[Closed] Mountain Biking - Club Ride Risk Assessment

boriselbrus, you're selectively quoting me. Read all of what I wrote and you'll see that actually I said pretty much exactly that - common sense guidance and precautions and a dynamic RA rather than a "filling in a form with every possible scenario" approach with anyone with any common sense would tell you is just not possible..

As far as I can remember, none of us ever completed a risk assessment when we were 10 years old and playing in the woods on our bikes

you didn't but unwittingly your parents probably did... is he good enough not to fall off all the time? do we know where he is is so if he doesn't come home we can go looking for him etc...

First of all I must say, this is essentially a bunch of mates going for a ride. The idea of doing it under the club banner was to drum up interest in developing an MTB arm of the club with a view to regular rides and racing.

TBH it did not even cross my mind when I arranged the ride! We certainly WILL NOT be stood about looking at rocks (between us in the group we've done, to name a few, the off road coast to coast, England and Scotland, riden the alps, loads of races and recently the Transrockies, so I think we are qualified enough!!)

Thats precisely why they do want it though. Because you are trying to form a "club" not a group of mates. Whats the difference? Some structure, some discipline, some rules, some formality - and that ensures that new people can come and join in safe in the knowledge that they know what they are getting into. If you need to be alpine / rockies standard to ride with your club make sure everyone knows. If you don't then you "experts" need to give some thought to how you accommodate and look after the newbies.

I have to say I think it is outrageous and OTT to do a detailed risk assessment in this way when it is not a requirement at all.

It raises all sorts of other questions such as who is competent to do the risk assessments? Have they been trained adequately?

A voluntary club is very different from a paid guiding company and IMO Polys suggestions are far more relevant to the latter.

TJ, the concept of risk assessment existed before legislation and is used in many areas it is not required by law. The idea is to work out what might go wrong and how you might make it better, but to be effective it needs to be suitable and sufficient. It doesn't need to be ridiculously detailed and the people on the ground should certainly be able to make dynamic changes but if you want to ride within the structure of the club I can't see that it is any different to a paid guide. Indeed since a paid guide is likely to have some formal training you might argue he is better placed to making dynamic risk assessments than whoever happens to have been picked to lead a route.

I've read quite a lot of accident reports (nothing to do with biking) and its quite clear that risk assessment are mostly seen as a paperwork formality, and there is little contingency planning for what happens when it all goes wrong, and who is in control.

My local roady club split their road rides into two abilities. They publicise the kit you need to bring. The provide some general road riding tips. They have a policy that in the slow group nobody gets dropped. In the fast group if you are getting dropped they will try to leave you somewhere to get swept up by the slow group. Roadies use hand signals to communicate hazards etc. I don't know if anyone formally called that a risk assessment - but its the description of how their rides work for the enjoyment (and safety) of everyone.

- risk of rider collisions. How will riders be "kept apart".

I'm struggling with this one.
Is the solution to warn all riders not to ride into other riders?

Thats for the group to sort out - but roadies are used to riding very close together, they may need to be encourages to leave more space. Some understanding of the "etiquette" of passing (whatever that might be in the group) would probably also be wise.

surely the risks that should be assessed are those where we might take out a rambler

yes ramblers, dog walkers, other cyclists, spooking cattle that stampede a farmer etc - all at risk from your activities. They might sue. If you actually kill one then in the worst case you might face manslaughter/culpable homicide charges. That is unlikely but at the least you damage the reputation of everyone in cycling.

you didn't but unwittingly your parents probably did... is he good enough not to fall off all the time? do we know where he is is so if he doesn't come home we can go looking for him etc...

I'm sure my parents thought my friends and I led some sort of Famous Five-esque existence when we went out to play whereas in reality we were somewhere between Stig of the Dump and Evel Knievel. They would have had a coronary if they knew what mischief we got up to.

Did the famous five not get kidnapped, stop smugglers etc... ...your parents would have been reassured to know you were 'just' jumping over each other on bikes.

Poly - I knw and use risk assessments often.

you want to ride within the structure of the club I can't see that it is any different to a paid guide.

The duty of care is different when you are paying for a service or if someone professes to have certain skills. you expect a higher standard and the person would be judged to a higher standard.

I am a registered nurse. If I do first aid I am expected to know more than a lay person and to perform better and thus I could be held to accounts for mistakes to a much higher standard.

If you are paying for a service you expect then to be professional, in a club you expect a competent amateur as a leader, riding with pals its just as a member of the public.

All 3 cases would be judged on different standards. YOu are judged against the skils you profess to have or would be expected to have for a competent person in your position.

Tj, I would respectfully suggest that you are completing ra's to achieve or demonstrate compliance and not to manage risk. This is a problem I encounter every day.

How does the standard of care you are expected to give vary if you are being paid or voluntary?

Now I don't expect a club to do customer service, or necessarily to offer any guiding or coaching, but what I would expect is that the club, especially for new activities makes clear what people can expect. It can of course say expert riders only all expected to be totally self sufficient etc, but that kind of negate the point of the club then.

**** me, the poor bloke only asked how detailed his r.a needed to be, instead he's subjected to a load of bile from some and the best part of 2 pages of self indulgent argument from others.

there has been some good advice from mtb guides on here and i hope he's been able to sift it out.

🙄

trailmonkey - bang on!

Thanks for all the contributions folks. I'll concentrate on 3rd party issues as this is what it is aimed at, not 'what happens if someone falls off'.

If they ask for the other stuff, much of it can be cribbed from the road club rides RA, it covers it (well maintained bikes, what happens if there's a mechanical etc etc.)

And yes, it would be better if we didn't need to do it, but if it means more people join the MTB side of the club and we all go riding/racing - that has to be good surely?!

Poly - I use risk assessments to manage risk.

Duty of care varies depending on the professed or expected skills of the person who owes you that duty IIRC.

For ****s sake, what a load of shit.

Just ride your bikes FFS.

TO make your RA's easier, differentiate between hazard and risk ie what can go wrong, and the likelihood of it going wrong considering the `controls' you have in place.

Poly - I use risk assessments to manage risk.

Duty of care varies depending on the professed or expected skills of the person who owes you that duty IIRC.

Nice question avoidance - but the point being your duty doesn't depend on whether you were paid or not it is what you could reasonably be expected to do! I would think it is reasonable that before a road cycling club embarks on a new venture into mountain biking (which any reasonable person would see has different foreseeable risks from road biking) that they look at those risks. Now I've no idea of BC require it, or the insurers demand it - but it seems like a pretty reasonable thing for a club's management group / committee to want to do.

Poly - I didn't avoid your question - [i]duty of care[/i] is what you owe to someone and yes if you are being paid to do a service you will be judged, on whether or not you have breached your duty of care, to a higher standard than if you are a volunteer as a general rule.

TJ,

You'll have some case law to back that up I presume? Not that the liability/compensation against a volunteer was less but that they owed a lower duty of care in the first place?

Your own assertion that as a registerred nurse you have a higher duty of care than a layman encountering a casualty (presumably 'offduty') seems to contradict the claim. The difference is not about your employment status but rather in what you could reasonably be expected to do.

As a club member I think I could reasonably expect that my club would organise its activities in a safe and responsible manner. I can reasonably expect that a club moving into a new type of activity will consider the risks involved. As a fellow "trail user" I can reasonably expect other trail users to show a duty of care. And if those other users are part of an organised group that the organisers will have shown reasonable care in planning and executing the activities. I'm not sure which part of this responsibility you think doesn't exist.

However since you claim to understand that the real purpose of risk assessment is about identifying, communicating, and reducing risk not about legislation/litigation the duty element is irrelevant.

Poly

We are getting all muddled up here in technical terms.

Its about what level of skill you can be expected to have. While I would expect a club leader to have a certain level of skill and above that of a layperson it would be unreasonable to expect them to have the same level of skill as a paid guide.

But, by virtue of the services they offer and supply, professional people hold themselves out as having more than average abilities. This specialised set of rules determines the standards against which to measure the legal quality of the services actually delivered by those who claim to be among the best in their fields of expertise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_negligence_in_English_Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_duty_in_English_law

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There are a lot of misconceptions on here about this.

So some facts.

1) There is no such thing in law as "at your own risk", so if an organised group is involved it is responsible wahtever you might think.
2) Everyone does RA's all the time. For example you don't step off a path into the path of a bus, because you have RA'ed the outcome and decided to minimise the risk by waiting till the roads clear.
3) Written RA's are no different and are for the organisers benefit. They enable you to demonstrate that you have fulfilled your duty of care to those that you are responsible for should you have the need to.
4) There is no need to do one until someone you lead falls, injures themself and as a result finds themself without an income or have to claim off their insurance. Roughly about that time the no win no fee bods arrive and thats when you will find you need the RA. Obviously if that eventuality is never going to happen you don't need one at all.
5) RA's don't need to be difficult and complicated, nor do they have to cover every imaginable eventuality. They just evidence the fact that you have looked at what you are doign and had a good think about how to keep what risks there obviously are under as much control as possible

General advice.

a) Check bikes are fit for purpose
b) Check riders are fit for purpose
c) If any have ailments like asthma make sure they have their inhaler/medication with them.
d) Assess ability and avoid taking them anywhere outside of their ability, or advise them to dismount where you have concerns.
e) Have first aid provision available
f) Pre ride the route and plan bail outs if needed and check phone coverage.
g) Lead the ride from the back, in your pre ride plan obvious stopping points that are easily recognised and advise lead riders to stop there once they reach each point and wait for you to close up.
h) Do a route plan/map and stick to it.
j) Make sure someone else has a copy and knows where you will be and when to expect you back.
k) Arrange for them to alert emergency services/assistance if you don't return/call in (from the pre planned phone-in point with good reception) within X period of that time.

Alternatively you might want to consider your answers to this question... Well Mr. X please show the court what steps you put in place to fulfill your duty of care to my clients deceased/disabled partner?

General advice.

a) Check bikes are fit for purpose
b) Check riders are fit for purpose
c) If any have ailments like asthma make sure they have their inhaler/medication with them.
d) Assess ability and avoid taking them anywhere outside of their ability, or advise them to dismount where you have concerns.
e) Have first aid provision available
f) Pre ride the route and plan bail outs if needed and check phone coverage.
g) Lead the ride from the back, in your pre ride plan obvious stopping points that are easily recognised and advise lead riders to stop there once they reach each point and wait for you to close up.
h) Do a route plan/map and stick to it.
j) Make sure someone else has a copy and knows where you will be and when to expect you back.
k) Arrange for them to alert emergency services/assistance if you don't return/call in (from the pre planned phone-in point with good reception) within X period of that time.

Alternatively you might want to consider your answers to this question... Well Mr. X please show the court what steps you put in place to fulfill your duty of care to my clients deceased/disabled partner?

Do you honestly do all that every time you go out for a ride? 😕

Do you honestly do all that every time you go out for a ride

Pretty much when I'm responsible for the safety of a group.

Why? Am i safe to presume then that you

a) never bother to check your bike before riding,
b) ride when it is self evident that you are not up to it for some reason,
c) leave important medications where you can't get them when you are quite likely to need them
d) ride everything regardless whether its within you or your bikes capabilities or not
e)don't take even the most basic of safety precautions
f)ride off with no knowledge of where you are, where you are going or how to get back
g) continuously lose contact with whoever you are riding with
j) never tell anyone where you are or when you are likely to be back

H and k I will admit I tend not to do when riding alone, but I do tell my Mrs the name of the loop I'm doing and the contact details of someone who knows it just in case.

To be honest most of that seems pretty basic and not terribly hard to me even when just riding with mates or on my own. Definately not much of an issue if I'm taking a group ride.

a & b

That's it

Hope I do not sound like a boring old f**t. However - For the past 10 years I have been a full time Mountain Bike Coach.

1) Would I take a group out before carrying out a risk assessment - No

2) Does a risk assessment need to be complicated - No

3) Hardest part of your Risk assessment is assessing the skill level of your group. Is this easy to do without observing them riding a bike off road - No

Obviously if you know the ability of your group this makes life much easier.

4) Is it easy to included some simple assessment techniques / off road techniques training to assess the level of your group - Yes.

I have little doubt, that the vast majority of people with little or no exprience of leading a group of mountain bikers off road, would benefit greatly from undertaking some form of risk assessment / basic coaching techniques training (specific to off-road riding).

Believe it or not (and I have done a lot of different jobs over many years) Coaching /Leading/ Guiding whichever you are involved in, is not as easy as many people may think.

Prepares for Flaming :o)

We are getting all muddled up here in technical terms.

you are indeed! But if you want to preach about "Duty of Care" its best you undestand what you are waffling about. You seem to have confused Duty of Care and "Professional Negligence". Not to worry, most of the medics I've met are a bit deluded into thinking they have a hard life where everyone is out to sue them because they are special.

Its about what level of skill you can be expected to have. While I would expect a club leader to have a certain level of skill and above that of a layperson it would be unreasonable to expect them to have the same level of skill as a paid guide.

Right, so now we have established you would expect someone organising a new type of club run for the first time for a bunch of people, potentially of varying skill/experience, to show "a certain degree of skill and care, above a layman" in organising the event what part of the risk assessment questions I originally proposed do you really think is inappropriate for the group organiser to be asking themselves? Which foreseeable circumstances do you think a guide can reasonably be expected to consider that a group organiser can not?

Coaching /Leading/ Guiding whichever you are involved in, is not as easy as many people may think.

ditto what Ray said

Poly - I have not confused it at all. I believe you have. you seemed to think the amateur and the professional are judged to the same standards. they are not.

I think your approach is confused and inappropriate. Its to prescriptive, too specific and at the same time far too limited and limiting

I could pull your approach apart bit by bit but it all seems rather pointless

Lets just agree to disagree on it. I have done substantial professional training on risk assessments and the surrounding law

Hope I do not sound like a boring old f**t. However - For the past 10 years I have been a full time Mountain Bike Coach.

And as it's your job I think that's quite expected.

Just can't see the need for it when you're going for a ride with your mates.

Agree BB. Going for a ride with my mates is a totally different thing, as then I am not leading the ride or coaching.

However, even then I have been told about the odd risk or two. So somebody must have carried out some form of RA, albeit a very basic one.

Just can't see the need for it when you're going for a ride with your mates.

... but then thats not what this thread is about when alls said and done.

Agree BB. Going for a ride with my mates is a totally different thing, as then I am not leading the ride or coaching.

However, even then I have been told about the odd risk or two. So somebody must have carried out some form of RA, albeit a very basic one.

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