[Closed] Lynskey or Van Nicholas Ti 456?

Warranty covers don't usually transfer to second owners, but if you have all the relevant paper work, who's to know?

It's a tricky question though because no one has yet reviewed the new ti456 and just because it's the same angles and lengths of tube, doesn't mean to say that it's going to ride the same. I'd be interested to see what difference the tube profiles and metal working that Lynskey put into their frames make.

I also just recently bought a second hand ti456 although this one doesn't have a reinforcement bridge and I wasn't aware that they'd introduced this. Can you tell me more.

I paid over £200 less for mine than a new one would cost though so all in I reckon that the discount made it a better choice for me. If they had been the same price, I think I would have gone new and got the warranty, even though they might not end up being as good.

Cant comment on the new one but still loving mine(Lynskey)
2 years on!
Think Brant questioned the added brace on the last Lynskey
made ones?

The dropout snaps off on the ones without the brace, thats why it was added by lynskey

Well i've never noticed mine falling off!

Any high end Ti bicycle welder is as good as Lynsky IMO. I'd be inclined to buy based on features and looks rather than manufacturer -as long as they were high end.

I've got a Lynsky version without the brace, but thats because thats what came up when I was looking.

All the pictures I've seen of broken chainstay ones have large discs on the rear.

Like this:

On One sent it back to Lynskey for me. £100 all-in (carriage to from the US plus back to me and the repair - new rear d/s triangle).

Not sure there'd be an issue over ownership, although On One / Lynskey might not have relationship in a couple of years?

tbh - there are firms in the UK who can repair them anyway

The dropout snaps off on the ones without the brace, thats why it was added by lynskey

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

There are a couple of concerns for me with the older frame. Firstly there are far too many reports (often documented with photographs) of the same breakage in both the pre and post braced tail. Also, since brants departure, and with the introduction of the new design, on one was very critical of Lynskey and the quality of their work. The comments were quickly toned down, but taken alongside the rear failures, clearly suggests that on one was very unhappy with the frame's design and manufacturing quality.

The ti 456 [i]looks[/i] a more convensional (and hopefully reliable) design, but only rider reports will tell.

Edit: interestingly lynskey have a number of frame designs that all incorporate the rear brace. Look for them on chainreactioncycles.com.

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

No, but it looks like it should work so it probably does. I heard thats the way lynskey build their frames

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

can you explain to me why the ones without the brace have failed at the dropout?

they all failed?

Failure on some pictures I've seen looks like inadequate/poor weld penetration, but I'm a layman on these things.

[img] [/img]

That is the only picture of a Ti456 failure I have seen, I don't think it is quite the problem that some STWers make out 🙄

That photo made me realise that a 203mm rear disc is overkill - but also glad that I'd the one with the extra 'pipe'.

Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor?

mine is one of the early ones without the brace and it hasn't broken. As far as I'm concerned it's reliable. That picture ^^^ is the only one I've seen too. How heavy was the rider for a start and what was he /she doing to the bike... riding it off cliffs ?

Kev

That is scary.

It's funny all the titanium mythology - bike for like and all that, but I have seen more cracked and broken titanium frame pics on the interwebs than carbon or steel or aluminium put together recently.

The fact is, titanium is not as strong as good steel. It's not indestructible, and it needs to be designed and welded properly to withstand some of the things MTBs get put through these days. For me, the jury is out.

[i]Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor? [/i]

I dont see it.

mine is still in one piece 2 years later having used hope m4 180mm on the rear.
great bike - excellent geometry and perfect reach.
i still yearn for iscg tabs, but will settle for my BB mounted chain device.
iscg tabs + hammerschmidt....... 🙂

Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor?

I dont see it.

Near the rotor bolts.....

davidtaylforth - No, but it looks like it should work so it probably does.

bigdugsbaws - That is the only picture of a Ti456 failure I have seen, I don't think it is quite the problem that some STWers make out

there were quite a few more

Yep. One or two stories about frame failures is understandable, but there are quite a few about this one and all relate to the rear triangle. That redesign with the strut really made me think again about titanium as a frame material. If I saw a carbon or aluminium frame with one of those modifications I'd run away.

Perhaps rather than blame the metal one should consider the manufacturer. I am firmly of the opinion that all Ti frames are not created equal. I'm still using a 1997/8 Merlin Taiga Ti frame. Over the years, aside from plenty of North Wales and Scottish riding it's also done 3 trips to Morzine, one to Austria and one to the Rockies. No problems at all. In fact I'm just in the process of rebuilding the bike after having a disc mount added and the canti studs removed by none other than Steve Potts in Marin County. (I just hope that this isn't a modification too far!) However, the disc mount is a rather fancy thing with a slender spine extending up the seatstay to spread the load / forces along a seatstay that perhaps was never designed to take the stresses of a disc brake.

Interestingly, Steve has some (anonymised) photos on his site of "mass produced" Ti frames which have been sent to him for repair. Usually the issue seems to be poor welding rather than the metal itself failing.

By the way, Brant, thanks for your advice earlier in the year about the disc conversion.

My Van Nic (456...) Mamtor. It's great BTW.

[img] [/img]

there were quite a few more

Are you just stirring, or care to actually provide any more info?

If I saw a carbon or aluminium frame with one of those modifications I'd run away

OK how about a steel one? My Genesis Croix de Fer has one. My 456 has one. Guess which broke?* Aluminium and carbon fibre stays tend to be larger diameter so cope with the bending load from the brake much better.

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

The moment applied from the braking mount stead of being all bending and shear through the chainstay is now shared between the chain stay and the seat stay, the extra tube transfers some of the moment through a compressive strut.

Can I have a job now?

* Answer - neither 🙄

ChrisS - Member

Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor?

I dont see it.

Near the rotor bolts.....

I only see a tab washer

ChrisS - Member

Is it me or is there also a massive crack in that rotor?

I dont see it.

Near the rotor bolts.....

I only see a tab washer

It's hard to see what it is but whatever it is it doesn't look right.

It's hard to see what it is but whatever it is it doesn't look right.

It's a washer for two bolts (is that called a washer tab uplink?)

Jont- try googling it.

Jont- try googling it.

Yep. One or two stories about frame failures is understandable, but there are quite a few about this one and all relate to the rear triangle.

I spoke to p-x about a year ago when I first thought about selling mine, about warranty transfer, and about the cracked dropouts. I was told there had been 6 failures.
I'm not sure whether that number has gone up, or not, but it does seem to be the same small set of failures that crop up time and time again on these threads- unlike when somebody posts saying that their Commencal has failed.
It's a shame we can't know how many frames were sold, how many have failed, and whether the failures were limited to a particular production run.
Podge, I thought you worked there for a bit -posting something like 'there were quite a few more' isn't very helpful damn you, it's hard to know whether that's half a dozen more, or 50 more.

I emailed on one to ask why they had added the extra brace and about
broken ti456's, didn't really get an answer about the brace but was
assured only a handfull had broken!
My take on it all is any frame can break but the ti456 was so well reviewed
that lots of people took an instant dislike to it and any hint of a problem
they jump on the "they all break" bandwagon.
It is the best hardtail frame i have ever owned(lots) and really hope mine
doesn't break for a long time!

I think he means the marks on the rotor from the metal implement thats been used to bend up the edges of the washertab/tab washer.

My take on it all is any frame can break but the ti456

Yes, any frame can break.

The problem with the Ti456 is it cant brake! (at least not with a snapped seatstay)

I was told there had been 6 failures.

Superstar have never had any brake pads returned either................

Find it slightly hard to believe that I've met 1in3 of the people who've snapped them? I've only met 3 people on ti 456's, and the other was a braced one!

can you explain to me the mechanical reinforcement that the brace adds?

yes, do you have a pen, paper and calculator handy?

Sellotape and pencils is probably a better idea. How does the brace stop the failure shown above?

aww, come on Brant, we're not interested in that stuff, just how many failed. 😈

I'd be more interested to hear how you made a hardtail go so ****ing fast 😆

Cant see images from this PC but presume its the one with the chainstay/dropout pulled appart, the crack startign at the bottom of the weld?

Braking creates a moment arround the rear axel, on the unbraced one the disk mount and seatstay dropout have rotated arround as one (bigger weld, lower stress, than the chainstay/dropout weld?) and pulled the dropout off the chainstay.

Add a brace, the disk mount can no longer flex into the rear triagle, problem solved. Obviously you could argue the 'dropout' has just beem made bigger, why wont it crack att the brace/chainstay join?
- theres no weld, the chainstay is one continuous tube, and therefore stronger than the chainstay/dropout joint.
- being further from the fulcrum (rear axel) the force (and therefore stress, and therefore strain) is lower.
- less butting (I'm guesing, but after adding a big brace like that the tube is no longer butted in that area) so the tube is the same thickness as it is at the dropout therfore backing up the above point about lower stress.

It could have been a good design with poor welding, or a poor design with good welding, or poor design and poor welding, either way a number of the failed.

Look carefully at both frames and you will see a big difference in weld quality.

A mate of mine has a Lynskey-built Ti456 and the quality of welding is of extremely high standard.

Yesterday, while having a mid-ride tea break at a local hotspot I was looking over two Van Nicholas frames and tbh the welds were shocking. Instead of that "stack of nickels tipped over" effect you see on high end Tig welded tube junctions the welds had been very obviously rubbed down, finished off etc. The only reason you would do this as a frame builder is to tidy up crappy welds...

Whatever claims people make about how good Van Nicholas, Chinese manufacturing is, etc.. you just can't compare a new Ti456 to the old one.

The guy welding the frame in the factory in China probably earns as much as the guy across the street in a different factory that makes rubber shoes. Why exactly should he care about quality?

By the way, I am a qualified and certified welder, so do a know a thing or two about this.

From the pic above of the broken chain/seat stay, that is poor weld penetration, no question. It's not a design fault. Every manufacturing process will have a margin of error - a "parts per million" failure rate. That welder obviously had an off day, but there's no reason to suggest it's a common fault - and compared to what I saw on the Van Nic's I know which one I'd choose!

By the way, I am a qualified and certified welder, so do a know a thing or two about this.

then you also know about heat/porosity/contamination/penetration/using a gas purge etc
and how 'neatness' doesn't necessarily mean a solid weld.

I've had a few DMR's, the welding looks like a pidgeon flew over and shat on it. Tough as brick outhouses though.

Here comes the bullshit from the knobs again. If you have the money to pay a huge amount extra for neater welds for a frame which pretty much rides the same, good for you. I'm happy with my lifetime warranty...

Too many people are fastidiously anal about insignificant things that have no impact on anything bar bragging rights it seems...

MrSmith: yes, I do. That's not what I said though is it?

Also, pretty sure that the dropouts on the older Lynskey's were inserted into the chainstay and then the gap welded shut. The later Lynskey's had proper formed ends of the dropouts, shaped kind of like bullet ends, to increase weld area. The brace is just there to reduce flex and make sure it literally can't happen again.

[img] [/img]
I love mine! Current xc setup.

JonT - Are you just stirring, or care to actually provide any more info?

vinnyeh - Podge, I thought you worked there for a bit

Digger90 - The only reason you would do this as a frame builder is to tidy up crappy welds...

anyway, I really should be packing for Japan instead of nobing around on here

The only reason you would do this as a frame builder is to tidy up crappy welds...

As an occasional tig welder of profoundly amateur ability I concur - the only reason I ever do this to a weld is to remove the embarrassing mess I've just made of it 😳

Admittedly when it comes to functionality, welds are all about strength & durability and looks should not matter but to me a neat weld smacks of a competent practitioner working without excessive time pressures, which normally indicates a quality strong job. If I had to trust my life to a weld and there was the choice of a neat one and a messy one, I'd choose the neat one every time - which most certainly wouldn't be mine!

Is this a good time to say I've got an original non [s]butchered[/s] braced Lynksey ti456 18" frame with less than a double figure number of rides in practically as new condition gathering dust in my shed that will be looking for a new owner as soon as I get my arse in gear to photograph it (and a pair of Pikes to match). No idea what to ask for it though....

This [i]'oh, look, they've filed the weld to hide how rubbish it is'[/i] has been argued ad-infinitum re: Cannondale over the years.

As far as I can see, its merely an approach - If you take longer to make a tidy weld, you don't need to finish it in anyway. However, if you weld quicker, the weld will be messier, but not necessarily weaker, and you can hand the frame on to a fettler for finishing.

This could have been done purely for productivity reasons, so lets not confuse aesthetic with functional.

re the filing - I have to say the guy that taught me would disagree and as a Lloyds welder who put together half of Sellafield before moving underwater in the North Sea, I'd like to think I trust him. Having said that, we're talking about a bike here, not a nuclear reactor so standards can afford to slip a little!

Fortunately most of my welding is in poncey bits of furniture so I can blast away with the powerfile to my heart's content!

Which is VERY high quality, zero error tolerance, low volume work.

Perhaps there is another approach that works for bulk productivity where outright demonstration of workmanship is not paramount?

It seems reasonable that there may be a different approach, but I'm not in manufacturing so I wouldn't know.

thepodge - thanks for your reply. I honestly didn't know how long you were working there and didn't know if you were just being brief or if it was sour grapes.

[IMG] [/IMG]

i own a ti456 with a brace. I have ridden mine hard i way alot and push it as hard as i think it will go. i have never had a problem with the frame. Having said that i don't run 203 brakes on the rear.

Fair play to the guy who rode Morzine on it 😉

It kind of saddens me to see peolpe who have owned them and have had so much trouble.

my Lynskey 456ti (with brace) is great.

Very tidy well made bike, rides like a dream and better than my mates steel version (IMHO) which feels harsh by comparison.

I'd buy one of these second hand over a Van Nicholas, especially if its a rear brace version and knew the history.

Convert - mate of mine might be interested in your Ti456. I just bought a second hand one, with all the provenance (receipts, box etc) local to me and paid £550 collected and cash (so saved on fees for the seller). Just to give you an idea of what to ask.

I purchased one of the last remaining TI456's last year from On One before their big move to Rotherham and I LOVE IT! Great feeling bike, nice and springy at the back and certainly NO DAMAGE OR CRACKS anywhere! I ride my bike every week and I love it! Still the best hardtail frame out there!

Greg - Thanks for that - that was the sort of money I guessed I'd get. That makes each ride I actually used it for cost about £80! They were damn good rides though!

I have an unused Ti456 Flame Blasted logo frame in 18" in my loft.
I bought it planning to build it up, havn't yet.
Now lusting after TD1 instead...ho hum.

I have one of these "cheap" Taiwanese frames and there's no sign that anyone has had a file near the welds.

The idea that every welder in the US is some sort of amazing craftsman and his Taiwanese counterpart is a clown is just laughable. Have you ever driven an American car?

Sour grapes??

I don't own either a Lynskey or Van Nic 456 so no axe to grind here...

Merely trying to help the OP with an observation from someone who's actually qualified on the subject, rather than some of the e-speculators who seem to increasingly frequent this place.

Sheesh!

Interesting thread. I can't believe people are still buying expensive hardtails.

Carry on.

JonT - thepodge - thanks for your reply. I honestly didn't know how long you were working there and didn't know if you were just being brief or if it was sour grapes.

there are no sour grapes, I left them for a much better job. I'm sure the bikes are very good, its just the management are tossers.

there are no sour grapes, I left them for a much better job. I'm sure the bikes are very good, its just the management are tossers.

lol - oh the irony..............

fwiw, mine's still in one piece after a brutal ride over the grampians this week 🙂

[i]Interesting thread. I can't believe people are still buying expensive hardtails.

Carry on.
[/i]

My 456Ti was only £800, I wouldn't say that was expensive, especially when compared to the average carbon XC bike or even alloy FS.

My 456Ti was only £800, I wouldn't say that was expensive, especially when compared to the average carbon XC bike or even alloy FS.

Mine too. BARGAIN 😀

Looking at the picture my tabs are diferent to those shown, I have a ti 456 with the brace and the tabs where this failure is are bullet type ones on mine. Looking at my classic inbred - the tabs on the pic are similar to those.

I've a 456ti without the brace.

It's an excellent bike, ride it as much like my FS as possible, doesnt seem to complain 😀