[Closed] (Jumping) How to consciously practice “heavy feet” during take off?

Just so's I know, a 'manual' is a wheelie, right?

[img] [/img]
This is a manual
[img] [/img]
This is a wheelie

mtbel so can you do a bunny-hop without holding your bars?

To perform a proper bunny hop also know as the american hop. You use a manual to loft the front wheel off the ground, at the top of the arc you push the front wheel away from you this causes you to transition from manaul to bunny hop. So you still need to hold on to the bars but there is no pulling up on handlebars.

Good luck with digesting all the 'advice' so far.

I took up MTB at age 61 and my son taught me to jump. My advice, go out on the bike and spend some time just bouncing around on the bike like you are on a feeble trampoline. This will give you a feel of weighting and unweighting the bike. Then start small, with a pavement kerb in a side street. To get what you call 'heavy feet' for the take-off you actually need to have pushed up off the pedals beforehand then your weight comes down for the pump just before the lift. If you have been practicing your 'trampolining' on the flat then the timing of the pump will come naturally, but if you mess it up then you are only four inches of the ground.

Does that make sense? Imagine yourself on a trampoline wanting to get some height. You wouldn't just extend your legs, you would start with a little jump then at the end of your landing you would then push off. But, as I say, practice bouncing around to start with - you'll soon learn what light and heavy feel might mean.

I know that jairaj that's why I was asking him what sort of bunny-hop he meant. And with an 'american' bunny-hop, the type you would use to clear a big obstacle or hop onto a high ledge, you do pull on the bars, even if its mainly back in towards your chest to maximise your height before levelling out.

while I agree mtbel/gw comes across as a cock, he does know what hes talking about. Its a shame he cant explain things without sounding like a petulant child.

the problem with mtb forums is it is often the blind leading the blind when it comes to technique. there is No pulling with the arms at all with getting the front wheel up. when you learn how to manual this makes sense.

I tried for ages as a kid to try and master bunnyhops, but could never get it. it was only in my 30's when I learnt and understood the mechanics of manualling and bunny hopping, and also pumping and boosting of the lip of a jump.

the brian lopes book is a good starting point. I used this and a summer of riding a bmx to get the basics. I'm still very average, but do ok.

To be fair the main problem is probably putting into words what we do without normally thinking about it. I'm no expert by any stretch but I can hop my BMX onto a 2' ledge, and it sure as hell feels like I have to pull back on the bars during part of the motion to achieve this!

EDIT: although thats of no relevance at all to the OPs original question!

I'm not much at manualing, can keep the front end up for a short while, long enough to clear stuff on the trail. Most of the effort is in my legs, compress front end, weight transfer back and push through with your legs. Not much pulling or you tend to tip to one side or t'other.

Jumping, again I'm no master but as has been said I just compress with legs into the lip, the bike comes up nice and smooth with almost no effort. When timing is spot on its very effortless.

the problem with mtb forums is it is often the blind leading the blind when it comes to technique. there is No pulling with the arms at all with getting the front wheel up. when you learn how to manual this makes sense.

Of course there's pulling, your arms are under tension. If they weren't you'd be able to manual no-handed. And you can't. Or, another way of looking at it: What would happen if your stem snapped mid-manual?

You might as well say Tug o' War involves no tugging, that it's all about the weight transference.

you see this argument a lot. You see lots of beginners actually pulling with their arms only, bending their arms and actually using just the arms to try and get the front end up, this ain't right and will lead to instability. It's the transfer of weight of the whole body from the initial front end pump to straight arms and pushing through with the feet. I would say the majority of the work is done with the push through from the legs, your shift of body weight backwards will be transferred through to the bars with straight arms.

You are pulling but it actually doesn't feel like a pull to me, I'm just moving my weight back and pushing feet forward, the straight arms will have a pulling impact as the body goes back but overall it feels much more like a pushing motion with the feet.

kissing girls is for when it's too dark/wet to jump 20ft doubles.

You don't ride 20 foot doubles in the dark?

Pussy. Get some lights yer weekend warrior.

ichi - that makes sense. Telling people that the weight transference is the most important (only) aspect to concentrate on is one thing.

Saying that there's no pulling when there obviously is is just going to confuse people.

This is a manual

This is a wheelie

first time I have laughed out loud at anything on this forum - cheers Rorschach

OK, getting the front end up, i don't quite agree with the statement that you aren't pulling, but more along the lines of you're not pulling the bike into your body, you're merely keeping the front end tracking your shift in body position.

OP - Someone earlier in the thread had the right idea to be, go to a pump/BMX track, get pumping really nailed, work on your manuals, work on your bunny hops, i'd strongly argue that jumping, certainly more advanced jumping, it is just the skill you learn pumping combined with bunny hopping with the timing adjusted.

Or you could just do what any sensible kid does, build a small wooden kicker, consistently hit that and kerb kickers, makes going anywhere far more interesting and you will just get it. Accept you will fall off and man up.

Relaxation is key too, the more you do it, the more confident you are, the more you will relax. There is always a point though where you do just have to do something bigger and suffer the consequences.

[i]I just call a spade a spade. always have. always will.[/i]

Oh, OK, you come across as an attention seeking knobber

just sayin, y'know

Like most things bike, the critical point is that it's YOUR mass that needs to be raised, not that of your BIKE! (because even the raceyist racing snake still weighs 4 or 5 times what their bike weighs!)

Imagine you're on your bike in space,ie zero g (bear with me here! lol) and are in the normal centered position, with straightish legs and slightly bent arms, like this:

[img] [/img]

Now, what happens if you just raise your arms and legs towards your body?

The answer is the bike comes up towards you, but your mass pretty much just travels along the way it was previously going, in fact, [b]you[/b] actually move slightly downwards. Not what we want to help you clear a jump!

In order to make the combined mass of us and our bike "jump" we need something to push against, in this case, it's the rest of the planet below us!

So, by initially crouching down, we move our mass closer to that of the bike, then as we travel up the jumps "ramp" towards the lip we stand up, letting our legs and arms straighten. In effect, we have made ourselves "heavy" during this time (pushing down with legs mostly, but also with our arms), so what we have done is allowed the planet to push back against our mass, which starts to lift us into the air. As our legs straighten, the natural gradient of the jumps ramp continues to push through our now straight/stiff legs, and accelerates our mass into the air. As the bike has been pushed as well, it follows us up (hence you can jump in flats)

If you have timed all that right, as the bike leaves the lip of the jump, it's suspension should be fully drooped (uncompressed), your legs straight (or practically so), and you arms straightish. What really helped for me was thinking not about jumping [b]up[/b], but about really trying to push the bike into the ground, practically trying to shove it through the face of the ramp.

Now, what you do with your arms depends upon the steepness & length of both the take off and landing ramp. If you start on nice long, shallow ramped (take off & landing) jump, it isn't too critical. You basically hold the front of the bike up, but don't actively "pull up" really.

On such a suitable small shallow jump, you can then play about with different amounts of leg push, different amount of arm pull etc. The idea is always to try to match the angle of the bike in the air to that of the landing ramp, for a smooth both wheels at once landing ideally.

Keep practicing this, stay on small manageable shallow jumps, and slowly (in my case 😉 ) you get the "hang of it". It's not something that comes particularly naturally to me tbh, even when shown it by the likes of UkbikeSkills! One advantage of getting real one2one coaching is that you at least can be shown what you should be doing, and even if like me, you can't do it at first, you can go away and practice it.

What you also learn is the skill of "reading" a jump, in terms of your speed, it's steepness, the type of lip, and how that affects the motions you need to make. Some of this stuff is really quite subtle, as that video^^^ shows (with them clearing some pretty big gaps without a totally obvious and massive push/pump etc).

Hopefully that's useful to someone!

(usual internet forum caveats apply: your mileage may differ, i'm not a doctor, my cat is sad etc etc)

It's also worth perhaps understanding the difference between getting off the ground with a pump and with a bunnyhop.

As humans, with [b]just[/b] our legs, we can jump up off a perfectly flat piece of ground. Normal people probably to say 2 foot off the ground, highly trained high jumpers, probably 7 foot.

But, with a "lever" we can use it's mechanical advantage to really get some air, like this:

[img] [/img]

And it's the same when on a bike. Crouch right down, bent arms and legs, then stand up and force the bike into the ground. If you've got full suspension, this gives you a helping hand, and you and your bike jump up off the ground, pretty much horizontally. For the average rider, i'd say you could probably get maybe 10" off the ground tops, because there is only so much energy you can store the length of your legs.

But, bunny hops are really cheating, because we effectively "lever" ourself up around the rear wheel, using the bike as a lever. By pumping into the front suspension, then rocking backwards, the bike angles upwards, and because our feet are attached to the BB (via the crank and pedals) we can use the length of the chain stays to lever our mass into the air. This means we effectively start the bit of the jump where the wheels of the bike leave the ground with our mass about 2feet higher than otherwise. High enough, that you can get the bike 2 foot off the ground by just pushing forwards and through on the bars and lifting your legs (your mass stays where it is for a bit, and the bike comes up to you, leveling out)

As such, a really good bunny hopper (ie NOT me!) can jump over 4 foot from a stationary start! If you can learn to do this when going up the ramp of a jump, that is also pushing you upwards, then here comes "BIG AIR"!!

If you have a look at some of the top freeride and DH guys, they "huck" up off things with a bunny hop, and as they leave the lip, the bike is practically vertical and the bars touchning their chest (and in effect they have used it to lever themselves 2 foot higher up than even the lip of the jump!)

Look at the angle and position on the bike in this recent pic from Lourdes, as Mike Jones hucks a massive techy hip on his way to a podium spot!!
[img] [/img]

I agree with mtbel when he disrespects the heels down/heavy feet philosophy as in my experience it's bobbins (but for coaches teaching novices it kinda gets their body in a suitable riding position so i see why they use terms like this).

I don't agree with the not pulling up bit when jumping or bunnyhoping because you can do it, in fact you'll never jump or bunnyhop particularly high if you don't. That's not to say you should do it when you are learning as it can cause issues with hitting the ground with your body and that can be rather off-putting. It's really only for people who are very confident in the air.

From reading the posts above i'm guessing most people consider jumping as leaving the ground and then landing using just the speed and the shape of the transition to dictate how high far they go. Proper jumping relies on the pump, and the greater your pumpage the higher and further you can go for a given speed. A low shallow transition hit at a slow to moderate speed can result in a rather impressive amount of airtime if you can pump to the max.

OP - try this little experiment. Pretend you are on your bike and stand accordingly - feet where your feet would be on the pedals (with strong foot forward and knees bent) and hands on the pretend bars, elbows bent. Now jump as high as you can holding this position. In order to leave the ground, you will have lowered your body by bending your legs before springing up into the air. This is what the pump feels like and it's the bit that you need to practice. Once you can jump really high (you'll be bending very low indeed and springing up quickly) you need to work on the timing as far too many people pump out of sync with the ground they are riding - even when just riding trails.

If anyone is trying this at home, please don't use your full pumpage when working out the timing, as again, bad things will happen to you, you bike, and to you again.

A few things... when learning try and find a jump that at the very least, is a bike lengths long and if possible use a hardtail to learn on.

Reading the advice in this thread is confusing, but at least now you'll get a bit of exercise 😀

Wow! so much to reply to. hope I don't miss anyone but here goes...

Pregnant? yeah, probably she was my nextdoor neighbour and the whole family moved away very shortly afterwards leaving no forwarding address. still quite a shameful thing for a family in those days I can tell you.

Can a bunny hop be executed no handed on flats? Not sure anyone here will be able to handle the truthful answer but, Yes, a tiny bunny hop can be executed without holding the bars so long as the saddle can be gripped strongly enough between the legs when picking up the rear. Unfortunately it will end up looking less than impressive and much more like a lame bunnyhop-no hander due to only letting go of the bars just before the rear wheel leaves the ground.

kudos100 - Thanks, but Petelance? No that would be arrogance, I'm right though so I feel entitled. Childish? Yeah. I hold my hand up to that accusation whole heartedly and this has been said of me many many times. Petulance though? Nothing here has ever been worthy of getting angry/huffy/bad tempered over.

ads - mibbie yer maw?

Junkyard - honestly? can't believe you've ever "nailed" anything/one ever!

neal - aw, bless.. I hope your mum doesn't come in and catch you typing such strong language at strangers online.

Tom - meeeeoooww!

Oh.. good I see MrTorque is now here to take over. direct any further questions towards him please?

neal - aw, bless.. I hope your mum doesn't come in and catch you typing such strong language at strangers

He he. Is the "pretend they are a child" insult the you best you can manage.

Very poor.

Not totes awsomez at everything you try then.

No no neal. You misunderstand. It's a given everyone here is a middle aged man.

Go faster and stay loose and relaxed

mtbel - Member
"Trolling" is just another new a bullshit concept too Junkyard. I just call a spade a spade. always have. always will.

Good for you and for posting the simple advice - it's a pushing motion not a pull up one. Odd that you get attacked for stating the obvious! Well thinking about it, not odd at all....!

Hang in there!!!

If anyone is trying this at home, please don't use your full pumpage when working out the timing, as again, bad things will happen to you, you bike, and to you again.

A few things... when learning try and find a jump that at the very least, is a bike lengths long and if possible use a hardtail to learn on.

Euro interesting advice, thanks. Can you elaborate on these points?

Beyond the weird dynamics of the usual STW bitchfest, maxtorque's post above with the dude with the green T shirt is the most helpful.

Hooray for maxtorque I say and cobblers to the rest.

I agree with mtbel when he disrespects the heels down/heavy feet philosophy as in my experience it's bobbins (but for coaches teaching novices it kinda gets their body in a suitable riding position so i see why they use terms like this).

I saw Curtis Keene repeating this bobbins in an 'ask the pros' section of a mag yesterday. He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about...

If you have a look at someone doing a "front flip" jump on a bike, just as the back wheel is about the leave the lip, they use there legs with a very fast and hard extension to hurl themselves over the bars! Because the front wheel is in the air, you rotate around your centre of gravity (typically your lower chest/tummy button area).

If you're learning to jump, doing front flips accidentally tends to end badly!

To avoid excessive rotation on leaving the ramp, you need to make sure the forces lifting you into the air are vertically inline with your centre of gravity, and whilst you are learning, it's best not to do anything to sudden, just in case this isn't the case

you need to make sure the forces lifting you into the air are vertically inline with your centre of gravity, and whilst you are learning, it's best not to do anything to sudden, just in case this isn't the case

Rorschach, try this simple test.

Stand in the middle of your front room, upright.

Crouch down, then spring upwards. Assuming you don't smack your head into the ceiling, then you will jump vertically into the air and land vertically. So far so good.

Now repeat this, but just before you spring upwards, topple fowards a bit. At the moment you spring upwards, your centre of gravity is no longer directly above where the force is coming from. Hence you will now jump forwards and rotate a bit.

If you do this whilst learning to jump on a bike, it tends to end badly:

[img] [/img]

Nope....still jibberish.

I saw Curtis Keene repeating this bobbins in an 'ask the pros' section of a mag yesterday. He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about...

So you're saying i'm full of shit?

Perhaps. Or perhaps i've been jumping bikes for so long that i've forgotten what is was like not to know how to jump.

Fact is i know diddly squat about mountain bikes and on a forum like this that's not much fun. I see a thread about jumping and think, 'i know a bit about that, maybe i can join in'. So i do. It usually takes me a post or two to realise it's jumping 101 and as i can't remember when i took that class, i have to bow out. If the bobbins works and gets people doing sweet jumps, then cool.

Jumpingisthe****ingbestest

Of course there's pulling, your arms are under tension. If they weren't you'd be able to manual no-handed. And you can't. Or, another way of looking at it: What would happen if your stem snapped mid-manual?

You might as well say Tug o' War involves no tugging, that it's all about the weight transference.

Oh jesus, why is this so hard to understand. Your arms are just holding onto the bars.

You compress forward with your arms bent and then rapidly shift you weight back over the rear wheel. Your arms then straighten as you have moved you weight back. Because you arms are only so long, once they become straight the weight transfer of hips over the back of the bike pulls the front wheel of the ground.

You are NOT pulling with you arms, they have reached the limit of being straight and the weight transfer and pushing with your feet is what lifts the front wheel.

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/279120/

I think by now everyone understands what has been said and the method by which you pull [ or apply force] is weight transference but you still have to "pull" on the bars or the wheel wont move off the ground.

but you still have to "pull" on the bars or the wheel wont move off the ground.

You are not [u]actively[/u] pulling, your arms have just reached the end of their range of motion.

You are not actively pulling, your arms have just reached the end of their range of motion.

The result of which pulls the bars in the required direction.

Pulling with a straight arm is still pulling.

The result of which pulls the bars in the required direction.

Pulling with a straight arm is still pulling.

The point is when teaching someone to manual or bunny hop it is easier and simpler to not think about pulling the bars towards you and focus of weight transfer.

By all means keep on arguing about what is it means to pull on something, it really helps beginners understand the mechanics of it 😆

Oh jesus, why is Tug o War so hard to understand. Your arms are just holding onto the rope.

You shift you weight back over your heels. Your arms then straighten as you have moved your weight back. Because you arms are only so long, once they become straight the weight transfer of hips over your heels pulls the rope.

You are NOT pulling with you arms, they have reached the limit of being straight and the weight transfer and pushing with your feet is what pulls the rope.

Make sense?

The point is when teaching someone to manual or bunny hop it is easier and simpler to not think about pulling the bars towards you and focus of weight transfer.

So basically, what you are saying, is that you do in fact pull on the bars, but via weight transfer with straight arms.

But it's better for teaching a novice, not to describe it as pulling on the bars in case they do it by bending their arms.

The point is when teaching someone to manual or bunny hop it is easier and simpler to not think about pulling the bars towards you and focus of weight transfer

That is the point. But repeating that pulling = wrong is going to confuse people if they can't imagine how it's done without their arms pulling on the bars.

Actually, it really is as simple as going out, find a jump (smaller the better), and PRACTICE. When I say practice I mean spend an hour. Do it 30 times. Just keep doing it till u have a sense of the dynamics involved. Then find a bigger different jump and repeat. Why think it comes easy? No,it requires PRACTICE. You don't buy it, you PRACTICE. Nothing sadder than blokes on 5k bikes dodging easy jumps. Just put the time in. It's really not that hard. Then start building jumps so we can all enjoy. Ooops someone is going to accuse me of trolling... I know they are... I can feel it...

That is the point. But repeating that pulling = wrong is going to confuse people if they can't imagine how it's done without their arms pulling on the bars.

Not it's not. Most people instinctively pull the bars towards them and don't ever learn how to manual or do proper bunnyhops as the mechanics are counter-intuitive.

Teaching people to forget about pulling and the arms and focusing on the weight shift and the feet overcomes this.

A bit like the trampoline example when learning to jump. Yes you can bunny hop of the lip of a jump , but it is far easier to teach someone simply to push their feet into the transition rather than [u]again[/u] trying to pull the bike upwards.

I bet just about everyone on this thread bar GW, Euro and dean are shit at jumping, bunny hopping and manualling 😆 I'm out, i've had enough arguing with armchair experts for one day.

It's the same as the Snatch in Olympic weight lifting. You think people pick up 200kg with their arms and lift it over head.
Just because they're holding on to the bar.
No. It's a lower body/upper back movement. Extension of the ankle, knee and hip & elevation of the shoulders propel the bar upwards. The arms just connect the body to the object (bar in this case). It's the same when manualing

I found the best way to learn to jump was to practice repeatedly, fall off frequently and persist until it works. (It still doesn't always work).

I've tried to explain how to jump countless times to my friend who's getting into riding and I just can't put it into words. You've just got to get a feel for it through trial and error I think. I started off riding bmx and I guess it's pretty similar to pumping/flowing around a skatepark, just one of those things you'll pick up.

Most people instinctively pull the bars towards them and don't ever learn how to manual or do proper bunnyhops as the mechanics are counter-intuitive.

So you don't actually [i]say[/i] "pull" because they will instinctively "pull" in a different way (by bending their arms)

It's a teaching technique.

It doesn't mean that they aren't pulling on the bars. And to say that they aren't is bollx.

It just means that a teaching technique is being used to get them to pull in the correct way, rather than the way they may feel is more natural.