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There aren’t many riders who write and take photographs that well
Very true. It's a real skill. I enjoy reading touring blogs but 99% are rubbish! Just go to crazy guy on a bike to see the noise signi ratio.
Well, I've got a name: how about 'Riding at the Limit'?
Limit in this case referring to ecological limits. And 'at' meaning as opposed to 'over' 🙂
Flixbus in France and elsewhere take bikes, German and Dutch low-speed trains take bikes. ALSA buses take bikes in Spain. In fact you can get most everywhere in Europe cheaply on public transport with your bike without flying.
You have spent 6k on a shiny new bike, why on earth would you not want to send the gnar on it. For many its not possible to do that locally, so a trip is the only way. Then kicks in the selfish human nature that is now the norm.
But that’s just daft isn’t it? I live just below the Kent North Downs so bought a short travel full sus which suits my local trails. Seems a bit weird to me to buy an enduro sled that I can only use to its full capabilities by driving 4 hours somewhere.
Local motion?
apart from the vans with giant plastic characters on top and PR people throwing useless tat at that crowds
Happens at Ft William DH WC every year. Shimano being the main culprit.
Limit in this case referring to ecological limits
Can the limit be defined?
Local motion
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Limit in this case referring to ecological limits
Can the limit be defined?
Not precisely I suppose. It would be easy enough to get a rough idea though.
Say, if you took, say, material consumption per person in the UK, or average carbon footprint, and looked how much these would need to come down to meet a sustainable global average, then just said, 'OK, try and get your mtb footprint to reduce by the same amount'.
I'd guess we're looking at about a 90% cut, so the aim could be travel 90% less by car to go biking, by 90% less new stuff, etc.
Interesting thread this. Mirrors my suspicions that most big brands have been going down a dodgy road with their evolutions. Glad that others have found sites like 'the Radavist' where they favour or seem to promote simpler more utilitarian bike brands. Builds that seem retro by todays standards but are in contrast sustainably tough, possibly assembled upcycling old parts (but equally suited to modern group sets) probably based around a frame made from steel, maybe even from a local builder. And the key thing is that the riders seem to be having a blast...
As many suspect the profit driven machinations of the big corporate brands churning new innovations in performance to tempt that major purchase are in contradiction to what is actually best suited to most riders usage and environmental sustainability. The 'tool' aspect of a simpler bike is a great characteristic where an appropriate design can enable a rider to have fun in their local riding, be something you can rely on for a big adventure and everything in-between and be a positive healthy thing for the individual and the planet. Feel myself getting fed up with the 'toylike' modern bikes that rely on X incompatible standards, expensive but not necesssarily robust components, things that need continual servicing to run, or bikes that indeed need plugging in to the grid to get anywhere - and in many cases the performance of these bikes is pushed to the point where it needs to go on the roof of your Audi to the artificial trail park to explore it's limits, and feels numb anywhere less.
Putting my TDF away earlier, I realised that I hadn't had a single puncture in 2 years of riding on all sorts of surfaces at all times of year. They're heavy old tyres and tubes, but no faff at all. Same chain, cassette, £50 S/H wheels that are absolutely bombproof etc etc. Left me feeling pretty chuffed. Could do with a clean though. 🙂
Would genuinely be up for a chat about a blog or something with anyone who's interested. Have a bit of experience in setting something up that went pretty well before, and looking for a new project...
I think the name needs to be something like 'A Ride in the Woods' or 'Ride the Neighbourhood', not anything too environmental, but something that promotes simpler times with a sustainability slant. And there's nothing wrong with highlighting gear from environmentally conscious and small indie brands, we've all got to buy new stuff sometimes.
Public transport, riding local, using durable/secondhand kit? Sounds like my approach, e.g. this spring - but I'm not under any illusion I'm saving the planet. A few hippies on cargo bikes won't achieve that, it'll take Draconian action by authoritarian regimes on a proxy-war footing. For every Greta Thunberg, there's a thousand myopic assholes wringing their hands over David Attenborough's plastic warnings while simultaneously clearing litter out of their cars onto the roadside. There's a fundamental disconnect here - exemplified by this thread, where we speculate how a non-essential leisure activity like mountain biking can be environmentally friendly.
I refer you to my post on page 2. 😉
FWIW I'd live to use the train more but bike spaces are so limited that it's mostly booked up. In fact I'd thought about riding back from Blair Atholl today but there's not one space on any train available.
There's so much good stuff coming out here, I'm finding it incredibly hard to take it all in, think about coherent responses, remember them and then try to formulate some response!
It's always frustrating to hear the "Chinese power-stations = what's the point?" line; I don't think that was the @legometeorolgy's angle, more a personal concern with their own impact. I've been trying to avoid the trite concept of mindfulness, but I think it fits.
We'll all NEED new stuff at some point, we'll all WANT new stuff and I'm sure we're all guilty of convincing ourselves that our old wheels are no longer as round as the new wheels.
Peer pressure is a hell of a thing too. Mostly I ride on my own, but on the odd occasion I hook up with local group rides, I feel incredibly self conscious turning up on an old rigid bike, in basically fairly normal clothing.
This leads me on to another problem, which is one of perception and hard cash. MTB'ing, as projected, is NOT a very accessible sport or hobby. Yes, you can have fun with an older cheap bike, but, if you're new to it, that's not what you'd be sold. The problem with this local/sustainable/durable side of MTB'ing or cycling in general, is that it's probably hopelessly unsexy. It's interesting that the people who do seem most in tune with this are the bikepacking and touring folk; why should that be? Is it because the focus tends to be on durability and actually a wider view of the world, not just a gravelled chute down a mountainside?
We're being sold on potential performance rather than real needs, in all areas of life.
I've been wondering for a while about the original singlespeed mtb movement and if the conditions that led people to do that then are similar now, or would that be co-opted and marketed back?
It's encouarging to see though, that there are a lot of people who do seem to feel the same way. I'd love to see this thread grow and not just wither away, but how to keep up momentum?
Another way of looking at it is looking to the outdoor industry to offset its impact.
If bike brands, clothing manufacturers got themselves to a point where they were all carbon neutral and consumers started to improve their attitude to consumerism by looking after their stuff more we could actually find ourselves in a carbon positive situation as an outdoor pursuit.
Then you can just look at the rest of your habits (cars, flights, meat, kids etc) and tackle them whilst you enjoy cycling guilt free!
the performance of these bikes is pushed to the point where it needs to go on the roof of your Audi to the artificial trail park to explore it’s limits, and feels numb anywhere less.
I agree but its also a different type of riding. wich is why many end up with 2 bikes.
I've noticed when looking at these American websites such as the Radavist that one of the most popular clothing brands you'll see is Patagonia, and I'm sure it's because as a brand their ethos has always been about ethical and traceable sourcing, sustainability, maximising usage and repairability. It's great example of what a brand should be and whats heartening is that their ubiquity seems to show that there's an appetite for that even if the initial outlay cost may be higher.
What's the bike equivalent of a brand such as Patagonia? (I'm sure there's other similar clothing brands now but can't think of many bike manufacturers that would fit the bill) There seems to be West Coast US scene of small scale steel frame brands supplying the gravel/ mtb hardtail market ie Crust/ All City Cycles- don't know anything about them but some look like they're local built rather than outsourced frame production. You would've thought that there's space for brands like that in the UK and could be the way forward if this type of production proves to be of lower impact. I fear the answer is that the average Californian may have more disposable $ to accommodate the inevitable higher cost in a quality locally made steel frame vs mass market import.
I'm sure there are actually quite a few brands or makers in this country already like that, but they're going to have a potentially small market share. This is where a website showcasing, collating and bringing this all to the fore is the way I see it happening.
Repair local,make local,buy local, ride local.
There is an association called EOCA that is for outdoor brands (some big ones signed up included Patagonia and North Face) that brings the companies together to work on environmental projects. It could, in future, also be some way of showcasing who does what.
No bike companies in it yet but suspect it could be more efficient if they joined EOCA rather than setting up a bike specific variant.
exemplified by this thread, where we speculate how a non-essential leisure activity like mountain biking can be environmentally friendly.
Or to look on the bright side which I rarely do on this topic - if we think about reducing the impact of something we relate to, that do for fun not need and are unlikely to stop, can it apply to other areas of life? I don't really compartmentalise life much. An attitude applied in one area tends to affect others.
There seems to be West Coast US scene of small scale steel frame brands supplying the gravel/ mtb hardtail market ie Crust/ All City Cycles- don’t know anything about them but some look like they’re local built rather than outsourced frame production.
Taiwan made and shipped around the world. All-City is part of QBP, Salsa and Surly etc.
Thanks Jameso- that blows my illusions. What would be great would be to see a brand that is transparent about it's sourcing of materials, it's production facilities and ultimately the carbon footprint of it's products - It's not something I've seen out there often and could even be something that's marketed as a positive thing. Or would we all be too horrified at the harsh reality of global economics? I remember a decade ago I bought an Ellsworth over another brand having been impressed by their attempts at the time towards a carbon neutral in-house factory, possibly with renewable power sources (was that real or just marketing?...long gone now i assume)- I'm glad I did, it was a great bike, and realise this positions me as 'not normal'.....but it shows it can influence buying decisions.
and realise this positions me as ‘not normal’…..
No less normal than buying a bike because a particular pro won a race series on it, or you thought it looked good? Any reason is a fair reason really.
Here y'go, great podcast - interesting ideas on bike leasing and overcoming the second hand stigma. Still reckon we're f@c£ed, mind, but it's nice that people like Isla Rowntree are trying to make a difference.
Leasing always seems to end up that the user get the raw deal in the end with so many extra charges or get outs by the leasing company that I can't see leasing bikes being the exception to the rule.
This leads me on to another problem, which is one of perception and hard cash. MTB’ing, as projected, is NOT a very accessible sport or hobby. Yes, you can have fun with an older cheap bike, but, if you’re new to it, that’s not what you’d be sold. The problem with this local/sustainable/durable side of MTB’ing or cycling in general, is that it’s probably hopelessly unsexy. It’s interesting that the people who do seem most in tune with this are the bikepacking and touring folk; why should that be? Is it because the focus tends to be on durability and actually a wider view of the world, not just a gravelled chute down a mountainside?
Au contraire. Bikepacking has taken off in a big way. What was a niche, with niche low volume suppliers, has become big business and the market is flooded with cheap, rip-off kit the same as any other. What's more there are an increasing number of bikepacking events, where folk are encouraged to travel across the country, or to another country, to participate and compete. And where there is competition, there is a demand for lighter, probably less durable equipment. Loads of folk (many on this forum) will have fully equipped themselves with bags, tents, stoves, luggage etc and many will have used them once or twice, some not at all - all based on some marketing dream of cosy evenings round a camp fire.
"No less normal than buying a bike because a particular pro won a race series on it, or you thought it looked good? Any reason is a fair reason really."
More of a knowing nod to the rep of Tony E.... But actually if brands displayed their eco credentials then it could become a 'primary' reason to favour that brand, for some people it could be as important as looks or other marketing. Patagonia are a prime example where all of their efforts are absolutely front and centre on their webpage...I like this a lot. If outdoor brands can operate like this and prosper then seeing as the bike industry has an equal end usage out there in the environment, it would be great to see more efforts from the bike brands. I see on that list of EOCA brands that many large outdoor brands are signed up, but no bike brands other than those with dual associations...Gore, Vaude, Thule are on there.....
That's a good shout and it would certainly help in raising consumer awareness, along with having a positive impact...
However, to really make a change towards sustainability, we have to confront the elephant in the room; the military industrial aviation complex...
The U.S. military’s greenhouse gas emissions are higher than most countries
Whilst I certainly condone sustainable practices, reduction in consumerism, responsible vehicle use and avoiding flying, even in the best case scenario the overall impact of the mtb industry casting it's gaze inward and focusing only on it's own activity would be relatively minimal; to really make a change, activism on the real sources of pollution (who are also responsible for much of the brainwashing of the planet crushing plunder led consumer dream) is essential.
Wanna know why airline owner Richard Branson funded a politically motivated benefit concert in Venezuela?
Oil...
The whole thing's just really ****ing depressing if you think about it too much. For every one person doing as much as they can, there's a thousand who don't GAF. New plastic bike? Aye. Drive (or fly!) to ride? Aye. A million electric gears with a chain three atoms wide that'll need to be replaced in a month's time? Yep, sign me up cos it'll look mint on instagram. And that's just the MTBers.
Me and my OH do as much as we can; no flying, no farmed meat, minimal dairy, no kids, car use down to a few times a month and I look out of the window at the people on our estate and I find myself thinking, 'why bother?' Energy drinks cans just chucked away, the odd fast food wrapper.They don't GAF. I want to do more, to try and get people to listen but I don't know how.
A million electric gears with a chain three atoms wide that’ll need to be replaced in a month’s time?
FWIW my experience from maintaining a fleet of hire bikes for a few years is that 9/10/11 speed kit has lasted much better than 8 speed. Could just be that only crappy 8 speed is still available of course....
Aye Kayla, am much the same as you. Consciousness does seem to be changing slowly, particularly in the younger generation, they're probably our only hope - but agree it will probably take heavy government legislation to affect the behaviour of a worrying irresponsible majority who just don't GAF ...and that's just not going to happen from our main political parties in fear of losing voters.
I just listened to that Isla Rowntree interview.
That was a really interesting and quite wide-ranging discussion.
She seems like an extremely astute business person as well as a lover of bikes, and it's an interesting discussion of balancing social responsibility/morality/environmental considerations with commercial concerns, consumerism and the bicycle as a consumer product, linear product life cycle and circular life cycle.
She has a brilliant philosophy and understanding of modern consumer culture and where it might be headed. She even won me round to the idea of a rented kids bikes
I really liked pretty much everything she has to say.
That interview has the kernel of several workable solutions to this threads specific topic... Could the bike rental thing work for other types of bike?
Islabike also sounds like a great company to work for...
As it was mentioned that it's ten years since 'The Age of Stupid' previously...an interesting 11 minute listen...and a Postlethwaite.
No worries, there's plenty of time, dunno what all those hippies are fussing about...
https://twitter.com/i/status/1155830186144862208
I'm not riding a rigid singlespeed
No one else is sharing my bikes
I wont stop buying shiny stuff
I wont stop driving to cool riding locations
I am offsetting all of this by not self-replicating
As for my carbon generating hobbies....well I didn't ask to be born did I
As birth rate falls, its actually people living longer that fill the world up. Yet, I never hear the people talking about population control offering to do something about it themselves.
I’m not riding a rigid singlespeed
No one else is sharing my bikes
I wont stop buying shiny stuff
I wont stop driving to cool riding locations
Realistically speaking, this is the most likely outcome for the vast majority of riders...
Even if these schemes were to have a significant uptake, the unfortunate fact is that it'd have very little impact on global climate change.
However, it's not all doom and gloom; Ethiopia have the right idea:
Ethiopia plants more than 350 million trees in 12 hours
Being as trees and plants breathe in nasty 'boil your grandchildren alive' carbon dioxide and breathe out 'soothing tranquility that chills the sun the **** out' oxygen, it can only be a good thing.
Couple that with the shade provided by trees and it's clear that whomsoever designed the planet in the 1st place had a pretty good handle on the concepts of maintaining life and/or ecological balance.
Now, whether DEFRA are gonna read this post and immediately scurry out throwing out subsidies to reclaim all the land that's been deforested over the centuries remains to be seen, but damn, it's better than boiling your grandchildren, even if it did mean market forces caused the price of meat to rocket, making it less taken for granted by the all consuming masses.
That said, careful placement of said trees allowing light to pass through to the forest floor would still allow photosynthesis and thus grazing...
-I don't have kids
-I have 2 (old secondhand) cars but did a total of 1000 miles between the pair of them last year
-I fly once a year, and always take the train on business travel despite the plane being half as long
-I'm a vegetarian
- I don't visit trail centres
So with all that in mind I'm more than happy to keep do my part in destroying the environment with a new bike every 18 months
This guy's potentially setting a good example, not sure what his travel habits are though
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/mathias-dammers-surly-krampus/