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I need to look after my 2017 Solaris max well then. Really good buying experience with test loops on different sizes riding proper trails out from the old Calver HQ, was able to pick up the frame with a hope headset fitted and all faced.
It's been a really good bike, it has done a lot of local peak district trails, Wales, lakes and further. It's been round various trail centers and even a bit of road and gravel esque stuff.
Great for bikepacking including the jenn ride 3 times and other grips.
Here it is today in winter mode on a very wet, rocky climb up Blacka moor
chakapingFree Member
Cotic make great bikes but they’ve usually been for normal riders, not the kind of ponces who buy the expensive brands mentioned in comparison above.
Shand, stooge and swift mentioned, which are you referring to?
RE other companies doing the Taiwan frame thing – it’s cyclical, I think – prices for each manufacturer change when they start selling a new batch of frames. It just so happens to fall that Cotic are the first and most visible in this particular round of increases. I’d be expecting all the other co’s to be racking up the prices when they all have new batches land – but they might not shout about it so much. It might not be quite as much as Cotic have done to get the Euro production, but it won’t be far off – Cy wouldn’t have made that decision if it wasn’t viable.
Which is all fine but doesn't explain why Cotic have decided to charge almost double their competition for a similar frame. Others might go up when new models arrive but it won't be to anything like £1200!
£1200 for a European made frame designed by someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to UK style riding that is going to be low volume compared to the Trek/Giants of the cycling world doesn't sound that bad to me.
I have a Cotic Cascade, made in the far east and it rides brilliantly, if the Solaris is as good and I've no doubt it will be I'd have no qualms about spending that money.
You'd end up with a well designed and fairly exclusive (and lets face it we all want something a bit different from what everyone else has) frame that perfectly matches the trails we ride on every weekend
Shand, stooge and swift mentioned, which are you referring to?
Haha, thought that might trigger people. I was thinking of Mason and Fairlight. Maybe Shand.
Stooges are for former singlespeeders who need to feel special now that they're using gears again, and I didn't realise Swift were still going.
Swift are taking preorders and are back, as above £999 including forks.
£1200 for a European made frame designed by someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to UK style riding that is going to be low volume compared to the Trek/Giants of the cycling world doesn’t sound that bad to me.
Do they know what they're doing any better than Pace or Orange? Since when has an Eastern European built frame been a desirable option?
Do they know what they’re doing any better than Pace or Orange? Since when has an Eastern European built frame been a desirable option?
Have Pace actually made anything worth having since the RC200? And the Orange hardtails are nothing special, I've had 3 of them, just generic reasonably good hardtails that have been around for ages. Be interesting to see the price of any new model though
Cascade was £719 without the fork when I bought mine, now its £819 without the fork. Thats £400 difference to the Solaris, just for being made in eastern europe! The Cascade was too much really, but I got it and the carbon Salsa fork on bike to work scheme so was ok... I don't think I'd be able to justify the Solaris at £1200.
Good few years ago I know, but I had a mk2 Solaris, which I wish I'd never sold, but I think I paid £385 or something for the frame and a Hope headset! Reduced as it was about the last one they had.
You guys wishing you'd never sold your old Solarises, get on eBay and get one cheap now.
I sometimes feel like that about my mk2 (which I bought from an STWer and sold to a different one), but now I do the same riding on my lovely steel gravel bike - which was less than £1,200 for the full bike 😉
@chakaping - I've got the Cascade now, set up with flat bars. Its pretty much what the old solaris was, albeit rigid rather than a HT. If I'd kept the mk2 Solaris I wouldn;t have bought the Cascade.
Cascade is great BTW.
Taiwanese mass production/lower wages, whereas this is a bit more realistic and is a lot closer to an artisan product.
fabricators in taiwan aren’t paid badly. it isn’t a 3rd world country.
i lived in CZ in the 90’s. i’m pretty sure fort bikes were about at that time (happy to be corrected on that). i don’t think they are any more artisan than 5 land bikes.
rOcKeTdOg
Full Member
£1200 for a European made frame designed by someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to UK style riding that is going to be low volume compared to the Trek/Giants of the cycling world doesn’t sound that bad to me.
Yeah, but "£800 for a Taiwan made frame designed by someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to UK style riding that is going to be low volume compared to the Trek/Giants of the cycling world" sounds lot better
I don't think "made in Czech" has all that much appeal.
@chakaping – I’ve got the Cascade now, set up with flat bars. Its pretty much what the old solaris was, albeit rigid rather than a HT. If I’d kept the mk2 Solaris I wouldn;t have bought the Cascade.
Nice, I think I've seen your pics of it on here before actually?
And +1 on the "rather have a Taiwanese one for a more reasonable price"
We've all obviously got a lot of respect and goodwill toward Cotic, but I'll be surprised if this price sticks.
Just repeating what I said before... Cotic still has frames built in Taiwan... hardtail wise that means the BFeMAX*. Should Cotic only have frames built in Taiwan? If price is all, and nothing else matters, then you may say yes. Diversifying and also building in Europe (including the UK) is a long term plan that's been rolling out over many years now... and it's happening for many reasons. A supply chain that is wholly dependent on Taiwan just doesn't make sense to any of us at Cotic any more... but we're still working with the factory there... there's lots more to come.
[ EDIT: *oh and more BFe soon as well, for those still wanting to rag 275 wheels ]
Eastern European built frame been a desirable option
Czechia is in central europe, like germany. they have traditionally been great engineers. their steel and turbines were/are the best in europe, if not the world.
not sure if this thread has been running long enough to mention the nazis, but one of the reasons for them invading czechoslovakia was to gain access to the heavy engineering and gun manufacturing abilities.
@kelvin - is there any proof that a European welder creates a better bike using the same tubes than a Taiwanese welder?
Otherwise, the benefits from supply chain really only benefit Cotic, not the consumer, if you exclude the ESG benefits. I guess the ultimate choice is that provided by Stanton where they have/had a choice between Far East and locally produced bikes at different price points. Then you let the consumer decide.
Judging by the comments on here, Cotic built their reputation on good value great riding Taiwanese bikes. Your consumers will decide whether the new pricing and sourcing model works, but you have moved the Solarismax from one price and quality category (circa £600) to a very different one (circa £1200) which brings other competitors into your consumers' buying decision that might not previously considered them.
Other than from an ESG perspective, is there a tangible reason why a consumer should pay extra for an EU built bike?
Local/EU build premium is understandable for a custom product, but not for a mass produced product. The Cotic full suspension bikes stack up very competitively vs the competition in terms of price. The hardtails do not. It feels like a very inconsistent approach to pricing architecture (unless of course this is the trojan horse ahead of the full sussers increasing in price too).
Local/EU build premium is understandable for a custom product, but not for a mass produced product.
Why? Should everything be built the other side of the world if it's not a one off?
If "ESG" doesn't matter to you, that's your call. If everyone takes that approach, and cost is all that matters, than even Taiwan bike production makes no sense, and all brands will shift to China (many "premium" brands already have).
The last decade has shown us multiple reasons for a company like Cotic not to only build and ship from a single very distant location... and who dares guess what the next decade will bring. Rising prices in Taiwan, for sure. More shipping accidents? Pandemics? Currency swings? Local political turmoil? Diversifying supply chains makes sense to us when thinking longer term, beyond just "ESG". Cotic isn't in it just for the short term.
I repeat again though, Cotic still has hardtails built in Taiwan, just not this one model.
@solarider has pretty much written what I'd have responded to kelvin there(minus my typos and with a degree of eloquence added)
Rising prices in Taiwan, for sure. More shipping accidents? Pandemics? Currency swings? Local political turmoil? Diversifying supply chains makes sense to us when thinking longer term, beyond just “ESG”.
How do any of those benefit ride quality? As I said, all benefits to Cotic rather the consumer. You are expecting your consumer to pay more for the same because of your sourcing decisions. Bold move.
On the upside, your full sussers suddenly look even better value.
Feels like I am having a pop. Not the case. As a former Cotic owner, you make great bikes!
Building a sustainable, flexible and more responsive supply chain, which also ensures and builds on the quality of the product, is about taking the long term view. Knowing that the company you buy a bike from is thinking that way might not matter, beyond knowing the support will extend well beyond the initial purchase of a bike, everyone has to make that call.
But, again, Taiwanese production goes on. The next batch of BFe are finished and well be with us real soon, and Escapades are next in Taiwan... both have been seriously delayed though, which has been difficult for customers waiting. A shorter closer supply chain is good for customers too. Our relationship with Fiveland in Scotland for example hasn't just been good for us, it's been great for customers too.
Diversifying and also building in Europe (including the UK) is a long term plan that’s been rolling out over many years now… and it’s happening for many reasons. A supply chain that is wholly dependent on Taiwan just doesn’t make sense to any of us at Cotic any more… but we’re still working with the factory there… there’s lots more to come.
This makes sense.
While initially the benefit may be towards Cotic, I can see long term how a move to manufacture closer to where bikes are sold, and having multiple suppliers could well benefit customers.
There is however a price to pay initially....
kelvin
Our relationship with Fiveland in Scotland for example hasn’t just been good for us, it’s been great for customers too.
But didn't Fiveland delivere those benefits without the 30/40% price rise?
"If ESG doesn't matter to you" is all well, but the extra 400 quid matters to everyone. And a BFe may be Cotic's hardtail alternative, but it's a pretty different bike, and other alternatives (Pipedream Sirius, etc) are probably what they will turn to.
All UK full-suss frames carry a premium over the Taiwan made ones. The premium isn't a % one though, it's a fixed one based entirely on the additional cost of manufacturing the front end, and finishing the whole frame. The rear end is still Taiwan built.
And that’s the challenge I guess with the Solarismax. With no shock or rear end, the entirety of the EU production premium is applied to the frame whereas it is a lesser part of the overall cost of a full susser.
Tough times and I applaud your approach. Just don’t be surprised if cash strapped consumers don’t consider that the ethical premium is worth it, or choose something else. I know that time moves on and it might be an outdated perception that you are looking to change but it would appear that Cotic resides in consumers’ minds as a £600 Taiwanese bargain rather than a £1,200 artisan work of art.
All very easy to say as an armchair expert, and I am sure behind closed doors you all agonised about the price increase. Nobody does that lightly. I am sure if you could offer an EU built £600 hardtail you would!
I guess the ultimate question is that if you can still make the BFe in Taiwan with all of the drawbacks you have outlined, why not the Solarismax too? Surely the same reasons for the EU being a better location also apply to the BFe along with your rear ends. Seems like you are happy with that contradiction. Or are we facing the last hurrah of the Far Eastern BFe and rear ends……
Well, that's why Cotic still make hardtails in Taiwan, just not this one.
People will still buy the cake from time to time. They’ll just stop buying expensive bikes full stop. As can be seen with the state of the bike industry now.
Unlike the cake, which has been eaten, your previous bike still exists. And that may be part of the problem, combined with the post-covid slump - what does this Solaris give me that your or my current hardtail does not?
I've been at this mtbing game for about a decade. The first half of that was a proper arms race of notable and exciting performance upgrades. Wheel sizes, head and seat angles, dropper posts going from curiosity to near-mandatory, 1x gears; along with all the confusing standards and details that allowed these things to happen.
The second half however, not a huge amount has changed.... except the price*.
My two bikes are a 2020 full sus (bought 2021) and a 2017 hardtail (bought 2019). I can't see how any current "equivilent" bike makes a massive improvement, apart from my full sus having an unfashionably small front wheel they are all pretty much up to date, at least from an average practical user's point of view.
*not going to blame any of the bike industry players for this. Covid demand, evergiven supply and brexit tax/exchange rate have combined to shaft the british bike consumer. I'll guess that Cy is having the same number of lobster dinners and using the same number of £50 notes as napkins as he did in 2019 - none.
My personal hardtail is from 2018, and my full suss from 2016. You don't have to keep changing your bike every few years (although 2024 is likely to be when my full suss changes for me)... that's true even without the inflation and industry changes of the past 5 or so years. And there's plenty of clearance stock out there if you do have to get a new bike and your budget is tight... especially if you're happy with 10 speed and the older damper technology of the previous decade, and can do without the geom progression. The bike industry as a whole really isn't out to screw us... and that's even more true of the smaller independent brands. I take the fact that in the main (ignoring freehub bodies and electronic gears) things have settled down compatibility wise as a positive thing... it means more reuse. You can buy a new bike when it offers you ride advantages, or you simply fancy it, not because of chasing changing "standards".
When the new Solaris was announced in December 2022 the frame only price was £849. I'm assuming that Taiwan prices have (conservatively( risen 10% ish percent in the past year, so that would take an ex Taiwan frame closer to £949.
I can see why moving production to Europe makes sense, especially if you want to expand sales in the EU, as it does away with import tariffs for both UK and EU sales.
It's a bit spendy, but wouldn't put me off considering it, but then I'm a fully paid up cotic fanboy.
The sad fact is that the price of virtually everything has gone through the roof in the past three years (see yeti frame prices for example)
Like I said at the start would recommend to anyone for the same style of riding as me. 👍
I have the solution everyone. Instead of making them in Czechia, bring the whole production to scotland. Might seem impossible, since five lands are already pretty much flat out- but that's the genius part, they're just along the road from me, so I'll do the welding on the budget option frames. It'll save a fortune. And we don't have to worry about warranty returns because everyone who rides one will die in a fireball
Well, 10 years ago I paid a bit over a grand for a steel frameset that's still doing well so it's been great value.
The Solaris could be a similar bike for me as I always liked shorter travel XC bikes with that kind of approach to geometry. It's not cheap but +£300 for the right frame wouldn't be make or break if I saw long term value in it. Would be my pick for that kind of bike anyway.
Hmm, some of my replies make no sense after the posts they were replying to were edited to remove the questions/points I was replying to. Ah well, never mind. I’ll include the quotes in future, lesson learnt.
What colour is that one Dan? I don’t recognise it.
Price of the brick goin' up. Yeah, it's a jump, but having the manufacturers close and on the same(ish) timezone is a good thing, for everyone. When the RocketMAXs had to go back to Five Lands for the little gusset plate thing, it was barely a couple of week's wait. Can you imagine if they had to be shipped back to Taiwan?
Every interaction I've ever had with Cotic has been overwhelming positive, they're decent folk who make nice stuff. I probably won't buy one, but it's not exactly into Santa Cruz/Yeti/Cervelo money, is it?
Maybe we just had it too good (read: cheap) for too long. Do you want decent stuff, made by people getting a fair wage, from people who know what they're doing who actually give a toss and will offer support and honour warranty.... or do you want an On One? The choice is still there, there's just a new option.
If I was on the market for a new bike again, like I was last year, buying a bike like I do for 10 years plus, I would still pluck for a Solaris, knowing what I know now.
My current SolarisMax is the best bike I've had. It does everything I want it to and I have no doubt that it will keep going for a long time. Would I pay the higher cost now, probably. I would look around, but for my style of riding and the go anywhere nature of it, it's worth it. 
When a decent full-suss frame of similar nature costs at least double (and sometimes triple or more) what a hardtail SolarisMAX costs, I don't see the SolarisMAX as particularly poor value. I admit seeing the price resulted in a small, sharp intake of breath here too, but perhaps we're conditioned to hardtails costing less than they actually should?
A nice hardtail is something to be enjoyed but I suspect a lot of folk see a hardtail as more of tool than they do a full-susser ('hardtails for mucky winter') and hence expect to pay accordingly, i.e. less.
Caveat all that with saying I'm a bit of a Cotic fanboi and dropping a lot of money on a Cascade frame/fork a few months ago didn't involve much procrastination from me. Personally I'm all in favour of bringing the manufacturing closer to the UK - it's another of the reasons both my FSers are alloy-made in Germany.
My Cascade, two hours ago on this morning's pre-work, pre-dawn skoosh around the local trails:
Have Pace actually made anything worth having since the RC200? And the Orange hardtails are nothing special, I’ve had 3 of them, just generic reasonably good hardtails that have been around for ages.
I assume you've not ridden one of the 853 Pace hard tails then? I have and the ride and finish is ace, so much so that I can't see how much better a 'generic reasonably good' Cotic is going to be to make it worth almost twice the price?
Nothing against Cotic and have considered them in the past but having asked earlier if there's anything special about this £1200 frame (hand made, built from something expensive, fancy paint job, etc?) and not having any response I can only conclude it's a decent frame, built in decent numbers, just like a Pace, Orange, Stif, Nordest, etc, etc, but at a much higher price. Being built in Europe would not be a reason for me to pay more for a similar product where as I would for something UK hand built.
It's a bold strategy by them to expect the customer to pay so much more for fundamentally the same product, just built in another country. Many people might but if I was going to chose a Solarismax over a significantly cheaper competitor I'd need it to offer something other than being built a bit closer to the UK.
A lot of the frames mentioned above aren’t really comparable. What if I don’t want a 150mm fork (pace) 69deg head angle (singular) or lower end tubing (orange)?
The real close rivals are…
Sherpa 853 £999 (sold out of gen 3)
Fairlight Holt £999 (27.2 seat tube)
Curtis XC9 £1550 (unsagged reach on a large is 475 which means 490 sagged and is not customisable)
Mason Raw £1700 (it’s £1700)
They’re also giving a discount to anyone who preordered at the old price. So I’m keeping my order in but TBF expect them to be pretty rare out on the trails.
I could well be wrong but thought the brands you mentioned were a bit more small volume, fancy pants, in the know type rather than a more mass produced outfit like Cotic? That's why I compared them to who I did, rather than because an 853 Pace RC529 has a different geometry?
*Editted to say most of the bikes you mention are hand made in the UK, some with custom options. Comparing the Cotic with those just shows how overpriced it is IMO.
Anyway, I'm out. If decent quality (but pretty normal) steel frames are going north of £1000 I'll be sticking with what I've got.
Geometry is free anyway.
That list (Sherpa, holt, xc9, raw… and solaris) is the short list I could come up with of 120mm frames with modern geo, 853 or equivalent tubing and a good rep for ride quality (otherwise why bother with steel?) Ignoring where they are made or whether they are fancy pants.
I’m interested if there are any missed?
I agree with hoo-koo-e-koo's synopsis and comparison but would also add the Shand Bahookie to it as another option.
I've watched the Solaris with interest as so nearly pressed the button on the SolarisMax (Midnight Blue) many times and do wish i had now as it seemed affordable as a 2nd bike/frame but think the Solaris might be too expensive now but will wait and see what the details are like when they release images and how it compares to the others....
If i had the cash now i would probably go for the Fairlight Holt as i think these are really well put together, very well detailed and still £1K and the lavender colour is nice. I also wouldn't be surprised if these are made in the same factory as the Solaris as they state they are made in central Europe.
or I'll continue to look for a 2nd hand Solaris Max in Midnight Blue
I’m really curious about why there seem to be no reviews in existence of the Holt given it’s been out a year and Fairlight have a history of such big hits.
It was the lack of dropper choice and travel that knocked it off my list though.