Do we know the circumstances contributing to the cyclists deaths? Without that info all of this seems a bit pointless
Cyclists running red lights in my city (Leeds) seems to be the norm.
It's not just the bicycle-shaped-objectists (the chavvy types riding around no-handed on a Tesco Special with a carrier bag full of cider on the bar while texting their crack dealer) who have no idea that cyclists should stop at red lights. More often than not its the lycra-clad club racer types who see no harm in barreling through a pelican crossing at 30 mph while people are crossing.
There has also been a huge increase in the amount of 'bike ninjas' riding lightless at night, especially around the university area.
I think the police need to crack down on bad drivers AND cyclists, because there's a hell of a lot of people out there who either haven't read the Highway Code or just don't give a s**t.
However bad cyclists might be, and however much there is a need for enforcement of traffic rules for cyclists, the reaction that it should be 2.5 tickets a week doesn't make any sense - what if there are no incidents that are against the law?
Why should people get ticketed when they have done nothing wrong just to meet a police target?
What if there are 40 incidents in a day, what then? is that over-quota and as such the "by-catch" need to be thrown back?
Will police officers do their quota and go home?
The use of quotas is perhaps the most obvious problem in that it does't even provide the framework to solve the problem, following on from that, the assumption that the victim is the one to blame for the problem of motorists killing people seems a bizarre situation to be in.
its potty to target police officers like that. just dumb. Focus should be on the road users killing people, i.e. those with internal combustion engines that weigh tons.
Walking from Hyde Park corner to the office each day this week. There are hordes of police monitoring traffic and looking to reduce cycling deaths.
I asked one policeman "Who is worse, cars or bikes?"
Reply "Both"
"Is this police presence working?"
"not really and everyone will revert next week anyway, if you want to cycle in London then you are braver than me"
So if a policeman does not see any genuine offence he has to fabricate one to meet his target?
I thought they'd already started this on the Downing St runSo if a policeman does not see any genuine offence he has to fabricate one to meet his target?
Focus should be on the road users killing people, i.e. those with internal combustion engines that weigh tons.
Unless the cyclist jumped a red light/had no lights/was being irresponsible.
As someone said above not enough facts about it all but ALL road users need to be looked at to make roads safer not just the biggest ones.
good to see nobody read the full article - where the senior police officer points out that the information has been misinterpreted, and the 'target' includes using ASL/boxes etc - which can only be done by motor vehicles. So rather than "book 40 cyclists" its actually "book 40 people who are potentially endangering cyclists" which may include the cyclists themselves or drivers. I'm not a big fan of targets - but if that makes the police pay attention to cycle related risks then surely its no bad thing.
Poly: true. But worth remembering it wasn't misinterpreted by the press. It was misinterpreted by a senior officer who ordered his subordinates to go out and'book' cyclists. Presumably everyone who was given that order has had it corrected.
As someone said above not enough facts about it all but ALL road users need to be looked at to make roads safer not just the biggest ones.
Given we have limited resources for traffic enforcement, we should target those resources where they will do the most good.
I suggest behaving badly in 1.5 tonnes of metal is likely to have more serious outcomes than behaving badly on 0.01 tonnes of metal/ plastic.
ti_pin_man - Memberits potty to target police officers like that. just dumb. Focus should be on the road users killing people, i.e. those with internal combustion engines that weigh tons.
Not always true. For example somebody linked me to this video the other day:
We need better education e.g. free [s]cycling proficiency[/s] bikeability instead of bits of road painted blue IMHO.
If the Police have to ticket people to stop them doing stuff like in that video, then so be it.
"misinterpreted" probably relates to the words "restricted not for publication"on the original email.
We need better education e.g. free cycling proficiency bikeability instead of bits of road painted blue IMHO.If the Police have to ticket people to stop them doing stuff like in that video, then so be it.
Of course, part of the problem is cycling infrastructure that encourages risky behaviour.
^^exactly and is the lorry not stopped ilegally in the ASL?
We need better education e.g. free cycling proficiency bikeability instead of bits of road painted blue IMHO.If the Police have to ticket people to stop them doing stuff like in that video, then so be it.
If you mean by "stuff like in that video" arresting the bloke who designed and signed off a road design that encourages people to ride up the inside of Hazardous Goods Vehicles for Corporate Manslaughter.
Then yes...that's one arrest that would really make a difference and concentrate some minds.
So long as we fixate on the vehicle drivers we will be perceived as a whining minority and fail to gather any public or press support for societal and infrastructure changes that are needed.
Any road user breaking the law should be ticketed or charged. If that means some of us get done whilst cycling, so be it.
But I agree we don't know all the facts on these incidents. And up until the last few awful weeks the cycling deaths in London were about half of last years number, so we need to concentrate on finding out why it suddenly went so wrong
by the way this is a classic Dead Cat issue...focussing on percieved bad behavior rather than the real issue.
The focus should be on designing cities so that mistakes by individuals do not have tragic consequences....that was a debate that was starting to happen...but the people who don't want that debate to take place have subveted it by focusing on the usual dogwhistle stuff...RLJ/headphones/helmet etc.
Don't even engage with it.
gwaelod is right.
You have to pass quite a difficult to test to ride a motorbike.
Riding a motorbike in London is TWICE as dangerous (in terms of KSI figures) as cycling.
As crazy as those cyclists are, i'm not sure even compulsory training would help reduce the KSI rate significantly.
gwaelod - Member
If you mean by "stuff like in that video" arresting the bloke who designed and signed off a road design that encourages people to ride up the inside of Hazardous Goods Vehicles
I totally agree about bike lanes, hence my comment about 'blue paint'.
kimbers - Member^^exactly and is the lorry not stopped ilegally in the ASL?
No idea, quite possibly, and I'd be all for the Police stopping drivers for that also if so.
But you both seemed to have missed the point where there is a lorry with it's left indicator on, and clearly no room to get in front of it.
Yes the lorry is in the wrong probably, and the bike lane designer is brain-dead. However why the **** are people putting themselves in a position where they are liable to be crushed? As I said, IMHO rider eduction and Policing is badly needed. Get all schoolkids doing bikeability for a start.
I'm liking gwaelod's posts that crossed with mine, especially the corporate manslaughter charge. If the CTC/CDF funded one of them.....
and the bike lane designer is brain-dead
Unfortunately the bike lane designer is very limited in what they can and can't do as far as road design is concerned. These daft, dangerous and stupid facilities are the only option in most cases because of ridiculous rules dreamt up by the motor-lobby, sorry Dept. for Transport. One could almost be forgiven for thinking that a lot of those in charge of the roads wanted to see cyclists maimed and killed.
Interestingly the cyclists in that video would've been breaking the law if they had entered the ASL area on the (safer) right hand side of the lorry because they'd need to cross the first stop line. Legally you can only enter an ASL (when the red light is showing) via the dashed entry lane.
It's the entire system that's to blame, not the individual cyclists, not individual lorry drivers/motorists.
Any road user breaking the law should be ticketed or charged. If that means some of us get done whilst cycling, so be it.
The reality is that only a tiny minority of law-breakers are caught, because resources are limited. So where would you target those resources?
Ransos - equally. A lot of truth in the comments about rider education, whether we like it or not.
im quite enjoying police on the busy junctions at the moment, in the small areas they cover ASLs are suddenly empty of cars drivers are indicating and i saw some muppet getting ticketed for riding on the pavement through a busy crowd of pedestrians toady.
Its a shame that there arent enough police to do this all the time
Ransos - equally. A lot of truth in the comments about rider education, whether we like it or not.
Well applying the law EQUALLY is a nice idea but that's not a measure to address safety. Consider a texting driver who mounts the pavement and a texting cyclist who mounts the pavement; the likelihood of causing serious injury or death to a person on the pavement is vastly greater in the former case. To apply the law equally is not to prioritise safety. It is a public relations exercise.
That's a (slightly) edited version of what Bez said in one of his numerous excellent blogs on road safety, you can read more here:
http://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/
What's happening here is a classic case of muddying the waters.
A lot of noise is made about HGVs being bad so the powers that be suddenly start shouting about helmets, headphones, RLJing and before you know it, the main issue (HGVs mixing with bikes on shockingly substandard infrastructure) is brushed aside while the media go into a feeding frenzy on cyclists who, by and large, aren't doing anything wrong or, where they ARE doing something wrong like RLJing, the consequences are still pretty minor for everyone else. Irritating maybe but generally pretty minor.
And anecdotal evidence from people stopped in London and Manchester suggests that cyclists are being targeted more than motorists, possibly because they're a lot easier to stop.
Ransos - equally. A lot of truth in the comments about rider education, whether we like it or not.
We'll agree to disagree then. Last year, 1800 people were killed on our roads. Of those 1800, 1 was killed by a cyclist. I would target limited resources where they are likely to do the most good.
Consider a texting driver who mounts the pavement and a texting cyclist who mounts the pavement;
An anecdote from my ride into town yesterday: I had to brake for a cyclist who pulled out of a side road without looking and brake for a motorist who appeared to be checking their phone. They were both guilty of much the same thing, yet I know who put me in more danger...
Chris Boardman nails it there, I'm all for stopping RLJing/lightless cyclists and giving them some advice/fine but as CB says
“If you don’t have the resources to prosecute everyone who breaks the law, then it makes sense to start with the people who can cause the most harm and work down from there. The bigger and heavier the vehicle you have got, the more damage you are going to do,” he said. “I certainly would not let law-breaking cyclists off the hook but they wouldn’t be top of my list.”
An anecdote from my ride into town yesterday: I had to brake for a cyclist who pulled out of a side road without looking and brake for a motorist who appeared to be checking their phone. They were both guilty of much the same thing, yet I know who put me in more danger...
But, if you were driving a car not riding a bike, the car on car would have had both drivers walking away from bent metal, the car on cyclist would have been a lot worse.
what about cyclist on cyclist?
Having read the whole linked article I'm choosing to read it as the Police being Gee'd along in their duty to detect and enforce the law for [U]All[/U] road users, and one just senior officer with limited literacy misunderstood, that error has been corrected now...
So Yeah, OK, after a particularly bad couple of weeks on London roads you would hope that the Rozzers are going to make a more concerted effort at preventing people dying, and some of that effort will go [I]against[/I] the odd cyclist, ultimately its all for the greater good.
There's not really much to actually get upset about...
Rather than Targets for ticketing being set I'd rather the police simply bumped up their presence on the streets (given their limited resources) and then just published the numbers for the various types of offence detected as simple, unedited, monthly Stats so we could all merrily argue the toss over RLJing cyclists Vs ASL stopping lorries for the months of December and January...
The only overriding "Target" the Police should have is to make roads safer by making road users more aware of the factors affecting their safety, and transgressors more likely to face a penalty...
This Tickled me Though:
Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, said last week that he would not cycle in London but understood why some people might if they could not afford to take public transport.
Just in case you thought Bernard was out of touch, He fully understands that it's only really poor people who cycle in London... Bless.
what about cyclist on cyclist?
Oooh, sexy.... 😉
But, if you were driving a car not riding a bike, the car on car would have had both drivers walking away from bent metal, the car on cyclist would have been a lot worse.
I'm talking about the danger posed to me as a cyclist.
Not always true. For example somebody linked me to this video the other day:www.youtube.com/watch?v=leW8Mx1GciE
We need better education e.g. free cycling proficiency bikeability instead of bits of road painted blue IMHO.
If the Police have to ticket people to stop them doing stuff like in that video, then so be it.
This. You see this every day in every city.
Poor road skills are not just evident in motorists, a hell of a lot of people on our roads need a crash course in safety.
The 'well car drivers are driving a heavy lump of metal therefore they need dealing with first' is EXACTLY the same "I am above everyone else" attitude that cyclists moan about in car drivers.
The 'well car drivers are driving a heavy lump of metal therefore they need dealing with first' is EXACTLY the same "I am above everyone else" attitude that cyclists moan about in car drivers.
Do you really not understand that if you concentrate your resources on dealing with errant cyclists you'll save a lot less lives than concentrating the same resources on drivers? Cars simply aren't the same as bicycles - to treat them equally is absurd if your aim is road safety.
Story from Thanet RC,
Member riding home form work when a cop car over takes pulls over and stops him.
Copper “You should get off the road and be on the pavement.”
Cyclist “No I shouldn’t” (quotes verbatim relevant highways acts)
Argument ensues with the traffic cop is, then threatening to arrest the cyclist, At this point he reaches into his back pocket and produces this chief super warrant card.
Cyclist “My office first thing you come on shift tomorrow”.
Careful who you pick on.
They were near Elephant and Castle today. They seem to have given up fining people (too many) and were simply shouting at people from the curb. They did stop the lady who nearly rear ended me whilst i was stopped at the front of the ASL though.
None of them seem to be able to agree whether it was legal to jump the red light by using the pavement here (heading onto a215 Walworth road) ...
http://goo.gl/maps/XXPHu
My question this evening was going to be the legality of riding in earphones.
My thoughts as a seasoned motorcyclist however begs where does this persecution complex come from in people who ride cycles.
where does this persecution complex come from in people who ride cycles.
Constant hate messages from most of the general media and general public. A small but significant number of motorists who think it is perfectly acceptable to run us off the road or kill/maim us.
where does this persecution complex come from in people who ride cycles.
Being driven off the road on a club ride a couple of months ago. Clubmates had a word. Response 'don't care'
Having a speeding car driving straight at three of us on a country road in February - closing speed close to 50mph, having to drop my shoulder whilst riding in the last 6 inches of the road to avoid being hit
Being screamed at to 'get out of my way, your supposed to pull over' by some mad woman a couple of weeks ago.
Horn leaned on when I paused for two seconds to take a right turn...
Get similar treatment when driving but it's occasional rather than several times a journey...
Do you really not understand that if you concentrate your resources on dealing with errant cyclists you'll save a lot less lives than concentrating the same resources on drivers? Cars simply aren't the same as bicycles - to treat them equally is absurd if your aim is road safety.
A lot of it is a PR campaign, to give the impression cyclists are above the law by not enforcing the laws they brake is just asking for trouble.
In the grand scheme of things of few traffic cops looking for cyclists is very small compared to the amount that are on the roads looking for motorists every day.
[i]My thoughts as a seasoned motorcyclist however begs where does this persecution complex come from in people who ride cycles. [/i]
Ride a bike in the city on the road for a week. That'll usually answer your question.
critical mass die in tonight at TFL offices, blackfriars
[img] 
[/img]
personally i think if they want to make more impactthey should protest outside barclays
critical mass die in tonight at TFL offices, blackfriars
[img] [/img]
personally i think if they want to make more impact they should protest outside barclays
Loads of plod at my local cross-roads/junction/boris blue highway tonight stopping cyclists to 'advise' them about lights and hi-viz.
The same stretch of road that takes me about 2min to walk along when going to sainsburys where to make the amble pass a little quicker I count the number of drivers on mobiles/texting. My record is 6 for the out and return journey.
Where are the police then?
I did utter the words "a pathetic waste of resources" as I walked past but they were probably too busy thinking about their next donut to respond.
Linked to from BikeTradeBuzz - read the full transcript:
[url= https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/uk.rec.cycling/UAPRKMEHaD8/qvJgUJVtLdAJ ]linky[/url]
😀
Linked to from BikeTradeBuzz - read the full transcript
Great. Even the Police are harassing cyclists on the basis of total ignorance and falsehoods...