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Rorschach, this is taken from Pinkbike's definition/explaination of Enduro racing...they felt it necessary to publish an article as lots of riders were getting Endurance events confused with Enduro and vice versa, similarly the strange British way of doing things differently means that a lot of flat pedally stages seem to have crept into our version of Enduro racing....anyway:
[i]The word downhill is an important one: if the timed stages aren’t mostly downhill, it ain’t enduro. The UCI are looking into becoming involved with the format and it is their gravity section who are looking at it, that’s the same people who look after downhill. With the original Tribe enduro races in France they aimed for no more than 10-15% uphill in a stage. That is just a rough figure, you won’t catch them out on the hill with a trundlewheel checking the precise ratio of downhill millimetres of versus uphill millimetres of trail – it was all about how the trail felt when you rode it. If a race has skills' sections or climbing stages in, sure they might be fun races, but they aren’t enduro and shouldn’t be called enduro.[/i]
The ones i've done at Eastridge have been perfect, relatively easy transitions and awesome timed downhill stages, some of which i believe used to be raced for the national DH series back in the 90s....
....everybody will have different preferences but if i feel like i'm having to slog my bike around the countryside for hours on end, struggling to make transitions, racing flat or even uphill stages then i'll leave it alone for now until it sorts itself out and becomes more like the European version....or enjoy a weekend away in Finale Ligure and do their races!
The appeal of Enduro is it was all the fun of DH without the need for a DH specific bike or the pressure cooker environment of the single race run on Sunday...Enduro gives it's participants scope to suffer a mechanical or a crash on one stage but have more stages to come in which to make up any deficit.
The format in this country is new and currently in a state of flux, the debate over helmets, bikes, terrain etc was done about 10 years ago on the continent, shame we've been so slow to cotton on.
The ones i've done at Eastridge have been perfect, relatively easy transitions and awesome timed downhill stages, some of which i believe used to be raced for the national DH series back in the 90s....
Which certainly doesn't make them anything like DH tracks these days 🙂
this is taken from Pinkbike's definition/explaination of Enduro racing...they felt it necessary to publish an article as lots of riders were getting Endurance events confused with Enduro and vice versa, similarly the strange British way of doing things differently means that a lot of flat pedally stages seem to have crept into our version of Enduro racing....anyway:
Who put Pinkbike in charge?
To sum up though..(Quoting Mr Parr
The Full face helmet rule on stages, will be compulsory in 2015.
We are still looking at wording for this rule, if 2 piece full faces are found not to meet reg's, they won't be allowed.
If you go and race an Enduro in Europe Full faces are usually compulsory there.
It is all part of the development within the discipline in the UK.
On a personal note, I'm not a fan of the 2 piece helmet, so if it comes down to race organisers they won't be allowed at UKGE.
We have made a rule, we are not sure what it says, I don't like 2 piece lids.
I assume this means they have fixed the timing by now?
We have made a rule, we are not sure what it says, I don't like 2 piece lids.
I assume this means they have fixed the timing by now?
Devil's advocate says:
We intend to make a rule, we aren't quite sure of the specifics. If 2-piece helmets aren't safe enough to meet the same standard as a FF then they're not safe enough.
I think deviant and philbert are getting 'enduro' mixed up with 'downhill without any uplift'.
I think you're getting 'enduro' mixed up with 'XC with timed stages downhill'
😛
I think deviant and philbert are getting 'enduro' mixed up with 'downhill without any uplift'.
I think you're getting 'enduro' mixed up with 'XC with timed stages downhill'
and here lies the crux of it all, in reality it's fitting in the space between the 2, and long let that continue, they are trying to get it set up here in Tassie we don't have enough DH tracks and variants that you can peddle between, not all the trails will have that much drop in them but the format will be similar, some will be tech and a FF would be useful some it would be a waste of time. Does this mean UKGE is heading to the DH without uplift end of the scale for all events and stages?
in reality it's fitting in the space between the 2
exactly - there are many variations within the spectrum and for some a FF may be a recommendation and others a requirement.
😀
QECP enduros will be riders choice as per pervious years.And for the likes of the QECP enduro's?.
Mikew ukge has the most reliable timing if all the series in the uk, though I've not raced any Scottish series
And ukge has always been about dh tracks, that's why I have to drive all over the uk to race them ! It also helps make it the best series in the country.
This helmet stuff came about because Steve wanted to make it a true national series, which needed to meet BC standards, because of the nature of the stages BC wanted to bring it on line with DH racing.
The problem is that BC rules are very vague, they just say it must be a ff and the only standards mentioned are very basic helmet certs .
So its left to the guy who's put in the effort to create the best series in the country in a race format that is particularly hard to get right. Every stage has to be risk assessed to meet H and S regs, marshals and medical support at any point across a 50k route in the welsh, Scottish, English mountains and provide a reliable timing setup. + insurance (unlike ews)
He has a day job a fiance and a kid on the way, 30 dig weekends a year plus sorting sponsors, race support, camping, toilets can
All that and still have time to chat to the competitors as you leave the start ramp.
So if Parr says it his way then I guess we'll just have to lump it
Or you can set up your own series
Odd post, no ones calling Steve's dedication/commitment into question, not sure why you feel the need to defend him personally. There's some debate about whether folk want to wear FF lids, and the reality is that if he enforces that rule a small number of people will likely go elsewhere to race. This isn't a personal slur on his character though...
I'd be more likely to do a QECP one than a UKGE, and if they go compulsory FF that just reinforces that. Not saying they're better/worse, I'm just not prepared to buy a FF helmet to dip my toe into a different discipline.
I'm also not that interested in the complete 'DH without the uplift' thing, I like the idea of a middle ground!
[i]Rorschach, this is taken from Pinkbike's definition/explaination of Enduro racing...they felt it necessary to publish an article as lots of riders were getting Endurance events confused with Enduro and vice versa, similarly the strange British way of doing things differently means that a lot of flat pedally stages seem to have crept into our version of Enduro racing....anyway:[/i]
The terrain is the key to the routes, along with access - so based on what many are saying, about the only place in the UK you could run a 'decent' Enduro is in Scotland. As we've both the height and the access.
Also, riders if you ain't fit enough to do a bit of mid-stage pedalling and/or transition back up, you need to get fitter.
It does read like I have a bit of a Parr man crush 😉
I'd not reccomend a ukge for a first timer, its aiming to be the toughest series in the uk
The QECP ones would be the perfect place to start, terrain is a bit more forgiving (doesn't stop me from crashing) but great atmos and Scott is a top bloke , though they also sell out well in advance so get in glasto ticket mode !
kimbers - Member
Mikew ukge has the most reliable timing if all the series in the uk, though I've not raced any Scottish series
Not when they started it was rubbish
And ukge has always been about dh tracks, that's why I have to drive all over the uk to race them ! It also helps make it the best series in the country.
It was billed in year one as comparable to red TC grades, with bugger all DH in it at all
It also looks like half the country is setting up Enduro Events so there will be a lot of choice.
As has been suggested by others, I'd imagine the recent tragic accident at Llangolen has focused race organisers' minds on worse case scenarios.
If Steve Parr thinks FF helmets are the way to go for UKGE then fair enough, he may be looking at where he wants to take the series rather than where it's already been.
Maybe we'll see more steep, natural, purpose made tracks and less trail centre descents at future rounds?
Mike back then it was the only enduro series in the uk? And is the only series that races all over the uk
These days it's da gnarcore schnizle
with all them DH tracks at afan and the like 😉
I know he's working hard and all that crap but there is a chance that chucking mandatory FF rules in and still including pedally stages etc. will piss people off and turn them away. Especially if it's just to make it look more radcore. I'd have thought taking a lead from the EWS would have been a better direction unless they want to be tougher than the world series.
At the end of the day, if you don't want to wear a full facer, then don't enter UKGE. There are plenty of other racing options.
I fully support Steve in this. He is responsible for safety at his events, even more so now without the help of British Cycling and their rules and regulations.
And riders - you should pay attention to the safety rules that apply at Enduro races you enter, what equipment is mandated, how many marshals, how many medics. From this year, there will be no commissaires looking out for you.
(not saying that races without commissaires aren't safe, before anybody twists my words, I have helped at a few myself and there plenty of responsible non-BC organisers)
A discussion on rider safety has been long overdue, get involved in it.
So if the focus is on 'DH' tracks then why not do away with the pedalling/transition element and just have an uplifted DH stage race.
No-one ride DH bikes at these races so why should DH rules apply?
as if by magic this popped onto Facebook.
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Sam Hill
Railing berms at the WA Gravity Enduro last weekend. Thanks to Sean Lee Photography for the pic.
Like I've already said, I'd rather take the risk of battering my face wearing an open face helmet than smashing my back because I've had to strap an open facer to it. I rarely ride with a full facer now. By all means make it mandatory to wear a FF helmet on timed stages but remove the silly requirement to wear a helmet between stages.
Sam Hill
Railing berms at the WA Gravity Enduro last weekend. Thanks to Sean Lee Photography for the pic.
Fantastic but what's one picture of an Elite WC DH racer making a personal assessment of Risk really got to do with setting the rules for UKGE 2015?
TBH I don't think the decision is necessarily based soley on safety, The Liability and Insurability aspects of putting on events/series has to come into it unfortunately, would you prefer higher entry prices just so you had some choice over your timed stages lid or worse yet UKGE becomes prohibitively expensive to insure and hence that's an end to it?
Yeah OK some courses might be a bit "Tame" for a FF lid in many rider's judgement, but it only takes one Tubby IT manger smashing his jaw up on a tree to cause bigger concerns for the GE events with the insurers, ability and experience isn't a barrier to entry, so they'll want some confidence that the risk of injury is being managed (arguably higher than that for an XC race, less than that for BDS?).
A blanket rule may not be universally popular, but it would at least put the issue to bed, you'll have a rule to work within, everyone can crack on. If it actually deter's people from entering, you'd have to question their true enthusiasm in the first place...
Fantastic but what's one picture of an Elite WC DH racer [b]making a personal assessment of Risk[/b] really got to do with setting the rules for UKGE 2015?
that we are grown adults capable of making a personal assessment of risk, no need to be an elite WC DH racer.
Yet more common sense and personal responsibility being removed.
I personally crash more in a full face than in a pie case, mostly because they are awful for riding in. There is a hell of a difference in doing 5x3 min runs in one compared to 3-4 hours riding.
You decide what you ride on the course and how you ride it, surely you take into account the risk involved and wear the appropriate headwear. It would put me off doing one for sure.
To be fair if they do introduce a mandatory FF rule as a blanket across all Enduro events then let's be honest the vast majority of people that enter the events will just accept it and get on with it. I'd suspect that it would be the minority who pull out or don't enter these types of events.
Taking it one step further though how long would it be before the H&S crowd/insurers begin demanding that knee, elbow and back protection is worn?
Fantastic but what's one picture of an Elite WC DH racer making a personal assessment of Risk really got to do with setting the rules for UKGE 2015?
About as much as the dude setting the rules saying he doesn't like 2 part lids. There was a part before about wanting to make a standard for all GE's
It's probably a rule that needs a lot of explaining if it's more to do with liability than anything else. It's making people ride with 2 lids and making people race in a full face where some of the trails may not warrant it at all. The thing that is going on here is a discussion, it's probably getting to the stage where riders need to be involved in the way the sport is going and getting views aired and reasons given. A couple of lines on a forum page isn't communication.
Parr & Co have been quite open talking about this on facebook and ride.io and asked riders to put their views accross before they spoke to BC about it all
where [u]some[/u] of the trails may not warrant it at all.
exactly some of the stages at dyfi were trail centre style, some were way more tech
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and jim buchanan knows that
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http://enduro-mtb.com/en/ukge-round-4-dyfi-forrest/
even afan had some steep bits ( I missed this years round)
ews tweedlove was the only round without mandatory full faces ? and considering the steepness of the trails it was a mistake imo
wearing a full face is a pita but the if I can manage it at the megavalanche which has plenty of pedalling and climbing in the alpine summer, I think I can manage a 5 minute UKGE stage even if it has a few minutes of flat pedalling in it
Why was it a mistake at the Tweedlove EWS? I don't recall anyone having a major crash that resulted in a serious facial injury that would have been prevented had they been wearing a full face helmet.
I'm amazed that more of the enduro events haven't gone down this route. Full faces have been compulsory for as long as I can remember in DH, and given the stages (and capabilities of the bikes) are comparable to what we were riding 10 years ago I cant see a problem with it.
Given the speed you can carry even on the flatter sections of the pedally courses I'll happily wear a full face for the timed stages, and I cant see the majority of riders having a problem with it.
On the way down on good stages I wouldn't have a problem with the ff rule. At the likes of Hamsterley UKGE, where the stages are a long way from being wild, I would. Then having to either ride up 4,500ft (not at Hamsterley) in a ff would be shit, and so would landing on your XC lid mid-stage if it was strapped to your back. I bet the landing on your helmet safety test would be interesting if someone did it!
I bet you'd have more incidents from people overheating at a warm race, than you would have incidents relating to people crashing in open face helmets.
Riding around in a full face is not such and issue. Especially if the organisers allow some sensible discretion, e.g. helmets not required on fireroad climbs. Some simple signs could be employed as to where helmets need to bee worn on the way up.
Technology will also catch up pretty soon. If I was a bicycle helmet manufacturer I would be putting all my efforts into an Enduro Specific full face, light and airy but still meets the requirements. Urge have done this, but it's an ugly bugger. I'm sure the likes of Troy Lee could come up with something prettier.
And following stuffing my head into the ground last week, I'm thinking of wearing my full face anyway.
It's not an issue for the riders in the Italian Superenduro series to ride all day in a FF - in fact, the majority have now opted to ride in just a FF and not bother with an open face for transitions.
Having raced out there over the last few years, I can confirm that not only are the races longer, transitions longer (and mainly on tarmac), but it's also a damn sight warmer out there than in the UK.
If they can cope with it, there's no reason we can't.
I fully back Steve in doing this and bringing the UK series in line with European standards. Bear in mind that for Superenduro, back and knee protection are also compulsory.
At the likes of Hamsterley UKGE, where the stages are a long way from being wild
MAybe for you... maybe not for the newbies to the sport....
Enduro racing should be "out all day with the kit you need for all day" not one DH stage followed by another with a fire road inbetween & multiple visits to the pits"
Full face for downhill, enduro should be a long long trail ride, so wear whatever helmet is best for trail riding
What about all those who are too mincey to actually race proper dh? Maybe we could have 'Dh lite' as well 😉
Enduro racing should be "out all day with the kit you need for all day" not one DH stage followed by another with a fire road inbetween & multiple visits to the pits"Full face for downhill, enduro should be a long long trail ride, so wear whatever helmet is best for trail riding
Maybe I'm basing my understanding of Enduro as a discipline on my experience racing in Europe before it was big over here in the UK, but I'd describe the discipline exactly as "multiple DH runs linked by untimed pedal powered transitions". The DH element of it therefore makes the fullface helmet/knee/back protection thing more necessary.
Sadly the UK misused the term in place of "Marathon" and this has continually confused people, and coupled with this weird mental block British riders have around FF or "downhill" ("that's not for people like us"), we end up where we are.
Have a look through the galleries on the link below. You'll not see many open face helmets - they just get on and ride all day in a FF, over longer distances and in hotter weather than we have here:
http://www.superenduromtb.com/category/foto/
Enduro racing should be "out all day with the kit you need for all day" not one DH stage followed by another with a fire road inbetween & multiple visits to the pits"
True, but it's a race, on timed technical sections with untimed transitions. What else do you expect it to be other than a series of linked DH runs? The alternative is an XC race without it's USP of the climbs.
IMO it's only the self propelled climbing aspect that differentiates it from downhill of 10-15 years ago, and thats largely because what passed for a DH bike in 2000 would now look like a trail bike, and weighs less and pedals better.
DH-lite or fat-boy-XC would be a different series.
well you could argue Enduro is where past it DH racers go to retire.
I reckon it could end up being the opposite too, a slightly safer junior race to DH on slightly milder tracks, with cheaper bikes and less suppourt required.well you could argue Enduro is where past it DH racers go to retire.
I fully back Steve in doing this and bringing the UK series in line with European standards. Bear in mind that for Superenduro, back and knee protection are also compulsory.
I would hazard a guess that, for example the average SuperEnduro stage has more 'gnar' and elevation drop than an entire race of UKGE though.
They might be the same in name, but they are very different in experience.
50km round Afan in a full face sounds fun, or having to hump a rucksack around just to strap another helmet to.
Its not a big deal, UKGE you will need a FF helmet It will be part of the rules. So if I do any UKGE I will wear my full face, easy. Won't stop me doing them.
The issue I have is with BC not UKGE. They have made a discussion for the enduro discipline as a whole but at a grassroots level the track/venues are and should be easier/fun. Just hope I won't put off new riders to the discipline which could make it hard for local grassroots races to operate.
I know from experience at the QECP enduro we had 160 riders and 2 of them were wearing FF helmet. How many racing even owned FF?
Not sure what BC are trying to do but they don't want to insure any of the enduros I have helped run. Not sure i can trust BC again, I tried in 2014 lots but every time they came up with a reason why they would not work with us.
Rant over!
Once again, this is not a BC decision.
True, but it's a race, on timed technical sections with untimed transitions. What else do you expect it to be other than a series of linked DH runs? The alternative is an XC race without it's USP of the climbs.
What I expect it to be is "enduro" not lots of timed DH runs, might as well use an uplift or BPW. Riding downhill then soft pedalling up fireroads just isn't endurance to me.
See the Tracy Moseley interview at the Tweedlove enduro in the mag, she has it spot on & I think she has a little bit of experience on the mstter
I spoke to BC quite a bit back in 2012 or maybe 13 and the main thrust of it was, they had no idea what to do about enduro. They didn't seem that sure what an enduro really was, trying to just treat it as a different sort of downhill race and it turned out a lot of their thinking was based on a nameless race organiser who'd told them that most riders at most races already wore full face helmets. They were holding out for DH-style line-of-sight marshalling too! Basically trying to come up with a set of rules without having attended any events or spoken to many race organisers. I think they were hoping for a UCI magic bullet. The last gravity minutes are from mid 2013 and it still just says something like "more representation for enduro is needed".
I'm a bit sympathetic, I guess I could say I've done every sort of UK enduro from top to bottom and the only way one set of rules could adequately cover them all is if it was very tiered, ie have a set of rules for easy courses, a set of rules for harder courses, etc. But that just moves the complication from rule writing to rule enforcement. And that's just one of the messy issues. Glad it's not my job. So maybe they've just said, we don't know what to do with this, it's easier to not deal with it at all.
(this isn't specifically a BC issue but maybe it is- if BC aren't dealing with it, that's a big deal in itself, no? It's kind of what they're for...)
Maybe I'm basing my understanding of Enduro as a discipline on my experience racing in Europe before it was big over here in the UK, but I'd describe the discipline exactly as "multiple DH runs linked by untimed pedal powered transitions". The DH element of it therefore makes the fullface helmet/knee/back protection thing more necessary.Sadly the UK misused the term in place of "Marathon" and this has continually confused people, and coupled with this weird mental block British riders have around FF or "downhill" ("that's not for people like us"), we end up where we are.
Exactly this.
Maybe its because we dont have the terrain to do it properly or maybe its just that weird British thing of having to be different but on the continent where Enduro started it is as Andyrm said multiple downhill runs connected with untimed fire road climbs/transitions.
The UK scene at the moment has jumped on the bandwagon and small organisers are putting on Enduros where they have no business holding that type of race and what you end up with is a timed section of flattish single track....of course your normal piss-pot lid is going to be OK for that...but that isnt Enduro....so when someone like Parr tries to push things forward and model his series on the original european format (where most riders wear FF) he gets a backlash from people who once rode an 'enduro' at Swinley and state that a FF isnt necessary.
rOcKeTdOg - MemberWhat I expect it to be is "enduro" not lots of timed DH runs, might as well use an uplift or BPW. Riding downhill then soft pedalling up fireroads just isn't endurance to me.
Its not an Endurance race.
This is where confusion is coming from, people are reading Enduro and thinking Endurance....Marathon races are for Endurance.
Enduro is about technical predominantly downhill sections that are timed....thats it...its actually really simple, the original French races aimed for no more than 15% climbing in a timed stage.
Bringing Mosely into the sport is a red herring, she is relatively new to a scene that was being raced ten years before she moved across from DH.
They have made a discussion for the enduro discipline as a whole but at a grassroots level the track/venues are and should be easier/fun. Just hope I won't put off new riders to the discipline which could make it hard for local grassroots races to operate.
Maybe true, but maybe that's a marketing thing, maybe rather than trying to create races for the lowest common deonminator both in fitness and skill, new riders should be encouraged into XC races if that's what the courses are.
If we're going to tell new people with no fitness that they can enter a race that's neither a challange to their fitness nor their skill, then they won't turn up because no one else will. Either that or Enduro will become the sportive of MTBing.
I've done one enduro in a full face (Caersws) and one in my trail lid (Eastridge). Both were Mini Enduros and whilst they recommended a FF at Caersws, they didn't for Eastridge. But plenty of folk wore FF on both.
At the end of the day, a mandatory FF for UKGE isn't going to put people off. I'd be more inclined to suggest that the step up to UKGE in fitness terms compared to more grass roots level enduros would mean wearing a FF all day is the least of people's worries; if you ain't fit, you're going to struggle anyway!
The broad use of the word enduro only causes more confusion in the UK. I did the CYB "enduro" at the weekend and I can safely say that certainly 90% of the people I encountered wouldn't know what hit them if they entered a proper enduro.
If there is no BC mandate stating the use of FF then the simplest (and most likely) way of solving the issue is for organizers to [i]advise [/i]the use of a FF for their events. If UKGE want to make it mandatory, so be it but as I implied, the calibre of the rider demographic likely to enter is such that they will either already own, or be able to invest in a FF anyway.
deviant - Memberwhen someone like Parr tries to push things forward and model his series on the original european format (where most riders wear FF) he gets a backlash from people who once rode an 'enduro' at Swinley and state that a FF isnt necessary.
I was there when Steve came to Innerleithen and discovered that enduro doesn't mean riding down a red route climb 😆 He's caught up a long way since mind.
I appreciate it fits your argument but dismissing this as a backlash from johnny-come-latelys and ignorant novices makes no sense. At every level, you can see pros and amateurs voting with their heads. Does Chris Ball not understand what an enduro is, or how about both of our current enduro world champions?