Money no object multi-use hardtaill?

My Rå .410. It’s my only HT, but it’ll do everything all my other bikes do, save for maybe the fast road bike. As for money no object, well, I have somewhat of a reputation in these parts…

I bought one - a shand bahookie with rohloff. Its a bit compromised at the extremes of wanderingaboutthescenery biking but as a do it all bike its good

Full custom build from the welder whose aesthetics you like the most.

Yeti ARC

Stanton Sherpa.

The correct answer is always a BTR Ranger.

https://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/readers-rides-bike-check-james-btr-ranger/

Santa Cruz Chameleon? I mean, at least money will have to be no object!

Ibis 29" Tranny.
Will take a suspension or rigid fork and as money is no object, replace the rear triangle with their special 170mm spaced version for WildWinterbiking®

And its carbon. And you'll get a proper headbadge and its a lovely bike.

I'd get someone like Travers to make a titanium copy of my Mk1 Solaris. That really is a do it all bike, but a ti version would be lighter and just nicer😁

All your purposes are very different - so whatever you have got will need to be a compromise. I’d go with a 140mm forked 29er hardtail. Not too hardcore geometry - maybe 65 degree head angle / 75 degree seat angle / a sensible reach for your height etc.

I’d go to Curtis and get their AM9 with some custom tweaks. I’d then get their clear polished finish with clear lacquer over it I think. Unless I got it custom painted with some wild flip sort of thing - maybe candy paint with a layer of spectraflare over the top.

I would go frame only though and pick my own build kit. Probably a Lyrik Ultimate at 140mm travel, industry 9 hydra hubs on some bling carbon rims, Shimano XTR group set with those ti e-wings cranks, Trickstuff Maxima brakes, Bikeyoke dropper, Oneup carbon bars + a nice bling stem etc.

https://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/frames/am-enduro-trail/curtis-am9/

I have a custom Marino 140mm 29er hardtail, it's surprisingly multi faceted. I'm tempted to get some slicks to try it out but as I have a gravel/road bike it's not really necessary.

My 18 No.9, 2 years on it's still bloody ace, the new ones look amazing.

Came on to say 18 Bikes No.9 and just beaten to it.

I’d get someone like Travers carbon wasp to make a titaniumcarbon copy of my Mk1longshot Solaris. That really is a do it all bike, but a ticarbon version would be lighter and just nicer

Tbf I’d happily take titanium or carbon and a mk1 or a longshot but I reckon the longshot version at yeti arc weight would be an absolutely phenomenal bike

This.
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Also this.
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It depends on what matters most at the ends of “multi-use” for you. I wouldn’t want to do an XC race on my Pipedream Moxie but it would still work for that. I would like to do an uplift day on it. And everything else in between is fine too.

Came on to say 18 Bikes No.9 and just beaten to it.

Man of taste

everyone will put forward what they own obviously.
i bought a Salsa Fargo Ti built with a rohloff as my one bike to do it all.
i dont do jump lines, but it covers everything else you mentioned including Leeds bike park.
so for my kind of riding it is perfect............. BUT, if i were to ride the stuff i rode 10-15 years ago, i would get a stainless steel or Ti custom frame made, something along the lines of a solaris max, with a 130mm air fork and obviously a rohloff or pinion fitted.

everyone will put forward what they own obviously

Not me - I wish I owned a Curtis like I suggested above but decided the cost of the frame was too much - I’d have had to compromise to much in the build kit. I also went Pike over the Lyrik I suggested above as mine isn’t doing bike park duties.

With the mentioned requirements I’d go more towards the capable off road end as that’ll be fine pottering around with bags on over easy bridleways as well as the bike park stuff. An mtb at the other end with less capable geometry and parts could be horrific at a bike park or on steep tech.

Just to add my frame is Marino rather than Curtis due to cost. Really happy with what I’ve got - but I imagine the Curtis would be a bit lighter.

But if money was no object, surely I could afford a nice short-travel FS instead?

delete, wrong thread!

I’m riding a banshee paradox 3 now. Excellent frame, lls enough for more challenging stuff, but still nimble enough. Very light and a superbly damped ride on the chattery stuff. They’re certainly worth a look, but all the above are good. Modern hard tails are for the most part way more capable than those from a few years back

Yeti Arc 🤣

Some really nice suggestions.

I’m liking the SolarisMax idea in Ti (have two of these frames in steel) Switch9er Ti too…having demoed one.

Then I found this option. Like the idea of supporting a local business (aren’t all businesses local to someone?) and actually cheaper than importing from uk to Oz for me.

https://roostbike.com/product/roost-nero-ti-mtb-frame/

That Roost frame is still made in a factory in China and they’re air freighting them to Australia. They look very nice though 👌

The Curtis would be literally hand made and brazed in the UK - I think it would be more environmentally friendly to ship it rather than air freight it. Of course the steel has come from somewhere and doubt it’s the uk.

I was coming on here to suggest what I own - a Pipedream Moxie. It’s bloody brilliant at everything, but I’m not very XC and no bikepacking.
But that Roost looks really nice! 👌

That Roost frame is still made in a factory in China and they’re air freighting them to Australia.

Yes, i realise that. I broke my own rules with money being no object didn’t I?
There’s a few Australian custom frame builders that would knock up a similar set up… but double or triple the price.

My ‘British’ frames have pretty much been all around the world before I’ve touched them.

If we’re going for stuff we don’t have already, then this custom Prova…

It’s ok I guess 😍

Fairlight Holt would be mine, an absolutely beautiful looking bike and would handle more than I could ever throw at it. Wouldn't suit everyone's idea of multi purpose though.

Whichever was most expensive and easiest to sell, so I could get rid and replace it with a proper skills compensator full suss MTB

It’s ok I guess 😍

Second nicest HT at Bespoked 😉

Probably something from the Stanton closing down sale.

everyone will put forward what they own obviously.

Ha! Some of us can be objective about this.

I vote for a Production Privée Shan GT.

The entirely coincidental fact that I own one and it's awesome does not influence this post. At all.

everyone will put forward what they own obviously.

in my case very much obviously because what the OP suggests is very similar to my criteria for buying

My version is my hello Dave 😃

If it was money no object it would be the titanium version.

It's going bike packing this winter, it's fun on 50 miles in the peaks, it's fun on 50 miles on sus trans routes to Sherwood pines. It's super fun wiggling about on slippy steep enduro trails.

@tjagain

You taking your bahookie to bike parks and on jump lines?!

When the op says bike parks I’m not thinking Leeds urban bike park I’m thinking Revs / BPW etc

Clearly, it's the Starling Roost

-Can be used for bikepacking (accessory mount under the top tube)
- Can be used for jibbing (has the 27,5 wheel out back)
- Bike parks/dirt jumping - see the fella in their proimo videos doing the stuff I can't
- Trail riding - what I use mine for
- Shaving Mirror - 'cos it's all shiny

You taking your bahookie to bike parks and on jump lines?!

I haven't yet but its a more capable bike than the last one I took to glentress

Glentress isn't a bike park, it's a trail centre. I've got a Bird Zero 29. I think 130-140mm 29er is the closest you'll get to what you want.

I think 130-140mm 29er is the closest you’ll get

Seconded.

Something that’s light enough that you could credibly do something like a 12 or 24, or even just not hate an xc race, but also not just survive something like a day at an uplift.

Or, to put it another way, allowing for a change of tyres, it has to not make a misery of brighton big dog, bike park wales or bridleway bashing.

"Multi-use" for me wouldn't include Bike Parks or uplift days, and I wouldn't expect a Hardtail to be able to replace a 140mm+ full sus trail bike (especially not one with a motor!), so my multi use HT would be a bit more XC than most...

For me it would be a Curtis XC100 with a few revisions... Those being adjusted for a 120mm fork in place of a 100mm, 30.9/31.6 seat tube in place of 27.2, two sets of bottle cage bosses and stealth dropper routing... Probably build it with either a Fox 34SC or an Ohlins RXF34m.2, mechanical X01 Eagle (not a fan of AXS), Fox Transfer post, Hope XCR Pro X2 brakes (or maybe Trickstuff Piccola's if I could find a pair!), probably some Crossmax SLS's (Mavic wheels just ride sooooo nicely, but I'd keep my DT 240's as a spare set for when inevitably the Mavics break and I'm waiting for spares) etc...

In fact, I'm salivating just thinking about it! 🤔😂

Glentress isn’t a bike park, it’s a trail centre.

The difference is? I don't know

I think 130-140mm 29er

The bahookie is 120 mm - does the other 10 or 20 mm make much difference?

The difference is? I don’t know

Think of a Bike Park as an uplifted Trail Centre... Man made trails, with grades for all abilities, but you take the uplift to maximise the amount of time spent descending. As such, trails are typically wider and faster than most trail centres, and less suitable/enjoyable on a Hardtail IMO...

The bahookie is 120 mm – does the other 10 or 20 mm make much difference?

To people who count things only in numbers rather than quality, and don't understand just how badly a long forked hardtail geometry changes through the forks compression, then it can make all the difference!

To those of us who understand bicycle geometry and suspension performance a little better, then arguably anything over 120mm on a HT is a waste of time... But just as opinions are like arseholes, here everybody will have one, and there will be someone along in a minute to say how they won an XC race on a 160mm forked HT with Super Tacky tyres fitted too!

As per ‘recommend what you own’ logic, Stooge MK4. Other than jumping (which I can’t do very well anyway) for me it’s a damn near perfect all-rounder.

How about Hardtail Party’s favourite the Titanium RSD Middlechild. My XL is in the classifieds 😊

“ To those of us who understand bicycle geometry and suspension performance a little better, then arguably anything over 120mm on a HT is a waste of time… ”

I thought this was true, it seemed so logical. So when I replaced my old Cotic Soul (with 140mm forks) I designed a 120mm hardtail. Then I spotted that the then new Bird Zero AM could be modded to my chosen geometry with 130mm forks, so I got one of those instead.

I rode that at 130mm, then tried 140mm and 150mm. I liked how it behaved best at 150mm. When I switched to a 29” hardtail this year I went to a 160mm fork and I like it even more. You have to set up the fork right and you have to have the bars at the right height (most have them way too low).

FYI I’m the sort of person who gets on someone else’s bike and then has the horror of feeling everything that’s wrong with the set-up, notices tyre pressures being out by less than 10%, etc etc. And can endlessly geek out on geometry. It’s quite annoying. If I was quicker I’d make a great test rider.

Pleasing to hear most people’s multi-souse hardtail is basically a lighter version of what I’ve just ordered - a 130mm travel 29er with 65 degree head angle and “suitable” reach.

Money was very much an object with me, but if it wasn’t I’d be going to BTR and asking for a frame with similar geo to what I have coming, and for Burf to charge me what he thought was right rather than what he though he had to in order to cover costs and make a bit of pocket change. That way he might make enough to finally sort his CNC out.

Tjagain I'd describe GT as a trail centre, no uplift, mostly xc type trails, your bike would be fine/ideal. At a bike park I'd expect some form of uplift and the trails to be more DH/enduro and yes a longer travel full sus would be best for most folks but a longer travel hardtail can be a right giggle on those trails. These days if I'm riding with friends it's more likely to be enduro trails, off piste at GT, Golfie etc. I'm sure your bike is ideal for the riding you do but for that I'd want something a bit longer, lower and slacker so I survive and enjoy it. I've done 50+km xc rides on my bike and it's a bit much for those but the fun bits are even more fun and I don't mind being be a bit slower in between because it's the fun stuff that's most important to me.

Another here that thinks the effect of long forks on HT geometry is overstated. Although I think old skool steeper head angles made this rather more of an issue, its less so with more modern Hts with slacker HA's and longer wheelbases.

Whats more important if you're using a HT where most would use an FS is to get the best quality fork you can because it doesnt get to share is work with a rear shock.

I run my HT at 140mm with taller bars instead of 150mm, not because of geometry fear, but to keep it correct side of the lifetime warranty...

"To those of us who understand bicycle geometry and suspension performance a little better, then arguably anything over 120mm on a HT is a waste of time…"

Quite a ridiculous statement. I run my Meta HT at 160mm on 27.5 as that's what it was designed to run and that's what gives its 65 HA. I will confess not being a kinematics engineer but it also happens to be the travel that I quite like on a hardtail. I certainly use most of it regularly, being set up on the soft side.

I still beleive that suspension is marred by the physcological effect of the phantom 100mm.
People mentally discard the "1" - meaning a 130mm bike gets pigeonholed as half as gnarly as a 160mm, when its only 18.8% less travel

There's no competitive benefit to a big travel 27.5 hardtail - so its purely for whatever we each subjectively call fun. And if you like it, then its the right bike for you.

I run my Meta HT at 160mm on 27.5 as that’s what it was designed to run and that’s what gives its 65 HA.

But at bottom out, your 65 head angle is ~71, and your bars are 5 inches below where they are relative to the pedals, compared to at sag point.

But you're not riding along with your forks bottomed out.

But you’re not riding along with your forks bottomed out.

no but when it does occur its when you least want a road bike head angle and hyper agressive bar position. And you havent just arrived at that position magically, you have rotated forwards into it as you landed/hit an obstacle etc.

even at halfway between sag and bottom out, that meta HT will be at XC race bike head angle and body position.

“ even at halfway between sag and bottom out, that meta HT will be at XC race bike head angle and body position.”

Have you ever ridden a full-sus where the front and rear suspension always move in perfect harmony? I’m fairly certain no-one has ever put self-levelling suspension on a MTB.

Nosedive a landing on a DH bike and it turns from a 63 deg HA to a 71 deg HA. My 160mm hardtail goes from 64.8 deg (at sag) to a 70 deg head angle when fully bottomed out. And at that point the bars are 4” lower - so you make sure your bars are high enough when you set the bike up.

There’s nothing particularly logical about big forked hardtails but with big wheels and modern geometry they perform really well if absolute speed isn’t the goal. You can make all the theoretical arguments you like about how the geometry changes as the fork moves but the same is true on a full-sus, sometimes reduced by the rear suspension movement but sometimes increased by the rear suspension movement.

Jeepers. I appear to have caused an argument without me being at all argumentative

Have you ever ridden a full-sus where the front and rear suspension always move in perfect harmony? I’m fairly certain no-one has ever put self-levelling suspension on a MTB.

A very fair point.
And you could argue that in the worst possible scenario the big travel full suss is bottoming the fork and topping out the shock, giving even more forward rotation.

I can’t say I’ve ever checked but I would say that most of my usage of the far end of my suspension travel occurs on landings, and in compressions. I don’t have the skill, balls, or component budget to got full gas through a rock garden like a World Cup racer.

Those are the exact times I don’t want to have my front end steepening and lowering.

From my own experience, I have a 160/143 650b full suss, and a 130 29er hardtail. Despite the wheel size advantage, a slacker at sag head angle, and the slightly smaller amount of travel, it’s the hardtail which is getting hung up at the back, pitching me forwards, and generally being less stable or confidence inspiring to ride.
I know you will all say, hardtail, duh… and you’d be right. But if I had another 30 mil to the travel and put my static grip height the same, this problem is only going to worsen.

Just shows how good you are at it. 😉

no but when it does occur its when you least want a road bike head angle and hyper agressive bar position. And you havent just arrived at that position magically, you have rotated forwards into it as you landed/hit an obstacle etc.

Assuming you're a dead sailor on the bike, this will be the case, but who does that?

Theres a reason seat tubes with long droppers are popular and its to allow compensatory movement for exactly those scenarios. I guess we're at the point where skill and experience dictate how the equipment gets used.

My Vendetta is the loveliest hard tail I’ve ever owned, and also the most absolutely ace to ride. Mine is 27.5 with 2.6inch tyres, which makes it grippy as well as reasonably compliant for my aging back.

Before that, I had a Shan which was also class (and a BFe before that). But the Vendetta is clearly more shiny. I am a big fan of the 2.6inch tyres on a hard tail.

And that stuff about anything more than 120mm travel being no good in a HT is total rubbish imo. I can only think that the folks who spout that nonsence haven’t ridden the right bike. The biggest steepening head angle issues I’ve experienced were on full sussers. Steepening HA normally only becomes a problem (for me at least) when you bottom out the fork descending something mentally steep. In that scenario, the worst offenders in my riding experience have been FS, not HT.

My Vendetta is 150mm. My Shan was 160. By BFe was 150. If I needed a new HT I wouldn’t be looking at anything less than 150mm. A long fork on a nice HT with ace geometry is a thing of wonderment to ride. Just fantastic fun.

Here’s my Vendetta:

I've an adjustable travel (140-170mm) fork on my Stanton. 140mm is really the sweet spot for my trails. When I tried it at 160 it definitely wandered a little on climbing, and didn't turn as sharply.

Assuming you’re a dead sailor on the bike, this will be the case, but who does that?

Theres a reason seat tubes with long droppers are popular and its to allow compensatory movement for exactly those scenarios. I guess we’re at the point where skill and experience dictate how the equipment gets used.

And this!!!

A Vassago titanium. I have a steel frame of theirs, most lovely do it all frame I have ever owned by some margin.

Stanton Switch9er Ti, ...what a bike. Love mine.

Quite liking the Huhn Zero... and they do it in Ti too...

Stanton Switch9er Ti, …what a bike. Love mine.

Yeah, about that. Bad news, I afraid......

Not ridiculous money but definitely aspirational, I'd nominate the Pipedream Sirius

I've got a transition vanquish, I know it's discontinued but there's plenty out there. I run mine with a 2 degree slackset and 130mm pikes. Got a sub 1400gm wheelset for xc including racing, and a burlier wheel set for messing about. Best H/T I've ever had by miles.

generally being less stable or confidence inspiring to ride.

One persons less stable and confidence inspiring is another's fun and challenging to ride...

To nobble a canoe phrase:
"half the [s]paddle[/s] suspension, twice the [s]paddler[/s] rider"

😉

Quite liking the Huhn Zero [rear tyre clearance]… and they do it in Ti too…

FTFY

Mine would be along the lines of @ta11pau1 's Nordest. It's a thing of beauty

 just how badly a long forked hardtail geometry changes through the forks compression

Momentarily, on big hits. It's an often overstated phenomena. The front of every bike compresses as the bike reacts to rough terrain.

anything over 120mm on a HT is a waste of time…

For what? I mean a DH outside a park is arguably a waste of time, everything has it's place.

Another fan of a long forked HT here.
Does perfectly fine on my local trails as that's what i designed the frame to be good on.
Ride it on the same stuff as my long travel bikes and it's not a problem just a little slower on the really rough sections.

anything over 120mm on a HT is a waste of time…

It's really not...

As others have said when out actually riding the head angle change is no more pronounced than on a FS bike.

I can't recommend the frame on this thread though as it was a pretty cheap frame even as a custom build.
Money no object and I'd have got Curtis to build it.

In it's normal winter coat.
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Camera angle makes that look like a reverse mullet! 😄

Camera angle makes that look like a reverse mullet!

The front wheel isn't little it's far away. 😉

Better perspective for you.
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My 130/140 forked hardtail has a 425 seat tube combined with a 200mm dropper so in my mind it has at least 200mm rear travel.

It’s currently got 130mm forks on it and a 63.5 head angle and I love it. I’ve had a 160mm travel Norco Sasquatch in the past as well as over forked jump bikes and you just lean to ride them differently with longer forks.

A longer fork (on a frame designed for it) isn’t going to be bad at pedals or going uphill and bikes with longer forks (usually) mean the bars are higher which can help taller riders. Especially now forks are so much better at not blowing through all their travel when set up with a decent amount of sag (if that’s how you like it).

I think this fallacy about not going over 120/130 on a hardtail is something that’s been disproved by modern geometry and better forks. In the same way that the myth about slack head angles ruining climbing has been disproved. People just need to adjust/completely change their technique for modern bikes.

I think this fallacy about not going over 120/130 on a hardtail is something that’s been disproved by modern geometry and better forks

I've got 170mm X-Fusions on my 26" Shan without particularly advanced geometry and it rides fine

I like the look at the Binary Maniak designed by Hardtail Party, looks super versatile 😀

Isn't the front end geometry change mostly a red herring?

Head angle steepening assumes a fixed front wheel with the fork crown moving down towards the wheel?

Would suspect that most dynamic (ie riding along) movement works in the opposite direction with the fork crown remaining relatively stable with the wheel moving up towards it as it hits lumps? In which case the perceived head angle doesn't change much from the rider's perspective as their relationship to the ground isn't really changing much...

Either way, my most truly versatile bike is a 140mm forked hardtail. Sonder Transmitter. Slack-ish. Not really long or low but not short and high either. I run it as a 27.5+ all-rounder but it can equally be used as a skinny tyred comfy all-dayer XC bike or built tougher as a pretty capable enduro hardtail. Never really notice any issues with fork dive - in practice it feels fairly similar to my RocketMAX to ride in terms of stability (excepting the lack of rear bounce obivously) but I'm careful to match control points and sizing, etc. across my different bikes as much as I can.

Some more ponderings on big forked hardtails with modern geometry and good forks. On my Moxie I’m running 160mm Lyriks with about 25% sag. The static head angle is 63.2 deg. At sag it’s 64.8 deg. If I put all my weight on the bars, feet hanging in mid-air, it squishes down to 70mm of travel used (44%). That puts the head angle with full weight on the bars at 66.2 deg - so that’s the absolute worse case non-dynamic scenario.

Now obviously when we’re smashing into things and particularly when hucking drops we put a lot more force than our static weight into the bike, hence being able to use the rest of the travel - although I don’t often get into the last 15mm or so. But those peak loads are only momentary so the bike returns from them rapidly. My other bike is a Levo which has the same fork and similar sagged geometry (65 deg static HA so a bit slacker at sag, sagged BB height within a few mm) - reach is about 25mm shorter but chainstay is about 25mm longer so the wheelbase is about the same. It’s bizarrely easy to swap between them (something I normally struggle with between different bikes), considering the Levo has 157mm rear travel than the Moxie! The only thing I really notice is the timing for jumps, drops, pumping, corners changing because it takes longer to preload the full-sus.

This is my first 29” hardtail (had a 27.5” 150mm before and a 26” 140mm before that). This is also my first I’ve had as a singlespeed - I may put gears on it at some point but I’m enjoying the simplicity and flow so much right now. I imagine the lack of weight on the rear wheel (no cassette or mech) helps it skip through the rough better.

There’s something really nice about how such a big fork with a good damper sits in its travel and gives you not just front suspension for your hands but also some suspension for your feet. Bear in mind that the bottom bracket is about two thirds of the way along the bike, so your feet have about a third of the suspension travel of the fork - when you huck to flat the front compresses with the fork whilst the BB compresses at about a third the rate of the fork. That 50mm+ of BB travel is v useful.

On a rigid bike when the front hits a bump your handlebars come up (and your feet by a third of that) then the rear wheel hits it and on a rigid bike your feet get kicked upwards by two thirds of the rear wheel’s vertical movement. And obviously when you huck to flat a rigid bike only has the give in the tyres (and a tiny bit of other stuff flexing).

But when there’s a suspension fork the fork swallows a lot of that front wheel bump, and then when the rear wheel hits the whole bike can pivot about the BB, with the rear wheel moving up and the fork compressing, like single pivot where the chainstay length is the swing arm and the front centre the linkage. It doesn’t feel like a full-sus but it does make a difference.