[Closed] lordswood trails destroyed

Sad news indeed, but unsurprising given the amount of recent, more extreme building in obvious plain view areas

Riding there tonight, so will see what's left of the more natural, hidden trails and report back

@ DT78 . Nick did wonder who it was at WL. I was there with DezB , SomaRich , PPoddy and Wriggles.
We guessed it was a BBB attendee Nick didnt recognise .

Just a LW vet, sadly not made a BBB yet as it rather inconveniently tends to clash with my wedding anniversary.

If I'd known I would have said hello to you all 🙂 as it was I had to catch up my buddies who had carried on (nothing like moral support) after I had snapped my chain through the awesome amount of torque I produce....or is that rubbish shifting....

Just back from this evenings run, explored the more natural runs, they are untouched so it is basically the obvious runs which had had been built up off the main crossroads. So feel happier than last night. Still would like to know why they couldn't have leveled those trails with a mini digger with minimal environmental damage instead of ripping up hundreds of trees and bushes. Meet a dog walker who was not impressed with the damage as well, so it isn't just cyclists who are unhappy with it.

Anyway I really hope they are rebuilt more in accordance with FC rules and the jumps stick to the area Nick has secured for us all.

Still would like to know why they couldn't have leveled those trails with a mini digger with minimal environmental damage instead of ripping up hundreds of trees and bushes.

This is my biggest gripe, the trails were too obviously aggro for the location so its no surprise they knocked them down but a mini-digger would have caused little additional damage to the woods or to the forest floor.

WCA's skills area was getting sessioned by some little kids when I rode past which was good to see.

DT78. Relieved to hear that the more natural trails survived.

But agree that there are more environmentally friendly, diplomatic and less destructive ways of going about this.

I expect they were trying to make a point.

Still staggered that anyone is whining at the FC or landowner, people have gone onto private land and built trails. You can argue the rights/wrongs of private ownership of woodlands and that suggestions are too far away but as it stands you shouldn't be there and haven't been invited. Yeah, they've made a mess of it but it if the alternative is avoiding some scrote suing them when they crash, or land on a dog walker/under a vehicle they'll take the cheapest, quickest most obvious route to do so.
Just hope the Ramblers aren't reading this while deciding whether to back opening footpaths up to cyclists.

I had a quick scout on the way home, was pleased to find certain bits still there. Others which were smashed look like they may now mature into nice natural (apart from their creation ) lines.

Where is the WCA skills area?

Whilst legally 'scrots' could try sueing when you read news stories like this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18247958 you can see that judges are starting to interpret the law in favour of the landowner. (I agree with the principle in favour of the landowner, though the particular story linked is a bit shocking)

As for whining, I am a nature lover and a cyclist. I don't build trails or use jumps, I maintain them, I pick up litter, I've put out fires, I've helped people find dogs etc... I feel attachment to the area I spend 10 or so hours per week there and to see it so badly damaged is upsetting. I have never once seen a ranger there. The only time they appear would seem to be to damage (sorry maintain) the environment.

I agree the jumps should be removed, it was getting too extreme and too close to other forest users. It is the manner of the damage caused, it is, in my opinion OTT.

Yoda - it is in the sportscentre off coxford road, looking quite good from what I saw over the weekend.

Having seen it tonight, they certainly have made a bit of a mess. Still, there is plenty to ride there, just not quite so easy to put a loop together.

I'm sure the phoenix will rise from the ashes & a few lines will be cleared.

Strange how they missed some pretty apparent trials however, but got some I was surprised about.

Yoda - In Southampton Sports Centre. Top of the hill looking down on the football pitches. opposite side to the ski slope.

Cheers dude i will check it out over the weekend. Lets hope we can get lordswood back to how it was. Keep me posted on any new stuff going on locally

Lets hope we can get lordswood back to how it was.

You mean [b]before[/b] all the illegal trail building, I assume? I rode there then and it was great fun.

Yeah great fun. I did enjoy some of the bigger stuff though. Was real gutted yesterday when i found workmans was no more.

Just hope the Ramblers aren't reading this while deciding whether to back opening footpaths up to cyclists.

There are no footpaths in this area (only 1 at the north border). Like cyclists, walkers are only permitted on the fire-roads not on any of the singletrack/small paths.

There are no footpaths in this area (only 1 at the north border). Like cyclists, walkers are only permitted on the fire-roads not on any of the singletrack/small paths.

I don't think either cyclists or walkers are permitted on the fire tracks. Other than the foot path that goes from coxford road to the chilworth arms exit, bridle way on the north edge and foot paths near the lordswood house block.

[i]Just hope the Ramblers aren't reading this while deciding whether to back opening footpaths up to cyclists.[/i]

There are no footpaths in this area (only 1 at the north border). Like cyclists, walkers are only permitted on the fire-roads not on any of the singletrack/small paths.

My point was that The Ramblers can say "Look what Mountain Bikers do to areas where they shouldn't be, imagine what they'll do when they ARE allowed."

[i]My point was that The Ramblers can say "Look what Mountain Bikers do to areas where they shouldn't be, imagine what they'll do when they ARE allowed." [/i]

When we started the Southampton Bike Park in the Sports Centre I was expecting a massive backlash. It took the best part of a year for me to negotiate permission for the digging and since we started we have had massive support from everybody, including walkers, dog walker, runners and general Joe Public. The general feedback is that it is a great assett and gives everyone somewhere to ride.

We made a point of putting the childrens trails in first so they could see it wasn't just for the jump bunnies and nasty mountain bikers.

2 complaints that I am aware of:

1) There are a load of yobs digging a big hole in the sportsa Centre
Reply - Yes, they are building a bike area for everyone to use
Response - Oh what a good idea, that hill isn't used for anything else.

2) It looks like some people have tried to build a bike track but not finished the job.
Reply - They are building a bike track and have not yet finished
Response - Well it looks a mess
Reply - The backs of all the berms are seeded with grass and it will blend in
Response - Well lets hope it looks better soon

I guess there are other people mumbling into their beards about it but that is the only negative feedback so far.

The mix of people who turn up and ride is amazing from little kids on push along bikes, to scroats on knackered bikes, to kids on BMXs and their first MTB, to the Southamption University club. Even the Cyclocross guys have used it on their training sessions.

Hopefully the diversity of use and the familiarisation of people with the riders will break down the negative images that some people have.

To be honest, I doubt we will ever persuade the bike haters but should help sway the masses.

DT78

What really needs to happen is the law needs to change so landowners can't be sued if you hurt yoursellf oing something dangerous like jumping, that and right to roam. Fat chance.

You can try sueing a landowner if you wish but there has never been a successful case as far as I am aware.

this is a myth put around - gawd knows why. Stop perpetuating it

If the trails are unsanctioned and the landowner does not know about them then there is no liability. It doesn't come cloese to it. Of course once the landowner knows the3n this changes - any trails have to be built to reasonable standards of safety like at traiul centres.

My point was that The Ramblers can say "Look what Mountain Bikers do to areas where they shouldn't be, imagine what they'll do when they ARE allowed."

And it seems they would have a point ?

New to this forum, but have sent an email to the FC about it. Just asking if the destruction is worth it to them, and how this equates with the upcoming olympics (plus the tree with the barn owls in has been taken out), and that my kids were in tears when they saw what had been done. I also included a link so they could have a look at what's been done at QECP nr Petersfield.

Anyway, I know the type of reply I'll get, but then I'll be forwarding the same email with before and after photos to the local MP for his opinion as well.

Tempted to get up there on friday 8th with a shovel to make a start. Though I've no interest in big jumps, more twisty stuff and berms.

How depressing to see the devastation/devastation caused 🙁 I live real close by and have spent many happy hours up there developing my skills (or lack of them!) Not much more to say really.... just pi**ed off really 🙁

Narrow trails through the woods are one thing and controversial enough on private land.

Jumps and "big features" are something else, it doesn't take much, an ambulance call out or an owner just worried about being sued to get them knocked down.

Anyway very sad to see, I feel sorry for you guys.

FWIW as far as I know the biking in Alice Holt is dull as dish water, hardcore packed fireroads.

I've been building up there for around 18 months with a view to bettering my riding. During my many days work up there I picked up litter left by chavvy children and other trail 'builders' repeatedly. Redbull cans and Ginsters pasty wrappers were the favorites. I used only dead wood and never felled live trees which is in my opinion the only sensibile approach when building on 'un-sanctionned' land since no destruction of the woods takes place. I spoke to Hundreds of locals, walkers, riders, firemen (when ferrel children tried torching the place 2 summers ago like Swinley) and even a Council van, and Every Single Person said they thought it was great to see people using initiative to encourage healthy activity in this Olympic year aswell. A careing attitude towards the woodland for the benefit of many. The authorities did say however that the place gets 'culled' every 3 or 4 years as standard or when the Paramedics are called out to the place too many times. The rough terrain makes for a difficult rescue proceedure when trying to get to a casualty, and so this sort of activity can't be overly encouraged. The fact is that the F.C and even the Land-owner don't really care what goes on on that land: trails, berms, jumps or bumps, or anything else for that matter - if they did they'd fence it off after all the motorbike thefts, rapes and the odd murder thats happened up there. All they care about is if people are getting injured and involving the emergency services on a regular basis. Too many idiots on 50 quid bikes and with no protection/helmets not riding to their abilities and getting Airlifted out with broken bones and punctured lungs EVERY weekend (I saw 3 with my own eyes this year alone). Coupled with this insane Blame and Claim attitude we have in the UK means that nothing ever survives past the 3 year mark.... Ride at your own responsibility people. If you ride Banzai and hurt yourself then accept responsibility for your actions and don't make it everybody else's problem. Pad-up and ride to your limits. Don't expect the state to always clean up after mistakes made - speak to any of the other guys who broke the odd collarbone up there by trying to improve and they'll say the same - I'm just amazed at how ALL of the pathways included are now impassable for all people!! Just wait for the Chilworth-dogwalking massive to start claiming for cuts and impalments on all those splintered trees. A true shame it happened but not a surprise to me at all. Now pass me that shovel....

Diggatron - you need to get some things straight

Its nothing to do with blame and claim - there is no claim possible on the landownners - unless they do not remove unsanctioned features that they are aware of. So once they are aware of these features they have to remove them.

What yo are doing is illegal, and plainly morally wrong. Building trails when you do not have permission is criminal damage - simple as

You and the diggers are in the wrong, the landowner in the right. Your actions damage mountainbiking immensely.

tj your probably right but its ridiculous the extent that which they have gone. i dont see the point in having the woods if they are happy to destroy them for bikes and ramblers, dog walkers.
all the bikers i've encountered up there have been good eggs.
bikes in the area isnt a bad thing, we have certainly helped with reporting fires, thefts, assults up there over the years and most likley makes it a safer place.

i know the trail builders are in the wrong but ironically it will be them that will tidy up the area for all to use again..
if they can just leave out the big jumps there may be a chance to coexist.

double post oddness

TandemJeremy: everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm not about to get involved in a tit-for-tat slanging match about the rights and wrongs of what we do.

I am aware that the all the digging is not sanctionned since the land is privately owned, but to describe the careful trail building as 'Criminal Damage' and 'Morally wrong' is frankly absurd and quite laughable!!
This is not the same as invading someone's garden and digging up the lawn you know!

May I ask if you ever visited all the trails that were carefully built and maintained by actual 'DO'ers like us or are you merely commenting from your armchair afar?

All of us diggers are aware that it is the Landowners perogative to do as they wish with the land, and we accept that - If the landowner (who owns Lordswood as part of a far bigger national estate by the way...) wanted to build houses or any other feature on the land, we are all powerless to dissagree - and doesn't bother us in the slightest.

Your final comment about 'damaging mountainbiking immensely..'
Oh please, LOL!
If you think that spending months of time and effort sculpting flowing lines and trails out of the landscape with a few tame features, all with chicken-runs if needed; and continual litter-picking is a 'immensely damaging' pass-time then you clearly come at this from a different perspective than thousands of us happy bikers.

These trails have been destroyed, and the replacement trails will begin their construction next weekend no doubt - all to be destroyed again in 3 or so years! Its just the UK, if we don't like it we should just move to British Columbia Canada.
See you at the next dig-weekend! 🙂

Here is a thread from 2 years ago, from the FC's viewpoint nothing has changed

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/lordswood-southampton-the-forestry-commissions-response ]Lordswood / FC[/url]

diggatron

1) Yes it is criminal damage - thats the legal situation. Morally is always debatable but in my view it certainly is morally wrong - for nothing else but for the damage it does to the reputation of mountainbikers and that it gives the excuse to exclude mountainbikers.

2) the landowner is constrained in what they can do with the land - and rightly so.

3) of course this damages the image of mountainbikers and you are contributing greatly to this.

If you continue to commit this criminal damage I would like to see you prosecuted - for the damage you and your like do to the image of maountainbiking. Please stop.

How about engaging with people and creating legal facilities as Worldclass accident has done?

When I agree with TJ, you just KNOW that it's right.

Quite annoying when your hard work is destroyed.

We spent approx 6 months building this lot...

[img] [/img]

Council spent less than 6 hours turning it into this...

[img] [/img]

Fair enough, it was on council property, no permission yada, yada, but the council are now rebuilding the jumps at a cost of over £100k.

Edit: Vid shot 2 days before is got gone.

Is this the skills area?

How about engaging with people and creating legal facilities as Worldclass accident has done?

yoda2376
Is this the skills area?

No, see below.

TandemJeremy

What yo are doing is illegal, and plainly morally wrong. Building trails when you do not have permission is criminal damage ... Your actions damage mountainbiking immensely.

We understand the legality of our actions TJ. It may send your moral compass spinning, but what we do does NOT damage mountainbiking for people who ride mountain bikes. I couldn't care less what some stuffy council bod thinks of our past-time. Here in Norn Iron, if we didn't illegally build trails (any type of trail) there would be nowhere to ride. Our FC have no interest in playing ball (like the mainlanders seem to) and only last year they proposed a bye law to turn anyone who set foot in [i]their [/i]forests into a criminal.

Things seem to be changing, and our first officially sanctioned trails* are due to be finished next spring. Something most of the local builders are really excited about. Obviously illegal building will continue, and continue to damage our image in the eyes of righteous.

*A couple of private ventures opened last year, and while I applaud the efforts of the landowners, the trails are family orientated and rather flat.

We understand the legality of our actions TJ. It's may send your moral compass spinning, but what we do does NOT damage mountainbiking for people who ride mountain bikes. I couldn't care less what some stuffy council bod thinks of our past-time. Here in Norn Iron, if we didn't illegally build trails (any type of trail) there would be nowhere to ride. Our FC have no interest in playing ball (like the mainlanders seem to) and only last year they proposed a bye law to turn anyone who set foot in their forests into a criminal.

I think you are missing the point. If 'mountain bikers' get the reputation as people who turn up on other people's land and start digging it up for their own purposes then it has the potential to damage access for all. When it is suggested than the forest get closed to the public completely, it will end up with open to walkers only - "because they cause little damage" (in the eyes of the walkers and land owners). Mountain biking didn't start with people building trails - it began with people riding on existing paths/trails/bridleways. Man made bike trails are a more recent 'invention', and have value as part of the total range of activities but they are not the be-all-and-end-all. If there is no really technical skills area locally and you don't want to travel, perhaps you bought the wrong bike?

I'd have thought you were likely to have more impact on 'officialdom' by showing that people are travelling to the mainland to do this and the tourism figures for the 7 stanes etc. You should be able to "sell" mountain biking infrastructure on your side of the sea quite easily. What won't convince them is if they think they will put in facilities and then mountain bikers will come and modify/extend on their land.

There are a lot of people who are quite happy to pick up a spade and do some building, and generally seem happy to comment on how officials are just not interested etc. I wonder how many of them have ever been to see their local councillor and MP (or MLA) to discuss mountain bike access and facilities? In my experience these guys are looking for 'causes' to back, and one that (i) appeals to young people; (ii) encourages people to be active; (iii) is out doors and can involve both rural an urban communities etc - is pretty much ideal. When you can point to success stories at other locations it is all the easier for them to say "we want a piece of that".

diggatron - These trails have been destroyed, and the replacement trails will begin their construction next weekend no doubt - all to be destroyed again in 3 or so years! Its just the UK, if we don't like it we should just move to British Columbia Canada.

Yes what you do with illegal trail building does damage mountainbiking as it gives the anti mountain bikers an open goal to score in - "look at the damage they do"

Northren Ireland may be a bit different and I did say the moral position was arguable. However in the case we were discussing at lordswood their can be no doubt. People like WCA who are locals are trying hard to get legal trails and illegal builders put this back

I couldn't care less what some stuffy council bod thinks of our past-time. Here in Norn Iron, if we didn't illegally build trails (any type of trail) there would be nowhere to ride. Our FC have no interest in playing ball (like the mainlanders seem to) and only last year they proposed a bye law to turn anyone who set foot in their forests into a criminal.

What a stinking attitude, in the end clearly the guys who built the trails are the one who are responsible for all the destruction.

If they had kept off then none of it would have happened.

What a stinking attitude

I can appreciate that it is hard to comprehend just how backward my country is.

My attitude is born from years of frustration. Guys have been working hard behind the scenes for decades. Meetings with FC, councils, funding bodies, trail designers etc. Some projects got as far as getting the go-ahead from all concerned, funding in place, trails marked out - only for the FC pull the plug at the last minute. Some MPs and councillors were keen to jump on the bandwagon, grab a photo opportunity and a few headlines, then scurry off, not giving the projects a second thought.

The jumps above were only knocked down when one of the 'official' chaps decided to show a local councillor and Dafydd Davies some of the homebrew trails around belfast. Plans are now in motion to rebuild the jumps (although they'll likely be less rad) along with an xc loop. It's only taken 10 years.

The illegal building will continue because the official stuff will not be challenging enough for the guys who build.

Isn't this what happened with Ashton Court? Lots of unauthorised trails which lead to the formal recognition of the trials as the original Timberland trail.

It's not quite the same situation. The riding taking place in AC was nice accessible singletrack. Any jumps or DH there have always been given short shrift. Anyone remember the doubles that sprang up in Keeper's Wood a few years back, and got bulldozed just as quickly?

I do have some sympathy for the norn Ireland folk given the background. Its not the same situation as the OP tho

Back when I was at uni in Southampton, '97-'01, the jumps and DH were being flattened too. There would always be a rumour that a kid from Lordshill had crashed on a jump, an ambulance called and the FC had had to flattened them because of H&S. The singletrack was never touched though, maybe because it had evolved naturally and there weren't obvious berms or jumps. Lordswood was well known for burnt out stolen cars and bikes, kids racing scooters, locals taking drugs, fires and generally a place you didn't talk to the locals in. It must be frustrating not being able to get agreement for building as this would seam to be one of the few positive things that happen in the wood!

@Euro, I can see that's a lot of work to build those jumps and I take my hat off to you to have the skill to ride it.

But .... those dirt jumps (not mountain biking in my book) are going to attract a huge amount of negative attention and in a way that you shouldn't be surprised leads to all the trails getting flattened. I have to say in a selfish way I am worried about this building trend as the trails I can and do ride are at risk. On a favourite and reasonably technical trail I rode today the existing double/gap and been joined by two 6-8ft dirt jumps like your own

building illegal jumps does piss landowners off, it is their land after all. I have seen it in my locality, it happens again and again. If your going to build illegal tracks, modifying badger and deer tracks is one thing, building large doubles is crucifying yourself. I accept that there are occasions when no amount of talk will help but such is life. Does mountain biking mean large wheel BMXes or riding a bike in the countryside?

[i] Does mountain biking mean large wheel BMXes or riding a bike in the countryside?[/i]

Both, depending on my mood. That's why after getting fed up with my unauthorised builds being destroyed I found somewhere I could build them with permission. Hopefully this will leave Lordswood to develop into a more single track XC place and the trails won't get destryed again.

awh - Brings back memories. At lot of work has gone into improving Lordswood. Far less stolen mopeds and no burnt out cars for a year or so.