn't then my apologies. It's just that he's normally looking after trail construction around various forests in North Wales.
they will be round with the pitch forks, there is only one kind of valid mountain biking and it's the kind I do.Don't you come round here with your new fangled ideas and fun clap trap.
I don't really think that's the case, but for me, the appeal of Penmachno was that it didn't have the new-style trail sections and feel of a trail centre. I'm happy to ride them, but it'd be nice to have at least one trail centre that didn't include them. What's wrong with the odd low-key waymarked trail, sympathetic to the countryside and offering something away from the bike-park experience?
What's wrong with the odd low-key waymarked trail, sympathetic to the countryside and offering something away from the bike-park experience?
Well, I think the idea is that if they waymark a trail for horses or bikes, it'll get lots of traffic, and if it does then the trail surface needs upgrading.. which is how you end up with trail centres.
You can still ride the fire-road at Penmachno by the sound of it, so you can keep it as it was. Fire roads are much more low key and natural of course 🙂
So some chat on Google+ about this (yes the place isn't dead yet 😛 ), and [i]DestinationConwy [/i]replied to my at the time negative reaction with the following, which does explain what's going on and indicates it should evolve into the same style as the original trails. Plus very good point on it being a solution to the fireroads which were one of my main issues with the place anyway.
Copied their reply below...
[i]"We understand where you’re coming from – we love the current trails and our dream was to build 2 sections of skinny, challenging singletrack that would blend perfectly with the current trails. We spoke to the crew who built the original trails so we could replicate the specification, however, it turned out that when the trails were first built they were wide (around 80cm), and rolling, and it’s taken 10 years of riding to turn them into the amazing singletrack they are today! One of the reasons for the original construction method is because the Penmachno ground is so wet (not that you’d notice!!!), so a wide base/platform needs to be put in so the trail doesn’t disappear into the Penmachno bog. At this point we could see our dream disappearing so considered a hand built trail, which would allow a narrower trail to be built. However, it was super-expensive and left us with 2 options – 1 short section of narrow hand-built or 2 long sections of wider machine built trail. After a lot of deliberating we went for the second option, on the basis that it was how the original trail was built and that in a few years it will narrow up, ride-in and evolve into true Penmachno singletrack. Plus it would replacing riding along forest track so it would be a definite improvement. It has been a painful learning process which has included a few shattered dreams for the community team, however, we have learned to look beyond what are 2 very new and uniform sections of trail and see what they’ll be like in a few years time when they’ve ridden in. So, we totally understand where you’re coming from but hopefully you’ll enjoy them more than riding on forest track and in a few years time you’ll love them!!!"?[/i]
Rode the enduro there at the weekend, hadn't been there before and loved it. Great mix of tough natural narrow singletrack and new stuff. The new stuff is a great repalcement for a fire road. I am sure the haters can ride the old fire road instead.
Given that, deadkenny, I think the video does them a disservice as it looks like they're trying to make out that the new trail is teh awesumz.
Some good insight there. Thanks Deadkenny.
For what it's worth......
I love Penmachno. It's a hidden gem. While everyone else stops off at Llandegla and queues up in a line to go down the next section, I can be blasting down singletrack with not a sole in sight. Now that the new section has been done and with this video, I just hope it doesn't pull to many people away from their pampered trail centre. The new sections look good to me and will just add to an already top trail. Planning my next visit soon, hope it's quiet.. 😀
If that really is just replacing fireroads then I'll definitely be going next time I'm up that way as I really like the Penmachno apart from the fireroads. Just hope they don't tame to many of the other bits as that's what makes it different to most other centres.
I can be blasting down singletrack with not a sole in sight
Feet firmly on the ground...?
