[Closed] Mass suicide attempt by commuter cyclists.

I think we all agree that ideally the cyclists wouldn't be doing this. But what is your solution to avoiding it?
I can detect people that are glad these naughty cyclists have got their come-uppance for slowing down the journeys of those poor motorists to the back of the next traffic jam. I wonder if they'd be so willing to express their joy if the guy had been killed or seriously injured.
Clearly the truck could have stayed further to the right. He KNEW there were cyclists going up his inside - he was trying to position to stop them but in the process clipped one of them.
The real question is though what can you realistically do to stop this type of incident happening? People are always going to do things wrong. Is your glee at someone getting hit by a ****ing truck going to stop people doing silly things?

Bus @ 1:00 surely jumped a red light, no?

What can you say?! All the cyclists were in a left hand turn lane. "Everyone does it, it's London" is a stupid argument. Where is the sense of self-preservation (man in Lycra vs big heavy metal thing)? Sat here shaking my head at the cyclists.

But what is your solution to avoiding it?

Get in the correct lane. Note - May require waiting behind another road user.

Get in the correct lane. Note - May require waiting behind another road user.

Can you have a look at the video again and tell us what point in the video the cyclists should have merged with the stationary line of traffic?

Not having a go, genuinely interested.

The real question is though what can you realistically do to stop this type of incident happening?

You can expect people to not be stupid. If they carry on being stupid, Darwin will take over.

You can't engineer out every opportunity for stupidity

Get in the correct lane. Note - May require waiting behind another road user.

+1

If they'd found some space to slot into further back in the queue it'd have cost them seconds in their ride, maybe a minute or two. I'd imagine the sort of person who thinks they should gamble with a lorry to save a few seconds is the sort of person who stands by the doors on a commuter train, pressing the "open door" button before the train has stopped.

Solution to avoid? Don't horse up the inside of traffic, if you're gonna be Billy big baws, overtake on the outside.

I've ridden that road countless times.

Merge at your leisure, really. Traffic is usually slow enough in the run up to the lights that you can move in comfortably. You may be two or three back from the lights, but surely that's better than being under a truck?

Unless, of course you just HAVE to go faster than everyone else!

Can you have a look at the video again and tell us what point in the video the cyclists should have merged with the stationary line of traffic?

If they didn't undertake in the left lane they wouldn't need to merge in. If they were already at the front when the lights went red they should have moved out to dominate road position to prevent themselves being squeezed at the junction

... slowing down the journeys of those poor motorists to the back of the next traffic jam

not read this thread, but the cyclists are mental on a few levels, who the hell goes up the side of an artic then actually waits at the left hand side of it, nuts. Next point, if you do that, make sure you are infront of it, and make eye contact with the driver. Next point if you are going to do that, make sure you are off like a whippet at the lights and well ahead clear of the road traffic, don't bumble about like you own the road. and lastly if you are going to break the rules of the road, at least know you are breaking there, it was left turn only ffs. Last point, it's london, is no excuse what so ever! 😆 .

lunacy on the cyclists parts, with a helath dose of self entitlement. Crazy, I don't follow the rules of the road myself, but least i'm aware of my surroundings and place my safety as the number 1 priority(the only rule I follow tbh).

On the drivers point, tbh difficult to tell if he's actually thought all the cyclist had past or just said **** it. i'll give him the benefit of the doubt there, I doubt very much he is out to spend time in jail for mowing down people.

I think we all agree that ideally the cyclists wouldn't be doing this. But what is your solution to avoiding it?
I can detect people that are glad these naughty cyclists have got their come-uppance for slowing down the journeys of those poor motorists to the back of the next traffic jam. I wonder if they'd be so willing to express their joy if the guy had been killed or seriously injured.
Clearly the truck could have stayed further to the right. He KNEW there were cyclists going up his inside - he was trying to position to stop them but in the process clipped one of them.
The real question is though what can you realistically do to stop this type of incident happening? People are always going to do things wrong. Is your glee at someone getting hit by a **** truck going to stop people doing silly things?

I think you are mis-interpreting
I'm glad in some ways that this guy potentially learned a lesson without serious injury or dying.... and perhaps others might also see this and avoid injury or death to themselves or others.

I don't think GLEE is correct.... it's the sort of thing I'd like to happen to my kid in terms of realising how dangerous something actually is without a serious injury or death...

The solution is obvious... its what we say to drivers all the time.
"Its not worth an accident to be home 5 minutes earlier"

The problem is the sense of entitlement... had a car deliberately gone in the left hand left only lane and tried to pull in front of the HGV and failed I don't think there would be any discussion.

I am pretty confident my car can out accelerate any HGV ... "so just because I can" should I then use the left lane habitually and save myself 5 minutes?

Clearly the truck could have stayed further to the right. He KNEW there were cyclists going up his inside - he was trying to position to stop them but in the process clipped one of them.

How could he know.... and if he did know what is it you want him to do... drive into oncoming traffic on the wrong side of the road?

The cyclist started off in the wrong and it was completely in their power to turn left (as they should have) and not have an accident instead of [b]guessing [/b]that the driver has seen them and can take evasive action.

Why didn't the cyclist take evasive action instead... after all the driver is not going to be hurt by a bike hitting his HGV...

You can expect people to not be stupid. If they carry on being stupid, Darwin will take over.

You can't engineer out every opportunity for stupidity

How could he know.... and if he did know what is it you want him to do... drive into oncoming traffic on the wrong side of the road?

philjunior - Member
How could he know.... and if he did know what is it you want him to do... drive into oncoming traffic on the wrong side of the road?

The cyclist that had come up his inside and ended up in front of him?
If he couldn't move out, he could slow down and stop. Do you just plough into someone if they pull out in front of you? Is it that hard to accept that you should do what you can to avoid hitting people with a truck, even if they are "wrong"?

I'm not sure either party comes out of that video with any credit:

Cyclist has come up on the inside of the lorry in a turn-left only lane and then assumed he can move across - arguably breaking law/highway code, unquestionably unwise and certainly putting himself in danger.

Lorry drive has already seen more than one cyclist appear in front of him from the left hand side, and has taken no action to allow for the fact that there may be more coming from a known blind-spot on his vehicle - hardly qualifies as good driving and whether or not he may be theoretically "in the right" he would have contributed to a potential death scenario.

Both of them need to have a long hard think.

Good track-standing by the guy in Mapei kit 😀

Cheers, Rich

2 things that are apparent - on a cycling forum, and the quorum believe the cyclists to be mainly at fault tells a story, and once the guy who had the escape calmed down a bit, he says to just leave it. Once the adrenaline goes, he knew he was wrong, and a ****in lucky boy.

I'm not sure either party comes out of that video with any credit:

Can you have a look at the video again and tell us what point in the video the cyclists should have merged with the stationary line of traffic?

Not having a go, genuinely interested.

Behind the black taxi at 18 seconds? Granted you would have to know the junction and know there was no ASL. Or the other way of looking at it - you should never go beyond the black taxi at 18 seconds unless you know the junction and know there is somewhere to go if you continue filtering beyond your line of sight.

Yeah, but did he get the KOM on the [i]"Up the left hand lane past the lights - SPRINT"[/i] segment? That's what I want to know.

The level of bellendery I see every day on my London commute beggars belief. This doesn't surprise me at all.

Over time I have built up a selection of alternate routes home that mostly avoids main roads and cycle arteries.

Really can't be arsed to comment on the obvious, thought some of you (and possibly that cyclist) might like to read about what actually happens when it all goes wrong:

Having just returned back to active duty with
the Cycle Response Unit (CRU) after one year
away, my first week back was to be a gentle
one. The morning of day one was spent preparing my
CRU Paramedic kit (always unnerving as you really
have to slim your equipment down to the bare minimum
after having had the space of an ambulance vehicle to
stow all the equipment you could ever need) and the rest
of the week I was to be lead instructor on a EMS Cyclist
course.

On the morning of the final day of our course, we
gathered our students together and proposed that, prior
to their assessments later in the day, they decide if they
wanted a final practice on the cone course or road
riding, whichever was their weaker area. I had one
student opt for the road ride, so whilst the rest went to
revisit the cones with my co-instructor and an assistant,
I took one student out for an observed road ride.

It was overcast with sunny spells, a warm springtime
morning during which visibility was good and traffic
density was moderate (for the City of London). My
student was a Team Leader (my superior at other times)
and we had a good ride during which we took a few
stops to observe and reflect upon various traffic issues;
particularly, filtering through stationary traffic with the
intent of making a left turn (UK roads, so think right
turn in USA and Europe). We discussed the pros and
cons of overtaking or using the cycle lane on the
approach, the cycle box at the junction, plus safe lines
to use and where hazards may arise. This is a subject I’d
highlighted with some concern during a classroom
presentation earlier in the course as it is the most
common cause of cyclist fatality in London.

As we were returning to base, a pedestrian standing at a
bus stop hailed me and informed me that a cyclist was
under a lorry further along the road (you seem to get a vibe
about jobs and this one was “bad”). I called to my student,
informed him of a possible running call, and instructed him
to follow me. Blue lights went on (we are currently
working on a cyclists blue light protocol and course here in
London) and big ring was engaged. I had traffic on my
side backing up (a confirmation of “bad”) so took to the
other side of the road to make progress. It
was initially empty but after a short
distance I encountered an oncoming van.
I made firm eye contact with the driver
and by using hand signals, instructed him
to stop, allowing me and my student a safe
passage past. After a brief sprint we came
to a traffic light controlled crossroads
where a four wheel steer cement mixing
lorry was stationary mid-left turn (UK
roads) and at the back wheels, a cyclist’s
supine torso was protruding out.

The London Fire Brigade (LFB) were
already on scene, but since UK Fire &
Rescue service are not EMT or Paramedic trained, my
student and I found ourselves as first EMS on scene. Our
first impression was of an open pelvis fracture and
probable thoracic trauma with head injury (no helmet
worn). The patient was pulseless, so we got to work on the
airway whilst our collegues in the LFB performed chest
compressions. Within a minute, a solo LAS Rapid
Response Paramedic Unit (car) arrived to back us up and it
was manned that day by the familiar face of a Team Leader
and CRU member of staff who had just recently finished a
one year secondment to the CRU. Our patient was in a
workable cardiac rhythm (PEA), so all possible traumatic
causes were reversed as far as our skill levels allow;
airway protection was initially impossible due to trismus
(jaw locked shut), but intubation was achieved after it
subsided; we were now backed up by plenty of other LAS
staff, drug therapy commenced and we looked at
extrication. The initial LFB report was that the patient’s
legs were entwined with the axle and that the vehicle
would have to be raised. This would mean all our
rescusitation efforts would have to cease as the area would
not be safe to work in until the vehicle was stabilised with
blocks and raised, but after cutting up the cyclist’s bicycle
and removing it from underneath the vehicle, we were able
to extricate and immobilise the patient and remove them to
an ambulance for conveying to hospital.

In London we have one Helicopter Emergency Medical
Service staffed by a BASICS doctor and a Paramedic. As
we gave our report on arrival we were informed it was on
another call, so a BASICS doctor was activated froma central London hospital, arriving by car
just in time to convey with the patient to
the nearest multi-trauma unit.

A police traffic officer who attended the
scene of the fatality commented on the
hazard of frontal four wheel steer vehicles’ ability to “suck
cyclists in” under their turning wheels once contact has
been made.

Myself and my student then returned to base, debriefed and
completed paperwork over a cup of tea and
then got back to the course assessments (he
passed!).

The job reaffirmed to me how recognisable
the CRU are now in London. It also
reminded me how much closer you are to
members of the public when you are on a
bicycle, and that you are far more easy to
wave down for aid — I doubt a motorised
vehicle would have seen the pedestrian who
waved me to a halt. It showed how
adaptable and flexible we can be, and how
quickly and easily we can respond, offering
vital pre-hospital care to those in need to a
standard that equals or exceeds that available by a
motorised vehicle.

I was glad to have been with a clinical lead (Team Leader)
at the time of the incident and happy to see another
familiar CRU face arrive (by car this time) so promptly
and give so much to our efforts as did all the emergency
services who attended. This incident highlighted that as
EMSCIs, we should always be prepared to deal with the
worst at the most unlikely of times, and the importance of
carrying full operational kit at all times.

Unfortunately, it also showed how vulnerable cyclists can
be when they don’t act or get treated as legitimate road
users, so take care, it is a jungle out there. Ride safe, and
be prepared.

Hopefully a sobering account.

In summary: don't be a dick.

I think the HGV accelerated a lot quicker than I would normally expect. Possibly everyone expected to be half way down the road before he'd gotten above 10 mph. Certainly the cyclist who got hit looked like he thought he'd made a breakaway before he was hit from behind.

The cyclist that had come up his inside and ended up in front of him?
If he couldn't move out, he could slow down and stop.

[quote="seosamh77"]in fairness to the driver, as soon as contact is made he's turned to the right and stopped. So you need to give him the benefit of the doubt that he thought all cyclists had passed, imo.

Do you just plough into someone if they pull out in front of you?

Perhaps it depends on the alternatives.... however the cyclist that got hit wasn't in front...the driver made a reasonable assumption that a cyclist who is already in the wrong is not stupid enough to try and push a HGV out of the way or relay on the driver seeing them.

Is it that hard to accept that you should do what you can to avoid hitting people with a truck, even if they are "wrong"?

It's not about who was right vs wrong.... driving a HGV ploughing into a car can be fatal.... even supposing he knew the cyclist was there (which I don't believe was the case from the drivers obvious shock) the cyclist [u]could [/u]have just turned left or just gone on the pavement... slamming on air-brakes would have had a very very high probability of seriously injuring anyone behind the HGV...

If I was driving a HGV I'd make a call that the cyclist can avoid the collision but the cars/cyclists on the other side or behind can't. (This is not even taking into account the cyclist was in the wrong )

In this case I very much doubt the driver knew he was there and risking an accident because of what you can't see vs what you can see is a no brainer.

STATO - Member

It doesnt encourage you, its available for you. If you want to go left you can use it, if you want to go straight move across into the correct lane.

So many people are using it wrongly that I think it asks reasonable questions about the road design. This isn't one road warrior, it's a whole lot of normal everyday cyclists all doing the same, wrong thing

Lorry drive has already seen more than one cyclist appear in front of him from the left hand side, and has taken no action to allow for the fact that there may be more coming from a known blind-spot on his vehicle - hardly qualifies as good driving and whether or not he may be theoretically "in the right" he would have contributed to a potential death scenario.

Both of them need to have a long hard think.

If you start from this assumption there is no point ever at which the driver (not limited to this video) can ever assume noone is going to be passing on the inside

You have to assume that given all the options open to the cyclist to not have an accident and the relative damage they receive vs a HGV that they are not going to try and force a HGV off the road...

It seems to me the cyclist expected the HGV to make room... and hadn't even considered the HGV may have nowhere to go or has even seen him.

That's not top say the driver didn't learn something but that's a bit like saying a train driver has to expect someone to throw themselves under their train at every station.

So many people are using it wrongly that I think it asks reasonable questions about the road design. This isn't one road warrior, it's a whole lot of normal everyday cyclists all doing the same, wrong thing

Shall we also,
Change the speed limit
Make red lights optional
Allow the use of phones for car drivers and cyclists
Etc

?

After all, if lots of people are doing it already, it must be OK.....

So many people are using it wrongly that I think it asks reasonable questions about the road design. This isn't one road warrior, it's a whole lot of normal everyday cyclists all doing the same, wrong thing

But that's not the point. There's a massive arrow saying "OI, TURN LEFT HERE" and whether they WISH it was something else is besides the point, people don't get to make up road rules to suit themselves. It's like a mate of mine who got done for speeding at 2am on a mostly empty motorway, he felt aggrieved because he wasn't causing any danger (true) and thought the usual rules should not apply (false).

If people want to have a bike line or advanced stop added, there's a mechanism to do that, you can't just make it up as you go along and expect other road users to know and respect that.

I've already said that the junction is a shit-fest but whenever I've driven or ridden there I'm VERY aware of this and behave accordingly. At no point would I put the blinders on and get my head down and go for it.

So many people are using it wrongly that I think it asks reasonable questions about the road design. This isn't one road warrior, it's a whole lot of normal everyday cyclists all doing the same, wrong thing

Indeed. I get the impression that normally cyclists congregate there and then either sprint to get ahead of the traffic or filter in with the cars. Having an HGV there only leaves the option to sprint ahead or wait to filter in behind which is what seems to be happening.

The guy who got hit seemed to think he'd done enough to be visible to the HGV. He was ahead but probably not visible.

The HGV seemed to accelerate a lot as it went through the pinch point. You can see the relative speeds change dramatically just before the collision.

The driver is not completely innocent but the main problem is the junction design which is almost inviting this kind of thing.

Lorry drive has already seen more than one cyclist appear in front of him from the left hand side, and has taken no action to allow for the fact that there may be more coming from a known blind-spot on his vehicle - hardly qualifies as good driving and whether or not he may be theoretically "in the right" he would have contributed to a potential death scenario.
Both of them need to have a long hard think.

Lorry saw many go infront of him, and saw some on his inside further back (the camera bike). He was moving slowly to the curb, trying to accelerate and change gears. He had a mirror that might have let him see the cyclist but they are tiny, only really there for when a driver is stationary, thats why he saw the cyclist when he hit him, he appeared in that mirror. (one out the front)

Like this one.
[img] [/img]

I think the HGV accelerated a lot quicker than I would normally expect. Possibly everyone expected to be half way down the road before he'd gotten above 10 mph. Certainly the cyclist who got hit looked like he thought he'd made a breakaway before he was hit from behind.

if there's one or two cyclists at the junction then playing the odds and expecting to get away sharpish is understandable, still not smart mind, but understandable. But as soon as there's half a dozen people of mixed ability at the stop line then getting away cleanly and quickly is just a lottery, I don't think you can rely on it.

My sympathies in this instance are with the truck driver, cyclists should have either been considerably in front of the truck and visible to the driver or tucked in the row of traffic behind. The only person that seemed to see there was a problem in the making was the female cyclist that appears to ease up to let the truck get away.

If you think they deserve therefore to die, which is what the comments regarding Darwin are saying, you are a bit of a ****, aren't you?

I didn't say he deserved to die at all.

No need to get personal.

Shall we also,
Change the speed limit
Make red lights optional
Allow the use of phones for car drivers and cyclists
Etc

?

After all, if lots of people are doing it already, it must be OK.....

but the main problem is the junction design which is almost inviting this kind of thing.

It's not. It's a left only lane. The problem is the cyclists ignoring that in a rush to get ahead.

It's not. It's a left only lane. The problem is the cyclists ignoring that in a rush to get ahead.

Cyclists generally ride on the left. It's where you naturally get drawn. Watching the video I wouldn't have noticed the arrow until I was well past the beginning of the line of cars.

Given they almost certainly do the same route every day, ignorance is no defence.

Cyclists generally ride on the left. It's where you naturally get drawn. Watching the video I wouldn't have noticed the arrow until I was well past the beginning of the line of cars.

And as above, they will all go that way every day and will be on the bike to avoid traffic, so wont join it.

Cyclists generally ride on the left. It's where you naturally get drawn. Watching the video I wouldn't have noticed the arrow until I was well past the beginning of the line of cars.

Whilst I know not everyone drives, anyone who DOES drive usually knows that empty-lane on a busy road means something is wrong (roadworks, compulsory turn etc).

Given they almost certainly do the same route every day, ignorance is no defence.

They do the same route every day and presumably do the same thing every day. Everyone's gotten so used to it (including drivers) that's it's just become the accepted way of doing it. It's only when someone who doesn't know the junction comes along that things get messy.

The fact that people's nature has taken over suggests that the design is completely wrong.

If you were driving would you try and jump a truck into a narrowing space, or would you slow and join the queue before the lights? or would you just turn left.

And as above, they will all go that way every day and will be on the bike to avoid traffic, so wont join it.

Whilst I know not everyone drives, anyone who DOES drive usually knows that empty-lane on a busy road means something is wrong (roadworks, compulsory turn etc).

Are you guys saying you never filter? If you're going to wait in line with cars then why even bother cycling, why not just drive?

That left lane doesn't look like a full width lane to me anyway. Wouldn't a better solution be have a proper left filter lane with plenty of markings leading up to it and a single lane going straight ahead?

CaptainFlashheart - Member
Given they almost certainly do the same route every day, ignorance is no defence.

Indeed. I get the impression that normally cyclists congregate there and then either sprint to get ahead of the traffic or filter in with the cars. Having an HGV there only leaves the option to sprint ahead or wait to filter in behind which is what seems to be happening.

You are missing the option TURN LEFT ....

If I'd ended up in this position in a car that is almost certainly what I'd do. At the front on a bike perhaps not... 10 people back on a bike GET OFF and stand on the pavement..

Yes it's inconvenient... yes I'll get home 5 mins later... BUT my chance of getting home at all is MUCH BETTER

what would you do,

email TfL & the Mayor and inform them of your concerns and attach the video, requesting a review of the junction / lanes / road lay out - that's the most constructive thing i can think of - but i'm not local to London, so over to you.

Looking at the video again there's no right turn on that road. So you have two lanes going into one within meters of the junction and a left filter lane which doesn't look big enough to fit a car in.

That is a ridiculous set up.