[Closed] Mandatory Full Face helmets in enduro for 2015

weeksy - Member
At the likes of Hamsterley UKGE, where the stages are a long way from being wild
MAybe for you... maybe not for the newbies to the sport....

In which case I'd have to question why newbies think the UK national series is a good place to start?

hels - Member
Once again, this is not a BC decision.

"Its not "a Steve Parr wanting it to be official thing, so lobbying British Cycling for it" its going to be a BC rule and I'm just giving our Customers a heads up before it becomes official."

Sounds like BC to me.

I've read with interest some of the replies, especially the 1's of the people hiding behind forum names.
Butterbean, come on give me your full insight into why I'm "pretty obtuse"?
Mike Smith, still comes on here and slates UKGE, last round he raced was Kielder 2011.
There is so much going on behind the scenes with Enduro, BC, UCi, rules, tiered structure, National champs, adoption of format etc.......
The UK is way behind Europe with its Enduro structure, about 6 years I think, things will evolve as the UKGE series has, amazing timing for past 2 years, bigger sponsors, prize money, the list goes on.
British Cycling are extremely concerned about Enduro and were its headed, here is the scenario for you -
BC coordinator now has 35 events to sanction for endure in 2014, of which 32 rounds he knows nothing about and 5+ organisers he has never worked with.
What would you do?
Myself, Charlie and BC have to make decisions on information gleaned over 4 years of organising UKGE, we will make mistakes and rightly stand against a wall to be shot at, but the Full face rule is definitely not a mistake.
We await full clarification on testing as to which 1's are good to go.
I do like the idea of "Areas on transition were they could be removed" 🙂

The UK is way behind Europe with its Enduro structure, about 6 years I think, things will evolve as the UKGE series has, amazing timing for past 2 years, bigger sponsors, prize money, the list goes on.

Totally agree Steve. The global development of the discipline has driven more capable bikes that are faster and able to hit more dangerous terrain at greater speed than before, so to skimp on protective gear in the face of higher speeds and greater risks seems reckless at best. Factor in the tragic events of late and insurers/landowners getting scared as a result, and it would be all too easy for the UK's development to stall.

Additionally, if British riders are to develop and make an impact on the world circuit, they need to be coming through the ranks with similar setups - that means tracks, kit and everything else, or else they have another set of hurdles when they step up to European/World events.

That's exactly my way of thinking too!

Part of the problem is that BC are very hazy in their regs

They give a minimum standard for helmets, that I think every helmet sold in the UK has to meet anyway
They say a ff is required for DH but don't give any minimum cert as they don't want to imply that any test garuantees the effectiveness of that protection , I'm guessing that's covering their arse legally

The UCI DH regs seem to say the same thing, but their website really is obtuse 😉

The only DH cert at the moment is astm f1592 and that doesn't require a chin guard but will test it if present.

Mike Smith, still comes on here and slates UKGE, last round he raced was Kielder 2011.

Perhaps there are some crossed comms - I heard from a very good source that BC will not be regulating Enduro as of 2015. If that is true, I fail to see how they can rule on helmet use.

I guess we wait for the minutes of the BC MTB Commission meeting to be published.

I'm more interested in why innerleithen mountain bike racing are pulling out of events next year? Money, hassle at events, lack of enthusiasm. Where will this leave Enduro racing in that area and what about the Scottish Enduro series next year? No fuss could step in but with them being based up in FW this years organisation worked really well with IMBR taking the southern events and NF doing the north.

(Apart from that mega crabbit IMBR commisaire who was just dying for a chance to DQ someone)

Factor in the tragic events of late and insurers/landowners getting scared as a result, and it would be all too easy for the UK's development to stall.

are spectators going to have mandated safety equipment as well?

Where will this leave Enduro racing in that area and what about the Scottish Enduro series next year?

TweedLove crew have some plans for events around the valley in 2015 - should be some news soon. (In addition to EWS.) Neil

All I want to know is does mean I can demand a refund for my ixs RS enduro helmet as now it is obviously not enduro? Despite being enduro green.

Boardinbob

I am sure there will be plenty of people keen to continue running great Enduros in the valley - as Neil says above.

It is not really for me to say what will happen with SES, although as it has been such a huge success I can't see why it wouldn't continue.

Maybe all the Scottish Enduro organisers should get around a table and bang something out ?

I for one hope the SES continues next year since my 1st one is the last of the season next month and really want to do the whole lot next year.

Hels

Now there's an idea. TweedLove folk are up for it.
Anyone else?

jam bo - Member

are spectators going to have mandated safety equipment as well?

I saw a commissaire telling a rider off for pushing along a fire road with no helmet on. Felt like asking where his helmet was, since they were both partaking of the extreme activity of fireroad walking 😆

The UK scene at the moment has jumped on the bandwagon and small organisers are putting on Enduros where they have no business holding that type of race

All hail the god of pigeon holing, I hope you go to every event to certify the terrain they are using appropriate for the label they're applying? 🙄

What about World Cup DH courses being ridden on 'enduro' bikes? Presumably they too have "no business" conducting that sort of race.

I'm still struggling with Enduro, so here's what it sounds like:-

It's downhill for Vets & Masters, with walking in between runs, where the winner is the helmet manufacturers?

What about World Cup DH courses being ridden on 'enduro' bikes? Presumably they too have "no business" conducting that sort of race.

Exactly....and i think you'll find thats why Pietermaritzburg has been dropped for 2015, most of the DH riders interviewed this year are looking forward to getting back to steep and technical tracks next season.

Just to clarify...IMTBR's future is still undecided, but there will defiantly be a SES in 2015...

The UK scene at the moment has jumped on the bandwagon and small organisers are putting on Enduros where they have no business holding that type of race

Its not always about the venue its what you do with it. In the south east QECP is the only venue/organisers that run races not saying we could hold a EWS round but what about a grassroots race? Something people can try before stepping up to the UKGE then the EWS.

Here what enduro-mtb thought:
http://enduro-mtb.com/en/race-report-grass-roots-racing-queen-elizabeth-country-park/

We have a great DH scene at that level with 17 races this year including 3 series.

I wish someone else would run Enduro's in the south east so I could some, again it would be at a grassroots level.

Maybe all the Scottish Enduro organisers should get around a table and bang something out ?

😯

Think I'm sorted whatever happens*...[img] [/img]

*as long as the chin strap doesn't have to fasten

The UK scene at the moment has jumped on the bandwagon and small organisers are putting on Enduros where they have no business holding that type of race

Parr - Member

The UK is way behind Europe with its Enduro structure

This comment got me to thinking about what's really important- yes we're in a different place, but is it behind, for anyone but the pros? Or is it just different? Totally massive essay btw, I wrote it at work.

The joy of UK enduro is the way it's grown from the bottom up- we didn't just import a european format, it's inspired by what's gone before but adapted for the UK and shaped by our venues and our riders and our organisers. Quite a lot of folks in this thread have said "In Italy they..." and honestly, I don't give a **** what they do in Italy. Not that we can't still learn from elsewhere, but we should never do anything because "that's how they do it" or "they're ahead of us, we've got to catch up".

Meanwhile, Enrico Guala comes to Scotland and says "this participation is what we're missing in Italy- how do we take this home?". If we learn one thing from the founder of superenduro, let's learn that, and not sacrifice the thing we have which he envies.

I appreciate that from an industry point of view, the ideal sport is the one you watch on telly and read about in magazines, that pays salaries and creates sales and rockstars. But from [i]our[/i] point of view, the ideal sport is the one we actually do.

The reason enduro took off isn't that we wanted to emulate anyone else or do what they were doing on the continent; we weren't out to be Jerome Clementz. We didn't really know what the hell an enduro was til we did it! I can only assume the organisers were shitting themselves. And it didn't take off because it was the latest cool thing in the media either, they were trailing far behind.

It took off because people tried it and loved it, and raved to their mates about it, and people kept putting them on. Where it changed direction, it was because that was where it wanted to go, not because that was where it had to. A natural thing, driven by the enthusiasm of riders and inspired organisers. The cliche that "it's just like riding with your mates" is what defines it, and imo [i]anything[/i] that takes us away from that is bad for the sport.

Ironically enduro is in a place that downhill would love to be, with great participation and buzz, new events, sold out races. Steve commented that a problem BC faces is too many new events! A problem DH and XC would [i]love[/i]. And yet enduro seems to be moving towards where downhill has ended up, with elitism and barriers to entry and a big head on a skinny body. It's at risk of becoming "not for us" to most people just as downhill has. And I don't just mean expense (though that's a concern). As soon as the image of enduro becomes pros, impossible courses, special bikes and full face helmets it becomes "not what we do", something you read about other people doing.

Some folks in this thread are all about telling us what enduro shouldn't be. Your venue's too flat, your tracks aren't radsick enough, you're doing it wrong. Thou shalt not. UK enduro's been a fresh start of we shall in an otherwise pretty moribund scene- it'd never have happened if the shall nots had been in charge.

That "too easy" "too flat" "not proper" local enduro you sneer at is giving people great days on their bikes, getting people together, getting people racing who don't race... It's not superenduro, but why on earth should it be? Would the people racing be happier if it was? More likely, they'd not be racing at all. Would the sport be better off for that?

UK enduro's not downhill, it's not superenduro and it's not formula one, we should nurture what it is- inclusive, homegrown, representative and adaptable, and can still knock the socks off the world's best and have a double world champion along the way. If the top end's to thrive it has to be as part of a thriving sport, not at the expense of the "lesser" events which it owes its entire existence to. EWS recognises the variety of world enduro; why should UK enduro do less? If "progression" is desirable, it'll come.

If we start accepting ideas like "enduro has to be super hard", "enduro is something you do in a full face", then we're back to square one. Why on earth would we limit it to be less than it's already proven it can be? Why would you make your contribution telling people what they can't do? Why would we risk a single thing that we already have, in order to "catch up" with an international scene that 99 out of 100 enduro riders will never have any contact with other than in a magazine, and which the 1/100 can already be part of?

Anyway. That's what I think. The strength of UK enduro is the big batallions, not the best shots.

"I have a dream" 🙂

...A song to sing

Northwind +1

People are organising grass roots events here in Tassie now, it's a good thing.

Well said northwind.

Exactly....and i think you'll find thats why Pietermaritzburg has been dropped for 2015,

+1 Northwind... horses for courses.

Yup, +1 Northwind

Northwind:

i've searched the entire internet and haven't found a 'nailed it' jpeg that adequately expresses just how completely spot-on your post is.

someone should print off your essay, and staple-gun it to the desk at the next BC meeting.

i've searched the entire internet and haven't found a 'nailed it' jpeg that adequately expresses just how completely spot-on your post is.

I'll +1 that, superb post that captures things more eloquently than I could have ever managed!

[i]I appreciate that from an industry point of view, the ideal sport is the one you watch on telly and read about in magazines, that pays salaries and creates sales and rockstars. But from our point of view, the ideal sport is the one we actually do.[/i]

That's not the impression I got from speaking to people in the industry.

We interviewed various racers and industry types in Finale after the EWS, here's their thoughts...

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/state-of-the-enduro-nation-nine-views-on-where-its-heading/

[i]It took off because people tried it and loved it, and raved to their mates about it, and people kept putting them on. Where it changed direction, it was because that was where it wanted to go, not because that was where it had to. A natural thing, driven by the enthusiasm of riders and inspired organisers. The cliche that "it's just like riding with your mates" is what defines it, and imo anything that takes us away from that is bad for the sport.[/i]

That is spot on IMO.

The joy of UK enduro is the way it's grown from the bottom up

Not being contrary for the sake of it, but aside from a handful of events like those Mash-Up races, hasn't UK enduro developed from the top down?

Parr's successful series have inspired other promoters to have a go, with grassroots events developing after the national series.

I think it's quite fitting that the UKGE series should be a step up in fitness and technical challenge from local events - and perhaps from what it used to be.

Developed from the top down my frackin bottom, if you don't mind me saying.

I am pretty sure that we (Inners MTB) put on some of the first Enduros in the UK. (I think the Kona Mash-Up at Glentress, which was like an Enduro apart from the fact that nobody got any times, might have been before us, I am pretty sure we pre-dated UKGE)

And Northwind is right, we developed the format using what we had available in terms of tracks and what riders wanted.

Dan the genius cracked the timing using dibbers and the rest is history.

Well said Northwind.

At this rate in a few years we will have downhill races on the Rampage course, enduros's being held at Champerey, XC races in the Tweed Valley and sod the newbies, if they ain't good enough they don't get to race.

chakaping - Member

Not being contrary for the sake of it, but aside from a handful of events like those Mash-Up races, hasn't UK enduro developed from the top down?

i understood his 'bottom' to refer to the level of talent/skill/speed required.

back in the day, if you could pootle around a red run, you could have a crack at an Enduro. The best still excelled, but everyone could join in.

it's maybe not quite as easy as that now.

or at least, that's how i read it.

ahwiles - OK that might make a bit more sense to me.

But as the discipline grows surely it makes sense that newbies start at more local events and the national series becomes more challenging?

I like doing the odd XC race but I wouldn't dream of entering a national series event, even if I'd magically accrued the points required.

I like doing the odd XC race but I wouldn't dream of entering a national series event, even if I'd magically accrued the points required.

No points needed unless you mean the elite category?

But as the discipline grows surely it makes sense that newbies start at more local events and the national series becomes more challenging?

I like doing the odd XC race but I wouldn't dream of entering a national series event, even if I'd magically accrued the points required.

^^This.

Just because the national series have stated they want to raise the bar and bring the UK series in line with other national series, doesn't mean the discipline is becoming "exclusive".

As for Enrico's comments about inclusion and participation, I took them to mean participation in the whole event vibe, things like the kids coming down to meet riders, the guided rides with pros, the people from town coming into the event village etc.

I am pretty sure that we (Inners MTB) put on some of the first Enduros in the UK. (I think the Kona Mash-Up at Glentress, which was like an Enduro apart from the fact that nobody got any times, might have been before us, I am pretty sure we pre-dated UKGE)

Apologies hels, I think in my mind the Scottish races are a bit separate because you've had access to such good tracks from the start.

From my POV, the best UKGE I did was at Inners and I'd like to see more of the rounds offer that level of challenge.

chakaping - Member

surely it makes sense that newbies start at more local events and the national series becomes more challenging?

maybe, perhaps, but now i'm in danger of playing the 'what would Northwind say?' game...

Enduro has taken off like a rocket because people (even slow duffers like me) can and do join in, thanks to Enduro we're not spectators anymore, we're racers, and that's awesome.

"enduro is in a place that downhill would love to be, with great participation and buzz, new events, sold out races... And yet enduro seems to be moving towards where downhill has ended up, with elitism and barriers to entry... It's at risk of becoming "not for us" to most people just as downhill has... As soon as the image of enduro becomes pros, impossible courses, special bikes and full face helmets it becomes "not what we do", something you read about other people doing."