[Closed] Nevis Range Red - ruminations and a rant...

Surely driving an Audi makes him a riding god by default.

Stacked big style on this a couple of years back, guessing somewhere around the 6:10+ on the vid above. It was a pretty committing step down and I got the line wrong (understatement). One thing, the "on bike" vid's do not IMHO give a true picture of the trail i.e it is very committing in places, mistakes at a number of points would/could have pretty dire consequences, it is not remotely like any red graded route I have ridden elsewhere.
FWIW not stopping to help somebody, mountain biker, cyclist or anybody in distress is poor behaviour. Even if somebody is all ready at the scene of an accident it costs nothing to stop and see if any additional help is required.

From the 7 stanes website:
RED = Difficult: Challenging climbs, tricky descents & technical features such as drop-off's and large rocks.

Apart from the challenging climb, that pretty much sums up Nevis red for me. It also mentions quality mountain bikes I think.

Yup, except it's much harder than any red route ay any FC centre I've ever been to. My GF is quite happy on most trail centre reds and would have had thrown a major wobbly if she had tried it. A mate's GF whos a bit more confident came on it with us - she had watched a few videos and thought it looked ok but was shocked by how hard/intimidating it was, mainly the fact that there is very little letup.

Seeing as we're posting videos, here's mine.

Only our second or third run and I'm not very good so not too fast. 🙂

Nice work stopping and doing the decent thing.

That trail looks great but I´d probably just crawl down the wooden bits.
I´ve no problem flying down singletrack half that width but throw a few boards in and I´d have to stop and have a think about it.

Nice work stopping and doing the decent thing.

That trail looks great but I´d probably just crawl down the wooden bits.
I´ve no problem flying down singletrack half that width but throw a few boards in and I´d have to stop and have a think about it.

poor show from the riders passing by without even asking if help was needed.

i thought it was a red grade DH not a red grade XC.

Its a bit gnarly and hazardous, but if you can do red at any of the FC trail centres then this shouldn't be that much more a challenge. Who decides the trail rating criteria anyway?

General craic seems to be the further north you go the redder and blacker it gets. Have you ridden Laggan, Golspie and Balblair?
All good 🙂

Golspie

All I have to add is that I have faith in Karma.

I've been very lucky-being a big lad with an interesting capacity to function in shock- that my body absorbs hits well. Broken clavicle here, seperated something or other there, dislocated shoulder blaaah.

If we always offer assistance, then the good deeds should come back around.

Even if it means a full emergency stop and a manic-push up to tourniquet someones leg up Puke Hill, nothing should be too much trouble for a rider down.

Glad that the OP stopped and helped.

Grading stuff: climbing and paddling world has the 'grading' arguments going on, and always has done. Bottom line is, like any risk sport, is that you make your own judgements and calls. Variety is good - some is good, some is poor, some are tough graded red's. Would be purgatory if every red route was the same smooth-with-minimal-bubble-wrap-me please trails that a lot of FC trails seem to be.

It's good to be able to see videos of trails like that.

I have a lot of gnarly work to do before I'd be confident pinning that. In my limited experience, my worse injuries have been a result of hesitation, thinking "fekit" let's go and doing myself a whoopsie.

Wooden berms...in the wet. Oh dear.

*phones Jedi* (other advisers are available).

>plus several riders passed him before I even got there.<

Far far worse than not stopping when help has obviously already arrived.

Well done for helping OP

Interested in this (may need it's own thread)

with zero first aid supplies - lesson learned for me

Just what 1st aid do people ride with? Can't see a bandage would have helped with smashed teeth and punctured lung. not trying to be antagonistic but what have people found to be a useful/weight compromise

so he can only afford a cheap bike but has a car and he can travel a long way to ride.......mmmmmmmmm is not convinced by your reasoning.

So you own a car and are able to travel a fair distance to ride, therefore should have the sort of income that can throw serious money at a mountain bike?

I'll be honest. That looks like a trail that needs a bit of concentration, unless it was clear that someone needed help I'm not sure I would have stopped.
I often see folk stood or sat around by the side of the trail and they get a hi without me really looking at them. I would respond to a shout and I'd probably notice if there was screaming or cpr going on!

I have stopped on Cut Gate to patch up a rider in a bloody mess but that's a two-way multi-use trail so I was going quite steady.

I suppose we need a universally recognised sign that someone's in trouble like the skiers' crossed skis in the snow.

...I personally couldn't just ride past someone in distress/injured but I would always be worrying that the help I could offer would be minimal and would probably panic if the situation was very serious. I would still stop regardless but I can understand how some may decide not to.

I would never ignore an injured anyone.

"excuse me, scuse me"

"are you a doctor"

"no, I'm just a nosy bastard"

Oh I couldn't ride past someone I KNEW to be injured.

Good on you for stopping, but what happened to his mates - did they never get there?

tbh Irrelevent of them going, if he was in a state I'd have rung 999 anyway - they could've crashed too.

>unless it was clear that someone needed help I'm not sure I would have stopped.<

Not having a go at you but it's really not that difficult. Been down that trail countless times and have witnessed big offs,riders at the side of the trail, mechanicals etc. Somehow I've managed to concentrate on what I'M doing and shout ok as I approach? If I don't get ok back I'd check it out. It's basic courtesy / hill-craft.

There is no excuse for passing a downed rider in my mind. If you are not sure then go and check as the OP did.

So you stopped and were helping him? Why did you want everybody else to stop as well? If you needed help then I would have expected you to shout at the passing riders to call for help? I would not think it is good advice to stop at every incident when there are already others helping and they are not asking for your assistance. It may be a bit of a hassle explaining what has happened, etc, rather than getting on with helping the injured rider. Of course I could imagine a situation where I was helping someone and needed help but did not have time/thoughts to ask for it.

If I was BoardinBob there would have been two riders down. Picking up teeth and lots of blood would have me blacked out. Not the best for these situations! 😯

>So you stopped and were helping him? Why did you want everybody else to stop as well?<

If you read the OP's subsequent post he mentioned that others before him had not stopped.

I would have thought that someone with teeth missing and a collapsed lung is going to be in a rather obvious state of distress. If riders did in fact pass the guy I find that inexcusable.

My god there are some selfish pricks in this world. A quick "You OK mate?" as you pass is all that's needed. Imgine if it was you.....

Hmm. Bit crap that if groups had ridden past a cleary injured rider.

Laying face down off the side of the trail with his bike upside down, sounds pretty obvious someone was in trouble. Hope he heels okay and the OP was definitely right to stop.

As for others not stopping. I'm going to suggest two possible reasons. Fort William has set itself up as an "outdoor" destination it seems to attract groups that normally wouldn't mountain bike or be up a mountain generally - thanks to the gondola - this is probably the most likely reason for people riding past.

The second reason is riders too busy getting their gnar on to stop - all sports have an arsehole element after all, perhaps the more extreme end of the sport attracts more arseholes?

A couple did stop and I explained what was happening but most were ignorant pricks.

Sorry the whole first post sounds a bit arrogant and holier than thou. Do you want people to stop or not? Of course you should help people out if they are hurt or needy but your tone is not that encouraging.

I wonder how many people rode by having seen several folk looking after the casualty and assumed things were in hand? Of them, I wonder how many have neither the training nor the confidence to get involved and lend a hand for fear of making things worse? I wouldn't tend to assume the worst in everyone who went by. Given a possible perceived threat of litigation if things go wrong when administering help, I'm not surprised that so many people carried on without checking to see if the guy on the floor was ok. I'm not condoning it but it doesn't come as a shock.

As for the first aid kit, getting the knowledge of how to treat someone in this kind of situation is arguable more important than having a kit but not the basic skills on how to use it. Making an assessment of their injuries, keeping them and you safe without making things worse, getting simple information from them such as name, address, allergies, meds etc, in this case treating for shock and monitoring them all make the work of the emergency services easier. It's not difficult stuff but not everyone has the confidence to get involved and lend a hand.

Personally, I'd like to see first aid taught in schools and to anyone engaging in outdoor activities such as biking but that's for another debate!

Well done for lending a hand.

Cheers

Sanny

>Given a possible perceived threat of litigation if things go wrong when administering help, I'm not surprised that so many people carried on without checking to see if the guy on the floor was ok. <

There are two aspects to this. Happening upon a victim who is quite clearly being attended to by a number of other people is very different from 'riding on by' someone who is lying on the ground on their own.

In the latter scenario I don't perceive litigation as being a threat at all. Can you cite an instance where an ordinary member of the public has been successfully sued for going to the aid of a badly injured person?

If folk were riding past someone who was clearly injured - and alone, I find that both surprising and appalling.

What has the grade of the trail have to do with things?

Grading them red/black/blue/pink/whatever leads people into a false sense of security.

"I can ride other red routes, so this will be fine" or "This is graded a red trail - so there [i]can't[/i] be a 6ft blind drop round this corner I'm flying round"

Perhaps the rider down was going a bit too fast, and out of his comfort zone? It's too easy these days to blame something/someone else...

What has the grade of the trail have to do with things?

As someone pointed out above, the climbing world has decades-long debates on what grade route X should be, so MTB will no doubt have some oddities and exceptions too. At least with MTBing you have the option of getting off and walking, which I think sometimes people are too proud to do. Remember with man-made trails the perception that it is ALL rideable, unlike natural trails where you expect the odd walk/carry. If it is all designed to be rideable, how then do the designers indicate the skill level to ride it? Grading.

cleary injured

Laying face down

You wouldn't be looking, but you would certainly notice something wwwaayyy out of place

You certainly can't specify what someone else may or may not notice with any degree of certainty...

Arguing over semantics aside (which we could do all day), perhaps the best solution would have been for the injured rider's mate to wait until someone else came along and get them to get help, or stay with him, rather than leaving him.

shifter - Member
You certainly can't specify what someone else may or may not notice with any degree of certainty...

you've got to be kidding me. Are you seriously trying to say that a motionless body and a bike lying in some heather just off a wooden board walk isn't going to catch your attention?

IMO everyone that ignored the situation (regardless of the timing, for all they knew an extra pair of hands was needed for the stretcher) is a **** - and that word started with a "c" just so you know.

The mate staying behind is also a tricky one. If he didn't think that there was anyone likely to be coming along soon (this happened early in the day, so not a terrible assumption) then heading for help was the right call

This seems very simple situation - and you did all the right things. Attend to the injured, sort help, stay with them until help comes - job done, and well done. In a similar situation I might have shouted at passing riders for more help if I felt it necessary, but yes, it is unsettling that so many failed to even ask a quick 'you OK?'. The casualty might have been cold and a few jackets could have helped; maybe someone was carrying a FA kit or survival bag; maybe just the moral support of a bunch of riders stopping and offering help, advice, or just keeping you company might have been nice. The motto is simple, it might be you face down in the shit - what would you want? And I am fairly certain the Daily Mail style 'helpful passer-by sued for trying to help' headline is total nonsense. I haven't read or heard of anything like this.

Well done, glad to know at least some people not only know what the right thing is, but do it too.

BoardinBob - Member

How they can class the Witch's Trail in the same category as this one is beyond me.

This is what gets me a bit... Grading's inconsistent, everyone knows that but it shouldn't be so massively inconsistent over a trail a mile away. Especially not when they have their skills area with its easy red, which says "If you can do this, go do the reds!" Not clever.

doh - Member

i thought it was a red grade DH not a red grade XC.

Not really such a thing in the UK, we grade DH trails orange. Nevis Red is definately supposed to be a red XC route and is signed and avertised as such.

I was involved in an evacuation on the DH track this time last year. On my first run down Myself and two friends came across a guys who had dislocated his hip. It one friend contacted the bottom station and a evacuation gondola was sent up from the bottom.
Whilst waiting and comforting this poor guy, countless idiots rolled by at speed taking very little notice or offering any kind of support.

Indeed, when it came to lifting the guy on a stretcher to underneath the wire we had to physically stand in the middle of the track to stop people tearing past us as we carried him to be lifted.

I was shocked at the time how many inconsiderate fools there are in my own sport.
Really depressing.

shifter - Member
You certainly can't specify what someone else may or may not notice with any degree of certainty...

you've got to be kidding me. Are you seriously trying to say that a motionless body and a bike lying in some heather just off a wooden board walk isn't going to catch your attention?

I'm not kidding. This futile argument isn't about what would catch my attention. Are [i]you[/i] saying that the folk who rode by [i]actually saw[/i] a "motionless body"? I don't believe the situation is as clear cut as you think it is and humans are notoriously bad witnesses of things happening in front of their eyes never mind "20' off the trail" that "needs 100% concentration".

I think if those riders [u]actually saw[/u] "a motionless body" (your words) they would've stopped.

The guy was wearing a bright orange jacket

Stevie Wonder would've seen him

. If it has to be pegged to the grading system used at trail centres, it should be black. It's steep, relentless, rough, technical, requires full concentration 100% of the time and the penalty for failure can be severe. How they can class the Witch's Trail in the same category as this one is beyond me.

To be honest I consider most blacks to be reds in the UK, they're rarely taxing when compared to continental trails of the same grading. To me this also highlights the vast jump from black to "mental boardwalk freeriding" type stuff which so often catches people out.

As for riding past folk - I've probably done it a million times as I rarely watch things off-trail when it's tricky, but even so I wouldn't stop unless the person was alone and looked unconscious/seriously hurt or someone with them was waving for help. Personally when injured but not too badly the last thing I want is folk to stop and embarrass me further!

Stevie Winder rides an MTB?
Wow - chapeau.

I think we need to face the fact that 'we' have become selfish as a species. Can't be arsed. Someone else will do something. Fear - of interacting with other people, possible conflict. Lack of confidence in communication skills. It's all over the place, not just biking. It's possible we just don't care as much as we used to but I think it's a reversible trend. You bucked it 🙂

>Someone else will do something.<

Nail on head.

Not buying into the "when I'm on trail I'm completely in the zone" mentality. A blind man on a galloping horse is going to spot someone in an orange jacket lying anywhere near that part of the trail.

On reflection I'm really not that surprised - NR and Trail Centres in general are magnets for the type of arseholes who would ignore someone.

And if everyone had stopped, crowding around the unfortunate victim no doubt they would have been accused of being voyeurs.