well you need to go back to page one of this to find why you get on everyones tits tj.
kit pitches in with a tale of great escape and an upbeat medic with a cheery.. might just have saved your life comment.
joyus post allround.
but sure as eggs is eggs you get tj with..welll actually if you apply the data i think you will find that...zzzzzzzzz.
and yet you use one if there is a risk. 🙄
sorry man i like your well thought out informative posting but today it was a fail in my view.
sorry, TJ said that the chances of crashing on a bike are "millions to one" . LOL!
Cullenbay - no I did not.
What I said was that the chances of crashing and getting a serious head injury that would be prevented by a helmet when riding on a traffic free easy path are millions to one.
Glad your ok Kit
A friend went under an HGV 5 years back whilst out cycling.
It turn left across her and she got dragged under its wheels.
Cue heli-air ambulance into London.
Everything was a mess including her.
Except the helmet, which was untouched!
I wear a lid all the time I'm on a bike. Period.
Helmets, especially for everyday cycling, are an emotive issue, and its important to counter the relentless propaganda surrounding them.
If and when they are made compulsory, the numbers of cyclists on the road WILL go down- usually by 30% when laws are introduced. Why do you think that the pro compulsion campaigns are supported so enthusiastically by the motor industry / motor insurance industry?
First we'll have to wear helmets, then maybe hi-viz, then body armour, and when casualty rates are still going up , 'something will have to be done', and we will be banned from the road for our own safety.
Thats only one good reason why you should THINK carefully about their promotion.
I got chatting with a guy 3 years ago.
He’d been out mountain biking on his own one evening, went over the bars and regained consciousness in the dark.
He couldn’t move. He had his phone but couldn’t get to it or work it.
After a while he gained some limited movement in his fingers and toes and I guess a limited range of movement in his bottom!
He then shuffled, clawed and pushed himself back along the trail.
He said that after about 2hrs he realised he was going the wrong way!
All the time he was getting colder and colder as it was about this time of the year up in the Scottish Highlands.
The colder it got, the more feeling and movement he gained.
So he shuffled 180 degrees about so that by the dawn he’d made his way, on his backside, to the roadside where a lorry driver spotted him in the morning and called for an ambulance.
He was by now seriously hypothermic, which actually saved his life as it took down the swelling to the broken vertebrae in the back of his neck!
Guess what – he wasn’t wearing a lid!
Why should it be emotive?
Think: if, when you teach your children to ride their first bikes, would you or did you have them wearing a helmet?
And whilst out with your children on these rides, did you or do you wear one too?
Lead by example perhaps?
Teach them well & it never becomes an issue. Take them to the events you enter perhaps, MM, Sleepless, whatever and they'll witness the same - riders in helmets on bikes. Big deal!
Ti29er, Shouldnt he have been wearing a back/ neck protecter?
If anything by increasing the size/ leverage on the head a helmet could perhaps had made things worse.
But without a careful reconstruction with a field of live volunteers, we'll never know, one way or another.
I'd also probably not want my kids to wear helmets.
Of the wains I see, a good 90% are wearing them in such a way as to make the risk of injury greater( ill fitting or delibarately skewed back to not mess up their hair, for instance)
TJ - bit of a lazy answer that one.
"I'd also probably not want my kids to wear helmets."
Let's see what the mother has to say when it comes to it! 🙄
By the same token, just because other fathers aren't getting it right, doesn't mean you have to follow their poor examples.
Ultimately, you have to make assessments.
My ex's brother worked in a head injuries clinic in the US. The horror stories he had to tell don't bear repeating; and so you have to make a judgment call on what you feel is best for you based on what you know and what you knowledge you have gained from others.
There are enough guys on here who will tell you about hitting a tree, a kerb, head butting the ground in particular to know beyond reasonable doubt that it's the wisest thing to do whilst out mountain biking; but ultimately, it's your choice.
Goan What is the point in me continuously repeating stuff? Everything I have said is backed up by real peer reviewed evidence.
Have you read the research? Do you understand the anatomy and physiology of brain injury especially diffuse axon injury?
Follow the links in wiki to read some real research
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1039.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn418-soft-hat.html
TI 29r
Its a pity the real evidence does not back that up
There is no good evidence that helmets across populations reduce head injuries.
Many doctors are gainst helmets and complusion
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1171.html
ti29 your wasting your time with real life things mate if its not been peer reviewed you have no voice yknow.
Do you, or have you ever reported having had a crash whilst out biking, having head butted a tree perhaps, re-adjusted your lid (?), shaken the grass from your clothing, checked the bike over and then without fail reported a non-injury to the NHS ?
Thought not!
Ti29er, helmets are a RECENT phenomenon- not that long ago no-one wore them ( and in many countries most still dont), and yet head injuries seem( when population level studies are undertaken) to go UP when compulsion is introduced.
Now every kid I know survived the evils of a helmet free childhood( including cycling, fights, falling out of trees etc)
I also know a lot of cyclists, many of whom are fairly 'old school' and I still dont know one who has had a serious or fatal head injury(I'm sure there is one of you that does, but these are totally the exception that proves the rule)
TJ - yes I have read some of the research and do understand the anatomy, physiology and biomechanics of brain injury.
When you are citing wikipedia and a site called cyclehelmets as your examples of real research your argument starts to lose credibility. The New Scientist article is about enhancing the deceleration properties of helmets.
i wore a lid as a kid after a mate died falling off the back of a moped whilst riding along with bmx's
If we apply the same criteria as we might do with say smokers.
That is, with the best will in the world, a self inflicted injury.
Ultimately, how much real sympathy can one extend when smokers develope cancers, be they smoking related or not?
So, how much real and genuine sympathy do you think you'd receive were you to sustain a head injury whilst out cycling from the non-medical profession?
For me, I've experienced enough, heard enough and witnessed enough to know without doubt nor hesitation that wearing a helmet is a given for me, my family and friends.
You choose your own path, based on your own wisdom, knowledge and experiences.
Jedi, Shouldn't your mate have been wearing a motorcycle helmet for something that dangerous?
tj why is it that you are now happy to include the fact that doctors are against helmets when it was a doctors opinion in the op that got you started?are those doctors crash investigators tj? hmmmmmmm.
Getting a bit tired as a topic this, but it always goes the same way; those of us like TJ do our best to argue in a sensible way, providing as much evidence as we can, and get juvenile comments and. anecdotes in return.
Those of you advocating helmet use at all times; are you really sure you should be involved in such a dangerous activity that your helmet is the only thing that is preventing your certain death or disability?
It's just nor that dangerous, or you wouldn't be allowed to by your mums...
There is evidence that smoking causes serious illness
There is no evidence that vented polystyrene cycling hats save lives
Do you, or have you ever reported having had a crash whilst out biking, having head butted a tree perhaps, re-adjusted your lid (?), shaken the grass from your clothing, checked the bike over and then without fail reported a non-injury to the NHS ?Thought not!
its a good point. I have already broken one lid this year and had a real head-banger last week. I told everyone on here of course 🙂 but the NHS never got the call
Goan, let's see your research then; you're doing a lot of criticising and not much backing up...
My mum's dead so I have had to make my own mind up!
How very grown up of me.
As an aside, all the races and events that I know of, be it a Merida, Sleepless, Mayhem, etc etc all insist that you wear a helmet.
thats good to know dan however its not been reviewd by the peers so it never happened.it would seem.
crikey thats your world and how it works for you.you cannot insist that we all live in it.
Goan
ou clearly do not understand the antomy and physiology or you would undertand that linera impacts do not cause the shearing of blood vessels in teh way that rotaional ones do
The new scientist article is about reducing the rotational forces not enhancing the deceleration properties whatever that is supposed to mean
The helmet is designed to limit the rotational forces affecting the head during an impact and is currently undergoing bench tests.
The wiki and cyclehelmets org sites I linked to as both have long lists of references for you to follow both for and against. if you wanted to learn.
Nonk - I linked to the BMA debate as it has good arguments from both sides of the debate and references to follow and to show that not all doctors think helmets save lives. My GP cycles and refuses to wear a helmet as he would rather have focal brain injury from which recovery is good than a diffuse axon injury from which recovery is rare and he believes that diffuse axon injuries are more common if you wear a helmet.
Righteoe. I realy don't think I can ad any more. I have explained my position and how I have come to that from my reading of the evidence. I have provided links to the evidence and pointed out some areas that I believe are pertinent.
I like evidence based practice not superstition and anecdote
well eplained on the doc front.
however this is a website for cyclists so in my view the anecdote has some value thats kind of why i am here.
A cycle helmet may protect against the most superficial of injuries likely when riding like a loon offroad ( scuffing trees, vegetation and such) and though I rarely bother myself, I'd not consider it a bad idea for that reason.
For general cycling, commuting and riding to the shops, and thats what I thought we were discussing, they send out the message that" OMG! CYCLING IS DANGEROUS, PROBABLY FATAL!" and to make matters worse, dont offer any protection against the dangerous ,probably fatal sorts of accidents that people wear them for.
TJ - go and punch your bed as hard as you can, then go and punch the outside wall, then come back and tell me that you dont understand what i'm saying.
Good grief. Ive just noticed this thread growing bigger by the day.
Within half a mile into a 10mile time trial at Culloden moor i approached some crossroads and a car pulled out on me without looking.Apart from leaning on a pair of tri bars at the time i would have thought i was reasonably safe.. just pedalling along on a quite scottish country road in a straight line with no obstacles in the distance.what could go wrong? a puncture? a broken chain? maybe.. but that wouldnt be too much of a problem.Then it happened.Something appeared that i wasnt expecting and i hit it.I wont go into it again but the helmet is in a cupboard and the compression in the polystyrene close to my temple is quite some diffrence compared to the undamaged side.After it happened i can only remember a blanket and an ambulance. I didnt know how to get home after hospital (i made it hard for the driver that took me home from the hospital as i couldnt really tell him how to get to the house) we detoured a bit but finally got there.
but you know what? i got home that night. for the sake of wearing a helmet that weighed next to nothing it was well worth having on. one of those little things that doesnt make too much odds.. but well worth it.
I tried to drive to work the next morning but felt so clumsy and spaced out that i turned back.Its only once its happened TJ that you wish you HAD put one on because for the small hassle,its worth so much. Not just to you,but for the folk around you as well.
Once it happens you ask yourself how sore it would have been without it.how cut open you might have been. How big the crack in the skull might have been.how long you would be in hospital (if yer lucky enough to still be there) how long you would have been off the bike.the list is endless.
My mothers friends son died cruising down the street many years ago without a helmet. he wasnt paying attention and wobbled a bit.. then fell and clipped the edge of the kerb and killed himself. this could have possibly been a quick trip to the shop around the corner.who knows.It can happen anywhere,anytime.
Jeremy,please spend 5 mins watching this video.Ive seen this very rider fall about 6 years ago at a skatepark during a u.k tour.during a fall,the bike hit the back of his head into the floor of a concrete pool.He was a bit dazed but lived another day.It didnt make him wear a helmet after that.. it took a lot more to drum the message into him but finally something happened that DID.Please watch the whole of the first video and ask yourself for the hassle of wearing a helmet - is it really worth it? They weight nothing,they are really comfortable and they dont look stupid.why leave home without one if you can agree on that? Can you agree,TJ? If you could agree,and said that you would wear one for every ride from now on.. i would send you a new helmet tomorrow.
TandemJeremy - MemberAbsolutly Kimbers. crushed helmet and headache = maybe fracture certainly flesh wound without one possible serious head injury.
They simply do not turn life threatening injuries into non injuries tho.
edit :Aye Kit - but you would not have been dead. You probably would have had a proper hospitalised type injury
TJ - when it comes to helmets you are a first class bellend.
martinxyz, the lesson I would take from your anecdote, has nothing to do with helmets and everything to do with not riding on unstable-hands off the brakes-timetrial bars.
Worse than religion...
I'm out of it too; you can tell a mountain biker, but you can't him much...
Martin. Thank you for the offer but no need - have a read of my long post a page or two back.
Rob - thank you for your considered, erudite and mature response
But you guys all believe in Global Warming, right?
😈
Glad you're OK Kit, sounds like a nasty one... Not been a good couple of weeks for Edinburgh riders and helmets I think!
Shame that these threads can't help but become clashes of faith... Both sides know perfectly well there's both logic, medical and scientific evidence to support both arguments, yet selectively pick and choose what they want to bring to the table and dismiss everything else, or choose to exagerrate the effect of one type of injury and ignore others to support the anti-argument, or similiarly ignore those injuries as they don't fit the pro helmet argument. It's not discussion, it's dogma. No point in even getting into these conversations really...
Kit wrote: "Not that I needed convincing, but every medic I saw tonight (quite a few!) assured me I'd likely be dead if I hadn't worn my helmet."
That's exactly what they said to me when I had my big road crash. I didn't know a helmet could offer such protection from a shelf 2 miles away 🙂
But, I could crash the same crash tomorrow and be killed.
I'll not get into the discussion, I just cannot be bothered again but here's the one thing that I hate:
"NOBODY CAN PROVE THAT HELMETS SAVE LIVES"
Of course they can't. How could they? The nature of these injuries is that no such proof is possible. But this is totally different from proving that helmets don't save lives.
Global warming? Its a fact that all the heat from debates on intent fora the world over has increased the temperature by 2 zillion degrees.
Sorry for hijacking your thread BTW
I was once hit side on by a car in Edinburgh when I used to commute. I mounted the bonnet bounced of the windscreen and ended up twenty metres away, next to the kerb. I considered myself extremely lucky not to have hit my head as I had chosen not to wear my helmet that day. I would never chose not to wear a helmet again as i feel that I've had my lucky escape. There can't be many routes through Edinburgh where there isn't the chance, no matter how small, of some kind of incident. I'm just not going to take the chance again. I don't want see compulsory helmet wearing. But I think if you are on your bike there is always a chance and I don't want my kids asking why I didnt't wear helmet.
oh no,westkipper.. if you search back months ago you will find that i might have mentioned getting onto the hoods more than early enough,thought about braking for a moment as i watched the car creep out of the junction, THEN start to brake.. pity i ended up skidding and snaking for quite some distance before hitting it. Theres no tread or contact patch big enough on a road bike to help you stop when these things happen.
bit like covering the brakes in a car.. was told not to do it during my lessons.
Thanks TJ, i put a £20 bet on with someone that you wouldnt agree!
