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The biggest problem of cyclists is refusal to slow down break their overall speed. I know it takes extra effort to speed up again. That reluctance leads to some close up last moment panick decisions by both cyclist and a driver. Undertaking moving vehicles and slow acceleration from traffic lights provokes a lot of aggro too.
Making London into Cycling heaven ... not a chance. Try that in Moscow, New York, Paris, Tokyo? London so far did very well, give good credit for trying. The whole green idea is a non starter. Its either ban motorvehicles and kill economy or pretend trying to do something and get casualties.
I cycle to work and drive in central London.
molgrips - MemberI do think that the percentage of bad cyclists is going down, actually.
Since I nearly got killed jumping the lights at the IMAX on my Brompton, by one at least... 🙂
Does anyone else think this current run of deaths is down to TFL's FORS stickers on the back of lorries and busses telling the cyclist to stay back?
Thus the HGV/PSV driver sits secure in the knowledge that he/she has already exercised their duty of care to the cycling road users around them by having that sticker on the back of their vehicle. They are now free to make their left/right/change-of-lanes-turn with less regard for cyclists, than they used to before the sticker was put there.
To my mind TFL have done a Pontius Pilate hand-wash jobby and ignored the problem. Their answer is to put the onus entirely onto the cyclist.
The Highway Code (on my last reading of it...10 years ago!!)does/did allow undertaking in limited circumstances, such as in one way street systems, and in slow moving traffic.
LONDON IS SLOW MOVING TRAFFIC FROM ONE END OF THE BASTARD TOWN TO THE OTHER!
TFL's FORS stickers on the back of lorries and busses telling the cyclist to stay back?
Imagine cyclists with stickers on their backs attempting to tell other traffic users to behave. That wouldn't get anyone's backs up 🙂
I do realise these stickers on the backs of lorries/vans/buses are for a cyclist's safety so not knocking them.
The biggest problem of cyclists is refusal to slow down break their overall speed. I know it takes extra effort to speed up again.
I followed but not closely a roadie very early on Saturday morning whilst taking my kids swimming, from his speed, build and his bike you could tell he was experienced, he was wearing all black with no lights, as he hit a roundabout with good amount of speed, he would have been able to see the oncoming car to his right (I did) but he rode straight out in front of it rather than stop, how the car didn't hit him I don't know. I ride a road bike too from time to time and when I see stuff like that it really pisses me off as we can all get tarred with the same brush just because of a selfish few
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24999302 ]BBC Boris[/url]
I hope he finds a legal way to ban headphones on cyclists. In London headphones are just suicide.
whilst I wouldn't wear earphones and cycle myself that is about as useful as banning people from using a mobile whilst driving.
ffs Boris is a dick
banning headphones, what kind of idiot thinks that will protect someone from an HGV turning across them?
still its an excellent daily mail friendly way of turning the debate away from the obvious fact that the roads in london just cant handle bikes and trucks together
banning headphones, what kind of idiot thinks that will protect someone from an HGV turning across them?
We have five senses - what kind of idiot doesn't use as many as possible while cycling in potentially lethal traffic?
If there is a lorry in my blind spot about to turn into me, I generally hear it. If I hear it I know it's there, and if I know it's there I can brake so it misses me.
I have actually cycled a few times with headphones, and I realised that every car appearing in my peripheral vision was a complete surprise. And surprises are the last thing you want when riding in traffic IMO.
senses - what kind of idiot doesn't use as many as possible while cycling in potentially lethal traffic?
Plus one
yeah I try and taste unseen traffic all the time
the sound of an HGV is easy enough to hear whilst wearing headphones and relying on your hearing to warn of other traffic is foolish*, look and look again,
especially when crossing a poorly designed junction/ roundabout which is where these deaths are concentrated
*also other cyclists make no noise and a Prius is virtually silent on the roads
PJ said:
We have five senses - what kind of idiot doesn't use as many as possible while cycling in potentially lethal traffic?
Can you actually distinguish traffic noise from traffic noise that's going to bump into you?
Might as well ban cycling with a blocked nose.
Does anyone else think this current run of deaths is down to TFL's FORS stickers on the back of lorries and busses telling the cyclist to stay back?Thus the HGV/PSV driver sits secure in the knowledge that he/she has already exercised their duty of care to the cycling road users around them by having that sticker on the back of their vehicle. They are now free to make their left/right/change-of-lanes-turn with less regard for cyclists, than they used to before the sticker was put there.
To my mind TFL have done a Pontius Pilate hand-wash jobby and ignored the problem. Their answer is to put the onus entirely onto the cyclist.
As I've pointed out on other threads like this, TFL & the City of London Corporation have made it compulsory for HGV's operating on their behalf to have Side-Scan fitted - not the cheap, rebadged parking sensor kits but the pucker ones. It's taking a while for them all to get done but it is, at least, a work in progress.
I know someone involved in the exercise & there was recently a large gathering of the firms involved to discuss and promote this (amongst other issues). There is a long term plan being formulated with initial steps such as reducing speed limits already being implemented.
[url= http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/services/transport-and-streets/traffic-management/road-danger-reduction/Documents/road-danger-reduction-plan-2013-supporting-technical-document.pdf ]Here is the report they are currently using[/url] which has some very interesting statistics for all road users in London.
The one thing my friend said he'd noticed wasn't changing for the better was driver's attitudes - he feels that that a large proportion of the HGV drivers he's come into contact with don't think they'll even be prosecuted if they have a collision with a cyclist let alone be punished severely - apparently one bus driver he spoke to was extolling the fact that if it happened while he was driving he'd "get loads of time off to get over the trauma".
It's a situation that clearly needs education on both sides but maybe some proper sentencing on careless/dangerous drivers would be a start.
banning headphones, what kind of idiot thinks that will protect someone from an HGV turning across them?
The only person who can do something about the situation you've just described is the idiot cyclist who put himself on the inside of an HGV turning left....Darwin award candidate.
Seriously, these deaths are awful but the riders who put themselves in the blind spot of buses, HGVs etc are not helping themselves.
I appreciate your compassionate and considered response deviant but the CS2 deaths in particular seem to have involved cyclist put there by the blue painted cycle lanes that lead then up the inside of trucks.
Can you actually distinguish traffic noise from traffic noise that's going to bump into you?
Do vehicles sound quieter the further from you they get? Or are they just small? 😉
Might as well ban cycling with a blocked nose.
Good idea. Let's shut our eyes too and use the force.
Can you actually distinguish traffic noise from traffic noise that's going to bump into you?
Yes, I can. I have two ears, so I can tell where something is and how close it is. A lorry closing in close behind me is very audible and thanks to years of practice using my ears quite alarming. That's the point where I tend to look round.
relying on your hearing to warn of other traffic is foolish
Of all the utterly ridiculous arguments.. 🙄
I don't RELY on my hearing for ****'s sake, I don't shut my ****ing eyes! I use ALL my senses to their maximum potential. Primarly my eyes, but they only look infront. If you are constantly looking behind you then you're not looking forward. Ears provide an early warning system so that you can then deploy your eyes.
I honestly can't believe I'm having to tell people how to use their senses! How ****ing important is your MP3 collection that you have to lose or impede one of your senses in a potentially dangerous situation just to be with it every second of the day.
For ****'s sake get a grip!
a Prius is virtually silent on the roads
Actually not true. Most noise coming from a petrol car at 30mph is made by the tyres, and Priuses have those.
yeah I try and taste unseen traffic all the time
Kimbers on way to work earlier today. :p
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Deviant..
The only person who can do something about the situation you've just described is the idiot cyclist who put himself on the inside of an HGV turning left....Darwin award candidate.
That's simply not the case - you're attributing blame to cyclists when you don't know the circumstances.
To give you an example, I was knocked off my bike by a bus this week. I was overtaking a line of parked cars. The bus was behind me, overtook (or rather tried to overtake), I was about mid point, between front and rear wheels with the bus when it veered left into space between the parked cars getting to a bus stop. I was getting to the space, I was pushed left into the kerb, puncturing my front tyre and throwing me onto the pavement. Do I qualify for a Darwin award? Apart form not cycling, there is *nothing* I could do. I was cycling at a safe distance from the cars, the bus overtook me me partially on the other side of the road.
You basically called a bunch of dead cyclists idiots when there is little or no information on the circumstances surrounding the accidents.
Seriously, these deaths are awful but the riders who put themselves in the blind spot of buses, HGVs etc are not helping themselves.
If that's what they did. Something you don't know.
It's fairly callous to attribute blame to people without knowledge of circumstance.
Signs on buses: boils my piss, I have written to Andrew Gilligan ccing Boris (no reply as yet) to say: the roads are SHARED, they do not 'belong' to buses therefore the signs are unlawful, further that the signs are divisive, and only serve to reinforce motorists' views that cyclists are a nuisance or not part of traffic. I have invited them to take the notices down.
In the meantime am working on a notice of my own - to go on my back - which will say
BUSES
STAY BACK
Using ears as early-warning devices: I get a lot of clues from listening to tyres - along with engine note I can tell if the following vehicle is accelerating/braking/swerving violently or aggressively or if they are following me in a reasonable manner.
I can usually tell if there's a bus (they must have some kind of auto box as I can hear the torque converter winding up) so I know to look ahead for a bus stop as if there is, there's a possibility that I will get overtaken and then cut up immediately.
etc - listening has served me well over the years
Using ears as early-warning devices: I get a lot of clues from listening to tyres - along with engine note I can tell if the following vehicle is accelerating/braking/swerving violently or aggressively or if they are following me in a reasonable manner.
Well put. When hearing one of the aggressive drivers I tend to move into the curb regardless. That sort of driver tends to wait for nothing and will squeeze through without a care.
Drivers of small cars, too. It's the one with the high-pitched engine tone that isn't decelerating - you know they're coming through at full tilt because they believe there's enough room on the carriageway between the central markings for them and you. Again I move to avoid probable collision.
kimbers, would you drive off a cliff if the road you were on led you to it?....of course you wouldnt, cyclists are under no obligation to use the cycle lane if they think its dangerous....if the cycle lane leads up the nearside of vehicles turning left and puts you between said vehicles and railings for example then you'd have to be pretty stupid to do this.
Paddy, i'm only referring to incidents when a cyclist puts themselves in danger.
In your case the bus driver is entirely at fault...but if the traffic was stationary and a cyclist filters to the front and to the left of vehicles waiting to turn left (putting themselves in a blind spot to compound matters) then the cyclist has to take some of the blame for that...its beyond stupid.
I skimmed through the article and it does say the HGV was turning left, there has been enough publicity about this kind of incident now that if cyclists are still doing this then i struggle to have any kind of sympathy, sorry.
My brain seems to do a lot subconsciously with sound. For example my heart jumps into my mouth suddenly when I hear an engine accelerate towards me, in my lane when there's no room to pass. Then my conscious brain realises it's a motorbike and there's plenty of room for a safe pass..!
Riding along the A6 towards Belper in Derbyshire on Sat morning, passing a parking lay-by with a truck in it. (RH drive, UK plated). Just passed the back of the trailer & he suddenly swings out to do a U-turn. 😯
We had lights (good ones), High-Vis etc. Luckily having to mount the kerb (& probably take out the hedge given how long the thing was) slowed him, giving us time to get out of his way. I was speechless, & needed clean underwear.
Well put. When hearing one of the aggressive drivers I tend to move into the curb regardless. That sort of driver tends to wait for nothing and will squeeze through without a care
See, I tend to do the opposite. I move out deliberately so there isn't the possibility of the person squeezing past. Yes it might annoy them but it is a sight safer than being pushed into the gutter / curb (this happened to me when I was 'learning' to commute)
If you regularly ride the same routes I find it is nearly always the same roads / places that I get near misses or buzzed. This points more to road design than impatient drivers imo. There is one road I ride along which has sunken drains approx 2-3 foot out into the road whilst just being wide enough to let cars past if you are about 1 foot from the curb. Dangerous for cyclists.
Oh and I ride with headphones, have for several years, it is possible to have music playing at a volume where you can hear everything that is going on around you as well. By the same dumb thought process we should ban radios in cars. And maybe even drivers talking to their passengers?!
[quoteWell put. When hearing one of the aggressive drivers I tend to move into the curb regardless. That sort of driver tends to wait for nothing and will squeeze through without a care
I tend to do the opposite. I move out deliberately so there isn't the possibility of the person squeezing past. Yes it might annoy them but it is a sight safer than being pushed into the gutter / curb (this happened to me when I was 'learning' to commute)
And me, take the whole lane and make youself big. If you move over you're just encouraging them to think that they can squeeze past.
Oh and I ride with headphones, have for several years, it is possible to have music playing at a volume where you can hear everything that is going on around you as well. By the same dumb thought process we should ban radios in cars. And maybe even drivers talking to their passengers?!
The difference is that a driver does not use his/her hearing to the same degree a cyclist does (or can, should they choose). I tend to drive without music so I can hear the engine (and music is normally a distraction unless I'm on a long, straight motorway when it becomes an aid), but I know I'm probably in a minority doing this. That said, I still can't hear other cars while in one, thus making it fairly irrelevant.
On a bike however, I can hear what other traffic is doing and it's incredibly useful. Why you'd want to compromise that baffles me.
Oh and I ride with headphones, have for several years, it is possible to have music playing at a volume where you can hear everything that is going on around you as well. By the same dumb thought process we should ban radios in cars. And maybe even drivers talking to their passengers?!
Strange how stupid drivers both cant see me or hear me when i have a rant a few feet from their vehicle, both deaf and blind it appears. or just ignorant
I agree that road users with headphones are a hazard to themselves and to others. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that, if you're in the road, you shouldn't have headphones on. The ones I mostly see where this would be a step forward for safety are pedestrians.
A question for BoJo and the Headphone Haterz will/should the ban also apply to motorbike and moped riders, deaf people and pedestrians crossing the road ?
I tend to do the opposite.
I understand your viewpoint, guys. I'm no newb to this road riding malarkey - I've been cycling for transport for 28 years and I'm familiar with assertive riding - I just think it largely depends on the road, the time and the situation.
The particular road I'm prepared to move gutterside on has numerous drains about every 20 yards or so and the surrounding 'road' has collapsed leaving deep holes. In order to avoid these you have to sit out about 80cm. I consider this to be a safe distance for a cyclist to sit and you'd think it was out enough to stop drivers squeezing through but no, the road is just wide enough for cars to get through the gap between me and the white line with about 8 inches to spare. While I dislike having cars this close to me, I have no problem if the traffic is moving slowly. At 50mph+ it becomes a little unsettling and as some drivers will blast through regardless of that distance and their speed, I'd rather just tuck out of the way. I know I could sit that little bit further out but it feels ridiculous and I would imagine that to the average car driver, it would appear as if I was an antagonistic cyclist looking for trouble.
It's a tough call but you have to call it at the moment. I've had three knocks on that road - only one driver was decent enough to stop. So many close shaves I've lost count.
a driver does not use his/her hearing to the same degree a cyclist does
good point. convertibles for everyone! ( or at least no windows )
Well, all this debate (not just on here) spurred me on to get a new helmet for commuter journeys, so I got a nice [s]shiny[/s] err, matt black Bern Watts helmet. Fit is very good, will keep the majority of rain off and not too voluminous for my oversized melon.
Obviously matt black isn't really an ideal commuter choice, so I got busy with some left over scotch tape. Quite pleased with the result, even if no-one else is!
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/10950038305_2ac166b134.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/cheesyfeet/10950038305/ ]New helmet[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/cheesyfeet/ ]-Cheesyfeet-[/url], on Flickr
[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/10950274623_711005961a.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/cheesyfeet/10950274623/ ]New helmet[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/cheesyfeet/ ]-Cheesyfeet-[/url], on Flickr
A question for BoJo and the Headphone Haterz will/should the ban also apply to motorbike and moped riders, deaf people and pedestrians crossing the road ?
I don't think the plod would look kindly upon motorbike / moped riders listening to their iPods. As for daft peds glued to their phone that step out into traffic - we can live in hope, eh? 😉
Some times an aggressive driver values their ego or road position more than your safety or the risk of a scratch to their vehicle or the risk of legal consequences (which seem low).... If a sixth sense tells you this is the driver behind you then bailing for the curb IS sometimes the right answer.
If you've cycled assertively long enough then you'll have come across drivers that see that assertion as a challenge, I have. I've brushed with drivers when minding my own business on quiet wide roads too....some drivers are just ****s. Recognising them and avoiding them is a valuable skill.
we can all get tarred with the same brush just because of a selfish few
I can think of no other minority group in any other context who would ever trot out logic like this. Cyclists have a kind of stockholm syndrome.
If any driver tells you that the actions of other cyclists give you, as a cyclist, a bad name, ask them what they're planning to do about drink driving, seeing as other people's drink driving gives them, personally, such a bad name.
If any driver tells you that the actions of other cyclists give you, as a cyclist, a bad name, ask them
In my experience, when drivers are screaming abuse at you about running red lights, they tend not to stop and listen to your retorts, however pithy.
We have five senses - what kind of idiot doesn't use as many as possible while cycling in potentially lethal traffic?
What kind of idiot chooses to cycle in potentially lethal traffic?
I was born in London and when I worked there I cycled for six years and motorcycled for twelve, in London and all over Britain. I have also driven vans and three-tonners as a job for several summers in London and the Midlands, so I feel I should have some experience of both sides of the coin.
On van driving: I was an inexperienced van driver and trailer tower in my early twenties and didn't really give a damn about much, least of all my road manners. There was no satnav so I was often lost or distracted and in a hurry to make a drop or pick up, I drove too fast and recklessly, even aggressively and treated the van with no mechanical sympathy because it didn't belong to me and nobody at the company seemed to be bothered. I certainly received zero training in towing or securing a load so I had to learn everything by trial and error. I don't know how I managed to avoid an accident except that in the 80s there was less traffic and I guess vehicles were slower. I do remember some close shaves though as well as some nightmares with the trailer.
On 3 ton truck driving: I was completely untrained and inexperienced but they gave me the keys wth the words: "Never driven one of these? You'll crash it within the week!" You can do a lot of damage with a loaded 3 ton truck with air brakes and despite also having some close shaves, luckily the worst that happened was that I nearly demolished Stafford General Infirmary.
I like to think that van and truck drivers are better trained nowadays but I suspect that the "don't care" attitude still prevails amongst many of them, as well as the distraction.
On cycling, I can't remember a single bad incident in six years of commuting in London and on motorcycling the only incidents I remember were all my own fault and caused by excess speed out on the open road.
Nowadays I seldom cycle in traffic because I have to drive to commute so all my cycling is on empty country roads. When I am in cities and I see the behaviour of some (not all) cyclists I shake my head in amazement that they are allowed to get away with such reckless stupidity. I see it all, riding with earphones, no lights, dressed in dark street clothing and of course the red-light jumpers, the pavement riders and the one-wayers. I even berated a bloke once for weaving against a red light through traffic crossing a junction, but I just got the expected abuse back. If the Police and PCSOs could be bothered to do anything about it and actually ENFORCE the law by fining some of the idiots and even confiscating bikes in lieu of a fine, word would soon get around and the bad behaviour would mostly stop. Unfortunately nowadays the tiny numbers of Police still working have given up patrolling and enforcing so there's never been a better time to break the law; as witnessed by the announcement recently that drink-driving is thought to be increasing. This applies as much to drivers as to cyclists, before anybody jumps down my throat.
The only answer is education and a few well-publicised prosecutions; otherwise the idiocy will continue on all sides.
Are some of you really trying to say wearing head/earphones does not reduce your ability to hear, or increase your level of risk?
You might say you can still hear with the volume low, but can you honestly say you can hear as well as without?
What others do in regards to listening to music or not being able to hear as well, or indeed at all, has no consequence to your own situation except potentially increasing the risk to you.
You can make a simple choice to minimise the risks under your control by using all your senses. Trotting deaf people out is a spurious argument, they don't have a choice in the matter.
Cycling with headphones just tells me you lack the intellect to think in abstract terms about the possible consequences; a sign of stratospheric stupidity.
It IS different for car drivers... in case you hadn't noticed a car weights over a ton, occupies a large chunk of road space and has windows, which prevent the driver from hearing environmental noise anyway. It also has mirrors and (usually) a driver who is trained to check before a manoeuver.
@Euro: people who work in London and wish to get there by bicycle.
For the record, when I hear a driver racing me for a pinch point (there are a few on my way home where this happens with monotonous regularity) I make sure I am well out in the lane, unless I hear from the tyres/engine note that the driver is nonetheless bent on getting there first. This rarely happens though, as there are parked cars too, so I am already door-and-a-bit-more away from them so there is no great additional movement required in order to control the pinch point.
There is a feature coming on bbc breakfast regarding the last two weeks, will be interesting to see how biased it is!
@Euro: people who work in London and wish to get there by bicycle.
It's been over 20 years since i last spent any time in London but i recall there being footpaths beside the roads. Have they all gone?
I know some people like to adhere to the law/highway code completely, but if by doing so you put yourself in danger then the law/code is a crock. I ride on the footpaths as much as possible. If it's too busy there, i'll nip onto the road until it's clear enough and pop back on again. Am i breaking laws/codes? Probably, but i don't care - [b]there are far too many inattentive drivers on the roads[/b]. It's not safe for cyclists at present, and unless something drastic is done, it never will be.
p.s. i've never even been close to hitting a pedestrian before anyone starts - and if that days comes, i doubt it would be fatal.