[Closed] National Cycle Network cuts a quarter of its routes on safety grounds.

Problem is that much of their off-road stuff is not fit for purpose either.

That's underfunding for you.

I'd rather we just had a 20 or 30mph speed limit imposed on all roads except motorways.

rather we just had a 20 or 30mph speed limit imposed on all roads except motorways.

So by proxy your in favour of more motorways ?

So by proxy your in favour of more motorways ?

No, happy to leave them as they are.

FWIW, the last 122 miles of LeJoG isn't on the A9 if you are following the Sustrans route.

It became apparent a few years ago that Sustrans was reverting to being more urban-oriented. This makes a lot of sense. Campaigning for safe routes to school etc has a much higher impact than focussing on long distance routes for cycle tourists. Input to the A9 dualling project was confused and divergent because you had one side only wanting local, village-to-village links and the other after a continuous, A9-side cycleway (and, let's face it, funding for both was never going to happen)

During lockdown there was a lot of media chat about less cars on the road after lockdown and people turning more to bikes. Where I live that really hasn't been the case and it's back to "as you were"! Unfortunately some roads (like the A9) are just not safe imo for cycling without a significant change to the rules and attitudes.

Only 3.5km of the A9 is designated as NCN1, a short section north-west of Tain.

No, happy to leave them as they are.

Ah ok so the me me me I'm fine jack attitude.

Essentially cutting off anyone north of Perth and a chunk of North Wales from deliveries and traveling tbh....

Have you a seat in Westminister as that sounds like a suggestion they would have.

And tbh 30mph would just result in more phone use. It's lack of attention and focus on driving that is causing cyclists to be hit . The speed determines the outcome.

This makes a lot of sense. Campaigning for safe routes to school etc has a much higher impact

I'm fully in support of this. At a local level both people and councils need to realise that some lines painted and not enforced on the bit of the road where people park is not suitable infrastructure for anything.

It's not suitable for confident cyclists. It's even less suitable for children.

Children are the ones we need to focus on , they are the ones that will grow up to use their bikes -or not. If the infrastructures not safe for them now , why would the think it's normal to use the bike to go places ?

That’s underfunding for you.

I'm not sure.. is it underfunding or mis-funding?
I've not looked into the funding but simply looking at many routes it seems to me they are getting funding/grants on a per km/mile basis...

Only 3.5km of the A9 is designated as NCN1, a short section north-west of Tain.

Not specific to that but it seems much of the designated routes just don't do joined up thinking... down here were we have a high density of housing/roads etc. it almost seems like they put in the miles of routes over the stuff that was comparatively safe then get to a really crappy and dangerous bit and just say "sod it" and stick in a couple of miles of major roads that in a sensible world bikes would be banned. One very close to me is a bus route and pretty much exactly 2 buses wide... major A road on a steep hill... and lots of construction traffic. This could be completely avoided was it not for several footpath only alternatives.

I’m not sure.. is it underfunding or mis-funding?

I'm not sure either, it was just based on chatting with a guy I know who works for them. He basically said they had lots of great ideas and very little money to make them happen.

Resurfacing that long section through Drumochter must have cost quite a bit.

And tbh 30mph would just result in more phone use.

It's interesting that the Hebridean Way is being cut. This was one of the most pleasant and courteous routes I've cycled in the uk. Even though it uses some 'main' roads, the level of traffic is pretty low and (nearly) everyone seemed chilled and patient. The variety of bike types doing the route was awesome.

Are they actually going to take down the signs on the routes being cut?

I see the logic but it's a shame. I have had some great times following their mixed routes

easy solution to that. Just enforce the law. I’ve never understood why traffic laws aren’t actually enforced properly – it would be self-funding from fines & seized vehicles.

This

Are they actually going to take down the signs on the routes being cut?

Yes

Agree that something needs to be done, but it will be a pity if they abandon the long distance routes. Could they not just reclassify them to make it plain that there are sections that novices may not like?

Is there an entire NCN route that doesn't include at least one road section?

So does that mean they'll scrap the entire route or just the on road sections, leaving us with disconnected sections all over the place?

easy solution to that. Just enforce the law. I’ve never understood why traffic laws aren’t actually enforced properly

I can only assume that you live in a country that has a police force that hasn't been stripped bare.

I’d rather we just had a 20 or 30mph speed limit imposed on all roads except motorways.

I would prefer properly designed, implemented and maintained cycling infrastructure.

I’m not sure.. is it underfunding or mis-funding?

I’m not sure either, it was just based on chatting with a guy I know who works for them. He basically said they had lots of great ideas and very little money to make them happen.

Resurfacing that long section through Drumochter must have cost quite a bit.

Yeah it's not that I think they are well funded but that the design is based around maximising funding rather than use-ability and safety. England being worse hit than Scotland or Wales (though not NI) due to footpaths especially over avoiding roads altogether.

I would prefer properly designed, implemented and maintained cycling infrastructure.

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Roads_Were_Not_Built_for_Cars.html?id=6iS8BwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Resurfacing that long section through Drumochter must have cost quite a bit.

That was BEAR.

TBH I think some of this is a power play by Xavier Brice. He is trying to bluff the Govt into assigning additional funding and he has decided that this is when he likely has most influence. I think he is destined to lose.

One thing that the patchy network has done is to show demand. If there's good infrastructure between A and B and between C and D then it encourages cyclists between B and C and this can result in improvements there too. We've seen exactly this on NCN78 north of Oban.

That’s underfunding for you.

Maybe. But sustrans should stop lending their name to crappy infrastructure that is completely unsuitable for leisure or utility cycling.

So does that mean they’ll scrap the entire route or just the on road sections, leaving us with disconnected sections all over the place?

Well TBF the roads will still exist, but as sustrans can't hand on heart say they meet the standard of "being safe" throughthey'll simply not have a NCN designation.

I'll be interested to see how it affects some of my local routes where there are sections that are part of NCN on roads that are busy during certain peak hours and then relatively quiet off peak/weekends. How high/low is the bar set?

I can only assume that you live in a country that has a police force that hasn’t been stripped bare.

This. Coupled with the clear lack of understanding of the costs of the justice system being more than a few cops in cars.

Enforcing it is about much more than just catching them. You have to get it to stick.

It's largely futile because of the me first attitudes in this country you don't even have to go out of this thread to see it at work.

I'd suggest that the routes remain signed, but with some sort of grading in place to take account of traffic levels etc. In some places, this already happens where there are on-road and "mtb" alternatives.

One of the nicest traffic free routes near us has been closed recently (private road through Eythrope Park) apparently due to the actions of some bellends on bicycles, makes me want to bloody scream at times, hopefully the waddesdon greenaway won't end up the same way 🙁

Sustrans are useless.   Built/Signe miles of poor quality cycle routes to hit a target without consideration for practicality or suitability.  Then produce some guidance on cycle design standards that is gauge and doesn't really promote the building of high-quality safe infrastructure, said it was actually forgot purpose, it would expose all their existing routes as poorly designed.   And because everyone has heard of them, their shit guidance gets gets promoted as the gold standard, meaning more shit gets built.

Personally I'd like to see sustrans and every scrap of their influence wiped from history, replaced with a single piece of highway legislation requiring a minimum standard of cycle route.  If you can't build it to that standard, don't build it, or change the road layout do you can build something worthwhile.

NCN6 goes past the end of my road.  I wouldn't let my kids use it to go to the park!

But sustrans should stop lending their name to crappy infrastructure that is completely unsuitable for leisure or utility cycling.

This. As a lobbying association, they've spent time and effort trying to engage with councils and then, when the council finally throw them a few crumbs of a shit bit of alleyway, they proudly put their name to it and call it part of a "network".

Reality is that you're never going to get meaningful conversion to cycling if the "network" is a random mix of towpaths, gravel tracks, paint along a main road and dark, unlit disused railway line round the back of a sink estate, and you never know which bits are which until you arrive at a bit on your road or touring bike and discover you need a full on MTB with mudguards.

Sustrans are useless. Built/Signe miles of poor quality cycle routes to hit a target without consideration for practicality or suitability.

NCN6 goes past the end of my road. I wouldn’t let my kids use it to go to the park!

Yep I'm right on part of a route... but somehow it's inflexible. only 100m away is a car free park by the stream and flood defenses with lots of paths... Our avenue used to be fairly safe but why not use the car free route 100m parallel that joins the very top - the sustrans pre-dates the park and the "traffic calming"? Since they put in traffic calming our avenue is treacherous... staggered parked cars everywhere and bollards and speed ramps. Cars dash between the staggered areas and speed ramps..and no visibility especially with kids playing. The speed ramps would actually be fun on a bike if it wasn't for the bollards and staggered cars.. (they are this time of night as you can clear them) but the cycle path is 100m away...FFS... why can't they change it to reflect the new park and the far more dangerous conditions.

Reality is that you’re never going to get meaningful conversion to cycling if the “network” is a random mix of towpaths, gravel tracks, paint along a main road and dark, unlit disused railway line round the back of a sink estate, and you never know which bits are which until you arrive at a bit on your road or touring bike and discover you need a full on MTB with mudguards.

This raises another question... what/who are the routes/network for?
It seems a bit of a challenge to get a network that is suitable for the masses on bigger tyres with tread and mud guards and a shopping basket and a road bike with 700x24 semi claiming the gravel chipped their £5000 frame.

Bear in mind Sustrans aren't just about cycling, though NCN obviously is.

I have no problems with fines for motoring offences covering the full cost of enforcement. And proper bans at 12 points. Just a month. No excuses. No car. Make people see that their actions have real consequences if their license is taken away, on their families, their ability to work, get the shopping.

have no problems with fines for motoring offences covering the full cost of enforcement. And proper bans at 12 points. Just a month. No excuses

I'd also love that.

I think you have more chance of getting a fully functional Dutch style cycle network in the next year than getting proper punishment for car drivers in the next 10

As it is the cars the weapon of choice.for almost no reparcussions

Sustrans are definitely playing a game here. If you look at their new map, it now means most of the long distance routes have sections which are no longer part of the National Cycle Network. Large parts of NCN1 north of Berwick, for example. So what is the point of the route? Are cyclists expected to use the NCN and then just stop riding in the middle of nowhere. This seems like a political decision on their part & I can’t see it working.

Maybe something has rattled their cage about possible litigation if someone tries action against them for advertising "safe" routes which turn out not to be.

Large parts of NCN1 north of Berwick, for example. So what is the point of the route?

As I said up there ^^^ long distance routes are no longer the focus of Sustrans (if they ever really were). Many if them only came about as a way of linking shorter, urban sections, which also explains why they often take strange diversions.

Regardless of the poor opinion many on here have if the organisation I think this is a very retrograde step. In fact, I think it might have just set the UK back 20 years in the establishment of a viable inter-town cycle network.

[I]Is there an entire NCN route that doesn’t include at least one road section[/I]

I think the article said urban roads up to 20mph, and rural up to 40mph is acceptable. It's the faster roads that are deemed inappropriate.

Our ‘National Cycle Network’ is a bit of national embarrassment. A lot of the off road sections should really also be removed from the network until they’ve been brought up to standard.

I sometimes wonder what European cycle tourists think when they roll off the ferry at Dover and on to NCN1 (theoretically our contribution to EuroVelo 12) and have to overcome numerous gates and chicanes that you can’t fit a loaded bike through, poor signage, 17% gradients on muddy, potholed rural roads, numerous farm tracks, rough single track around field margins, a section that is underwater for 2 months of the year, and narrow stretches hemmed in by barbed wire and covered in broken glass round the back of industrial estates. All before they even make it to London!

To be slightly fairer to Sustrans, they’ve never had the funding or the powers necessary to deliver such an ambitious network, and have to rely on volunteers, existing rights of way and the goodwill of landowners and local authorities. It means that one unhelpful farmer can result in a 5 mile detour, and local authorities concerns about anti social behaviour can result in routes that are unusable by cargo bikes, trailers and anything with wide handlebars or panniers. Really, Sustrans, or whoever else is going to be responsible for a National Cycle Network needs to be a properly funded part of the DfT with the power to CPO land, and to impose routes and standards on local authorities. They should also be consulted on every major highways improvement and road building project to assess whether these should also include a separated cycle way. Unfortunately I can see that happening any time soon in this country.

they’ve never had the funding or the powers necessary to deliver such an ambitious network,

And there's the rub. We can be quick to slag them off but for a charity that relies on donations, volunteers and cooperative landowners/authorities, they've done the best they can.

And there’s the rub. We can be quick to slag them off but for a charity that relies on donations, volunteers and cooperative landowners/authorities, they’ve done the best they can.

The problem is that "the best they can" is quite often used as an excuse to be crap. And Sustrans, keen for more funding, more publicity etc, were always happy to sign stuff off/put their name to it on on the basis that "anything is better than nothing" which it quite blatantly isn't.

It's a national disgrace that active travel is managed by a well-meaning bunch of volunteers within a charity organisation. Can you imagine if the motorways were run the same way?!

I mean, I do sympathise - if you're waiting for perfection before signing stuff off, you'll never get anything done. But if you sign off any old stuff, you get a reputation for being shit...

I also think the ‘Paths for Everyone’ idea is fundamentally flawed. A route which is suitable for people pottering about with their toddler on a balance bike or walking the dog isn’t going to be much use to a commuter for example. You can’t please everyone & if they are going for the slowest recreational segment then they are no longer about ‘sustainable transport’ & aren’t serious about getting cars off the road.

It’s a national disgrace that active travel is managed by a well-meaning bunch of volunteers within a charity organisation. Can you imagine if the motorways were run the same way?!

Hit the nail on the head

As for motoring laws, the most effective thing you could do would be to introduced presumed liability. It wouldn't require enforcement and it wouldn't result in a massive increase in journey times for large parts of Wales and Scotland. But it would require a bit of political will so its never going to happen.

Just had a look at the updated maps.

My favourite post work ride from Glasgow out to Strathaven and back is now gone. All quiet b-roads with barely a car on them at any time, but they are on NSL roads so that's it instantly culled from their network.

Yet somehow the NCN7 section from Kilbirnie to Irvine, which is on NSL country roads, has somehow survived.

Can't understand the logic here at all