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or I’ll continue to look for a 2nd hand Solaris Max in Midnight Blue
What size @fenboy? I can keep my eyes open for one as well.
it would be an XL frame only, appreciate it
Pretty sure there was one up in Elgin in green on Facebook
Seems that getting anything out of Taiwan at the moment is a very slow process at best. I’ve a frame on order from another company that I’ve now been waiting for 5 months on.
I’m on my second Solaris…. The 2018 model that I picked up second hand a month before the pandemic for £200. Before that I had the mk2 which cost me around £599 new I think. I still miss that one!
Cotic has always been fantastic to deal with and the bikes are great- I’ve done around 9000 miles on Solaris’s-. But blimey that’s a price jump.
I have an XL Soda Max for sale (not advertised yet) if interested!
Ide rather have a Marley 290/big al bth at nearly 90 per cent less.
I agree. Not even sure which bike would be the most comfortable, not that frame material has much of an influence compared to tyre choice for instance.
I think the "steel is real" bollocks has a lot to answer for.
Nothing wrong with steel of course but £1,200 😂
People complaining about bike prices going up remind me strongly of the people who complain that Radio 1, then 6 Music is no longer relevant to them.
People complaining about bike prices going up remind me strongly of the people who complain that Radio 1, then 6 Music is no longer relevant to them.
No idea what your post means or infers nor who it's aimed at but I think bike prices have never been such good value than currently. Which doesn't change my opinion that £1,200 for a simple steel frame is very poor VFM. I have just built a fairly nice spec Big Al for £100 less than that. For the complete bike.
I do appreciate that value is quite a subjective metric though so if someone is happy to pay that, then each to their own 😉
People complaining about bike prices going up remind me strongly of the people who complain that Radio 1, then 6 Music is no longer relevant to them.
This applies to the price of a number of things - we've had 15-20 years of low or zero inflation. Thats at the minimum, a good chunk of people's adult lives. They have an idea of what things cost and it upsets them when that changes because all they have known is price stability.
No idea what your post means or infers nor who it’s aimed at but I think bike prices have never been such good value than currently. Which doesn’t change my opinion that £1,200 for a simple steel frame is very poor VFM. I have just built a fairly nice spec Big Al for £100 less than that. For the complete bike.
I do appreciate that value is quite a subjective metric though so if someone is happy to pay that, then each to their own 😉
No worries pal. You’re the one comparing equipment bought in a literal liquidation sale and a company launching a new European made frame project. If you can’t understand the difference seem to be wanting to compare apples to oranges no worries.
Just seems there’s a lot of “Hope you end up bankrupt you hipster ****s!” vibes around here which is a shame.
Comparing an aluminium Ragley frame in a fire sale to a new 853 Cotic makes almost as little sense as that comment about radio listeners.
No worries pal. You’re the one comparing equipment bought in a literal liquidation sale and a company launching a new European made frame project. If you can’t understand the difference seem to be wanting to compare apples to oranges no worries.
It does seem to worry you. Simply take the RRP of the Big Al frame at launch then and see what delta remains, if any.
I have no issues if you find £1,200 good VFM for a simple steel frame, perhaps you don't understand the industrial reality of basic frame building even in Europe? Either way, no worries Pal.
Just seems there’s a lot of “Hope you end up bankrupt you hipster ****!” vibes around here which is a shame.
I haven't seen any in this thread, but again, be a straight shooter, who do you mean?
I find schadenfreude detestable too btw.
Comparing an aluminium Ragley frame in a fire sale to a new 853 Cotic makes almost as little sense as that comment about radio listeners.
Personally I think it is an excellent benchmark for value, even comparing RRP to RRP.
I could see how the steel frame could be twice the price btw. But 3.3 times the RRP? Extremely poor VFM for me, no less, no more. No hipsters need to be ridiculed though. Nor strawman arguments started.
well this is taking an interesting turn....
two more pages.
perhaps you don’t understand the industrial reality of basic frame building even in Europe?
perhaps you should go read up who started Ragley.
LOL - Brant talking to nickfrog... 🤣 🤣
Interesting people suggesting prices haven't gone up for years when all the £6/7/800 steel frames were £3/400 not so long ago!
Don't think anyone wants Cotic to fail Brant, I certainly don't but it just seems strange they have taken their product out of one price bracket where similar frames are available and plonked it in another price bracket, where people maybe expect more than a decent, factory built frame from a reasonably large manufacturer?
Who knows, maybe everyone else will follow and £1000 will become the new normal for good quality steel frames?
Arrgghh, dragged back in.....
I think my feeling on the price hike is (almost) directly related to the fact my pay hasn't increased by a similar percentage, and won't be. It's not Cotic's fault, and I still think the frame looks excellent, and understand why they are doing it. So my mild disappointment at the price being more firmly out of my reach is understandable.
I was looking at the Pasta Party the other day, and it looks fantastic, though I don't want an EBB. The geo of their Crumble is closer to the Solaris, though increased fork travel. Made in Saxony! There's a Sour dealer in Hove doing Crumble's for £950, they should get some Pasta Party's in! Still can't afford them though.
perhaps you should go read up who started Ragley.
I know exactly who started it. And my comment still stands.
I could see how the steel frame could be twice the price btw. But 3.5 times the RRP?
While I appreciate VFM can mean a lot of things and I'm not getting into that I'd estimate the landed cost difference between Asia-made Al frame and an EU made 853 frame at 4-6x even with Asia to UK shipping at higher cost than it's current rate.
Out-the-door price of an average decent Al frame in Asia is cheap as chips.
If anything, going on cost prices I'd say the average distributed brand's Al frame these days could be cheaper rather than quality steel frames like this being overpriced. £1200 is premium, sure, but it's not unreasonable for what it is imo.
I’d just like to say that as soon as someone uses the word “delta” instead of “difference” I mark them down as a certain sort of individual…
Thinking a ibit more about this. yes the price hike is a bit of a shock to us who remember the old souls at £450, but that's 2 decades ago. I think I've not really looked at frame prices that much over the last decade, so may have been a bit quick to judge, off the back of some steel hardtail bargains. I think I'm still stuck considering Cotics as a posh on one, and that Pace have always been a little high on price point.
however, just having a look at marino, the benchmark cheap custom hardtail. these are coming in aound £900 for 853 when you consider shipping, import and duty. So maybe £1200 isn't that far off what is to be expected.
this to me means that the prospect of being able to afford a new bike is slipping further away, faster than any wage rise, which sounds about right given the current financial state.
Well that took a lot of getting through.....
Basically everything Kelvin said. And Brant (apart from the radio thing). We need to spread the risk of our production and move it out of Taiwan. We want to reduce our carbon footprint. Both of these things are more expensive. We have made a decision to keep us safe in the longer term.
And also the guy who mentioned inflation on our quoted Taiwan price. Solaris was launched nearly a year ago at £849. That was a jump from before, but based on nothing more than cost escalations. Based on what we see now from our vendors and the fact that the pound exchange is in the toilet, they probably would have needed to be at least £949 eventually. That's all a moot point because actually getting them at any price from Taiwan has proved extremely difficult. Changing to Fort meant Actually Getting Frames, which as a brand who sells things is quite important. Even if that means selling fewer frames at a higher price. It's a my brand, my business and a choice I made to protect me, my staff and our planet. If that "doesn't benefit you as a rider", sobeit, but you'll excuse me for looking out for me and mine. So far, we only lost about 10% of our pre-orders with the announcement of the higher price. I thank all those people who are hanging with us from the bottom of my heart.
Finally, to all of you thinking this is about greed, **** off. Yes, it's even handed Cy from Cotic telling you to go **** yourself. 2023 has been without doubt the hardest, most stressful year of my professional life. This is simply the price of the frame at our normal margins based on higher manufacturing costs. No ones scoring Porsches out of this. I'm offended you would think that's the case.
I have a family and 7 people and their families here who rely on Cotic for their livelihoods I have taken on a lot to keep us together. Doing the same old thing doesn't work anymore. So I did something different to keep us safe for the future. No thanks to the broader industry supply chain and politicians. Our customers are amazing, supportive, and part of the family. I hope to gain some more, but if not, I gave it my best shot.
Well, I've not got much work done this morning, quite the read...
I have to say my initial reaction to the new price for the Solaris (they've dropped the MAX moniker) was 'ouch'. But having read this thread, not so much. I've had 6 Cotic bikes, still own 2 now: a Gen 1 Flare and a Cascade, the latter only built this summer. I'm a tightwad descended from farming stock, so both of my current frames came from end of batch sales, and now look exceptionally good value for money. £1,200 is a big price hike, but anyone who's ever dealt with Cy and his team will know they're a great bunch and really not in this game to profiteer from their customers and get filthy rich. The service I've received from Cotic has always been 5 star - they respond to emails quickly, accommodate all sorts of requests and custom builds, and even answer the phone! I bent Paul's ear for a good half hour when ordering my Cascade to ensure I made the right choices, we had a good laugh and did some real bike nerding.
I've looked at Shand, Fairlight, Stanton etc etc, all have their quirks and benefits, but for me nobody else gets as much right as Cotic do with their finished products, hence I've had so many. I really ought to have kept my MK2 Solaris as the Cascade is very close to it in many ways, but it's been a nice journey in between in any case... I had toyed with the idea of combining my 2 Cotics into a new Solaris, but given that used stuff isn't selling (unless it's for a pittance) and the price rise, that's off the cards, my bikes are still great and I'll just keep riding them.
We all know what the bike industry is going through, and I'm sure selling some bikes is better than none from Cy's perspective! As always, if you don't want one or can't afford one, then don't press buy, other people will!
Thanks Cy and I'm sorry now for starting this thread really. Think though it also demonstrates that the Cotic family is still strong and will support you for the future.
My Solarismax like I said at the start is my go to bike but the Flare max full suss sits right behind it!
Hope to catch up with you guys again for a ride next year 👍
There are very very few companies that I would recommend without any hesitation at all and Cotic is one of those. Customer service which goes above and beyond (answering emails at 9pm on a Sunday night!), ethically strong, fabulous bikes and they support the MTB scene as well. About 10 years ago I had a long chat with Cy at a trade show and came away with a completely different view of what was important to me when buying a bike.
I have a Gen 1 Flaremax, Gen 2 Solaris, and Gen 2 (I think) Escapade. After seeing and experiencing warranty issues with many of the big brands, and customer service issues with many retailers, when I'm at a point where when I need a new bike it won't be "which brand", it'll be "which Cotic".
Yes, I'm a fan, no I don't work for them.
@Cy another thank you from me.
Sorry to see the difficulties you're working through with the messed up industry and UK political situation adding complexity. The missing XS Cascades this autumn have been a blow to our planned expansion of the household Cotic collection but don't worry, we'll most likely be back again at the next purchase point. I still fancy a Jeht with Z1. Might be able to afford it by next autumn..
And for those looking at prices of alternative frames, have you seen what Shand are now charging for a Bahookie....? Makes the Solaris look like excellent value!
As a Solaris max owner (brilliant bike that has been great for all my riding here in the lakes) I benefitted from a no cost demo in Borrowdale of a range of bikes, a great build, great communication and the feeling I had bought something special, and that warm glow remains. I hope @cy that things improve after what sounds a tough year, after reading your reply I’m off to the website to see if anything else takes my fancy!
I’d just like to say that as soon as someone uses the word “delta” instead of “difference” I mark them down as a certain sort of individual…
I certainly wouldn't. I tend to only judge people based on who they are as people rather than a very particular semantic choice. What sort of individual do you think they are? They might just be from a professional background where it is the default term like me, or perhaps English is merely their second or even third language. Would you prefer them to be more careful so that they don't trigger such irrational and narrow minded pre-judgement from you?
I had a warranty issue with a Cotic. It was fixed very quickly and with no hassle. I contrast that to the multiple sleepless nights I had with a bloody expensive sofa that fell apart and the maker was a total arse about it.
Yes £1200 is a lot. But if you love the bike and get great customer service, then maybe it's worth saving for....A bike shouldn't be disposable impulse, but something you treasure for years.
Another happy member of the cotic club here with my flaremax. I was a bit sceptical about a steel full sus but it's such a fun and capable bike. Also nice to have a bike designed and tested around my local trails. Never had a cotic hardtail but I'll probably scratch that itch one day.
Good luck Cy and the team 👍
anyone who’s ever dealt with Cy and his team will know they’re a great bunch and really not in this game to profiteer from their customers and get filthy rich. The service I’ve received from Cotic has always been 5 star – they respond to emails quickly, accommodate all sorts of requests and custom builds, and even answer the phone! I bent Paul’s ear for a good half hour when ordering my Cascade to ensure I made the right choices, we had a good laugh and did some real bike nerding. .
this 1 million percent! Im on my 3rd Cotic. Got a Rocket Max last year just before the current one was release. I emailed them to ask a few questions they told me the new one was coming incase i wanted to wait (it had not been made public yet), I didnt went and got the old one then few weeks after my purchase they discounted the old one and refunded the difference. I didn't ask for it they just emailed saying they would as it was the right thing to do.
Yes £1200 is a lot. But if you love the bike and get great customer service, then maybe it’s worth saving for….A bike shouldn’t be disposable impulse, but something you treasure for years.
and this!
Well this thread has made me more likely to buy a Cotic, not less. My next hardtail will be a Solaris or a Holt.
Great reply @cy and good luck, I've always loved your brand, and so sorry that you've had a tough time recently.
I’ve really learnt stuff from this thread. Certainly more not less likely to buy a Cotic.
@cy I hope 2024 is less stressful and things settle down.
“What sort of individual do you think they are? They might just be from a professional background…”
We already have a word for difference, it’s difference. If you want to talk to me about heat exchangers or other engineering things where ∆T is the accepted terminology then that’s sensible. In any other context it sounds like you’re saying either “I’m an engineer!” or “I’m a corporate type who thinks science terminology makes me sound more important”.
Difference is not an obscure or esoteric word. I’ve never come across anyone for whom English is not a first language using delta instead of difference.
On another note, as someone with an engineering background working in manufacturing with international supply chains, it seems that Cotic are making sensible decisions to help their survival and if that means prices have to go up, then so be it. Cheaper options will always be available but I hope enough people will be happy to spend more.
I think that say delta in “Formula One Drive To Survive” quite a lot
I’ll leave it to others to decide whether this is an argument for against using the word delta
If / when I need a new bike, and have spare cash it will be Cotic. Either an escapade or a Jeht. Yes there are other brands but for a little company run out of the local area, they punch well above their size, supporting local trails, organise group rides and many other things that make a positive impact on people. Not to mention they are a great bunch to deal with.
Diversifying their supply chain makes perfect sense and will protect Cotic from future supply problems. I'm sure they've done their sums and if that's what a frame costs then that's what it is.
Best of luck to Cy and the team. Keep up the good work.
Stu
We already have a word for difference, it’s difference.
Plenty of ways of saying things in English, not just one. An abundance, a plethora, a lot of etc etc
In any other context it sounds like you’re saying either “I’m an engineer!” or “I’m a corporate type who thinks science terminology makes me sound more important”.
Ah, that's what it is really about isn't it? Your emotional fragility makes you assume stuff that's not there
Difference is not an obscure or esoteric word.
Nice strawman, who said it was?
I’ve never come across anyone for whom English is not a first language using delta instead of difference.
That's not very conclusive evidence of anything, is it? I have met plenty. Including me.
On another note, as someone with an engineering background working in manufacturing with international supply chains
So basically you've projected your own pomposity on me, judged me by your own standards and got it badly wrong. Brilliant, you couldn't make it up.
More prosaically I use delta because it's quicker, no more, no less. I'll certainly carry on. If it annoys you, so be it.
BTW, we still don't know what sort of individual you think they are? Surely you know, don't you? So don't be coy, share your knowledge. Personally I would never judge someone I don't know by their semantic choices, that would be silly.