[Closed] Is there anything that annoys you about the bike industry?

Shitty attitudes to punters on demo days from importers.

I stood around like a spare prick at a wedding at a recent demo day with £2000 burning a hole in my pocket for a new frame. The only guy making any effort at customer relations was the one from Pivot, the rest seemed to be almost autistic in their lack of basic customer service skills.

If they can't be @rsed before I've spunked my wad, what the hell will they be like afterwards?

Shitty attitudes to punters on demo days from importers.

I stood around like a spare prick at a wedding at a recent demo day with £2000 burning a hole in my pocket for a new frame. The only guy making any effort at customer relations was the one from Pivot, the rest seemed to be almost autistic in their lack of basic customer service skills.

If they can't be @rsed before I've spunked my wad, what the hell will they be like afterwards?

2013 stuff should only be available after 01/01/2013, NOT in the summer of 2012.

What annoys me about the bike industry is the daft pricing.

I recently started looking around at bikes after a few years break and was rather shocked at the marked increase in prices. Silly increases!

I dropped into a new shop fairly near me recently. The first bike I looked at was £5300 - a carbon full suspension MTB.

The cheapest bike was still stupidly expensive. I thought, maybe I'm out of touch, but believed £1500 was a lot for a bike and that one should get something pretty damned respectable for this money.

At the bike show last weekend, I looked at a lot of bike porn, but essentially, there has been very little innovation in several years. The products seem to be more refined and pretty, but otherwise about the same.

High prices put non-enthusiasts off before they even get started! Can't be good for business! Better jack the prices by yet another 10%!

The insistence of using cheap shit bearings in very expensive kit. Easton wheels, you are guilty as charged! I like everything else about you though.

The way the industry tries to be innovative for the sake of it rather than making something that works amazing.

The insistence of using cheap shit bearings in very expensive kit.

^ this, many of the high end bikes/kit/wheels/components/forks etc is designed in sunnier or drier climates to be used in such conditions with no thought given to wet weather riding, As an example : I'm sure easton wheels are fantastic when ridden in sunny California but bring them over to this country and you may as well strip them down after every few rides in the mud or rain, since CRC started selling them off dirt cheap we've had more than a few pairs in the shop for new bearings/knackered freehubs and pawls etc - folk don't listen to our advice and if they see something for 50% off they obviously think they're getting a bargain, they should ask themselves why it is 50% off?, Hope may not be the lightest or the fastest pick up but i'll recommend them over every other hub/wheel build going. Simple to repair, fantastic after service and parts are very easy to get for the average punter.

And it's not just wheels, some bearings as fitted to FS linkages are woefully inadequate for our climate and riding conditions, another thing that confounds me is cheap n' nasty headset bearings or BB bearings in expensive carbon or alloy frames....for the love of god why?.

I'm doing myself out of a job i guess but i'd rather see good quality parts fitted as standard, it's annoying for a customer when 6 months after spending their cash on an expensive bike they're told that the headset is knackered and the bb needs to be replaced.

Crap suspension setup tips or just basically poor set up from the factory on bikes just so they pass the car park bounce test. Thus ensuring that the woods are full of people riding under damped pogosticks that could actually be quite dangerous.

The majority of bike shops I've used are helpful and want to help me spend the money in my wallet without being pushy. Too many - and one large one in particular - treat me like I'm a disruption to their working day rather than the reason for their working day. Not unique to this industry; I suppose some people simply shouldn't be in the service industry.

the fact that Shimano STILL use a phillips/flathead screw for High/Low adjustment. Why now just use an allen key headed screw? Multi-tools could be much smaller if they didn't have to have screwdrivers on them..

Standardise on .....stems,bars .... so that upgrading is easier.

WTF?

HG I was referring to standardising on 31.8 bars and stems.

 

Nothing really annoys me about the bike industry. Bigger fish to fry and all that. Some things are worth getting annoyed about, others aren't.

Re: pricing - at the end of the day, the companies that make and sell stuff are in business for the same "business 101" reason that pretty much every business in the world exists, i.e. to make money. We shouldn't begrudge them that fundamental right.

Re: Supply/demand/market creation - again, business 101. And look how many of you are loving having fantastic XTR levels of braking power at SLX price, and clutch mechs on mid range groupsets, plus slick shifting with 10 speed drivetrains. All of this advancement has happened because of the "arms race" between Shimano and SRAM battling for market share at both OEM and aftermarket. And market share is only gained by selling stuff, which in turn requires market "push".

this is great; i've got loads of things to be pissed off about that i hadn't thought of!

snobbery pisses me off. i've finally convinced myself that deore is actually fine. if you're a pro maybe not but for a lot of us...
also aspirational culture. a lot of juicy (and often presumably good, though not always) products dangled infront of us which a lot of us can't afford to be spunking on, though we'd definately like and appreciate the engineering. some developments make obvious sense and probably don't cost more to manufacture than the old style, but are charged at a premium.

If they can't be @rsed before I've spunked my wad...

All the bullshit that goes with it! And too many middle class rich kids thinking they know more about biking than me!! Because they've been misled by all the mags feeding them shit! Like not having a clue about what downhill really is, most kids coming into it now think it manicured smooth trails with jumps that I could ride my bmx on!!!

The insistence of using cheap shit bearings in very expensive kit.

Posh bearings and efficient seals add cost, weight and drag, none of which are qualities that win over journalists in 'ride it a couple of times over a fortnight' group tests.

Also
Trade magazines forever talking about maximising your profit and business efficiency.

I don't know what it is with the biking "community" and the way they seem to be entitled to be involved in the "bike industry". I doubt you'd buy a TV and be as involved in the TV industry in the same manner?!

The bike industry is there to make money. The reason why things don't fit together as one "standard" is to make money.

The reason why so many new things come out so quickly, such as 9 speed to 10 speed and now 11 speed, is, yes, to make money!

And why shouldn't they? The bike industry isn't some kind of not-for-profit charity for our benefit.

Orange boy have you tried Betd in Stoke for mech hangers they may be able to help you out had a few on other bikes. To add to the orange argument I own a 2012 five pro with a few add ons love the bike but have to agree they seem to be milking their customers I am pretty sure about 6 years ago a five pro was about 1700 quid now your looking at 3 grand

From memory I paid £1800 for my old 2006 Pro in the sale, down from £2100. Also from memory a frame only was about £1300 back then and is now £1500 with the maxel option included. Think you need to be looking at Fox/Shimano/etc more then Orange for the price hike.

As for the upgrade cost, who knows what they pay for the parts. Bet it's a bit more then the huge companies. When it comes down to it you don't need to upgrade from standard but you have the option. How many of the other big sellers offer this? Maybe the reason they don't is down to the cost involved?

The fact that it's very difficult to find simple serviceable stuff. I want a steel rigid singlespeed so that I can ride to the pub, try a couple of jumps and drop offs on the way, and then leave it outside and not be completely gutted when some arsehole steals it or messes with it.

Also, I want suspension simple coil suspension with the bare minimum of external adjustability. I also suspension to be provided with some shims so that I can fettle. I like fettling.

snobbery pisses me off.

yep

And why shouldn't they? The bike industry isn't some kind of not-for-profit charity for our benefit.

you work in the industry then?

too many middle class rich kids thinking they know more about biking than me!!

cycling clothes that don't fit cyclists.

And why shouldn't they? The bike industry isn't some kind of not-for-profit charity for our benefit.

you work in the industry then?

Nope. I just ride bikes.

good thread this some valid points.

I want a steel rigid singlespeed so that I can ride to the pub

Check out the Viking fixie range. Cheap, basic and reasonably robust although probably not up to jumps and drop offs.

I want suspension simple coil suspension with the bare minimum of external adjustability

Really not very easy when rider weights vary so much. Cars and motorbikes can do it because the vehicle weighs so much more than the rider/driver.

Over engineered shite and having new standards and kit rammed down my gob.

There have been some good innovations over the last 10 years, decent disk brakes, dropper posts, clutch mechs etc.

The thing is this is overshadowed by: 5 different standards for everything, over expensive products that do sod all and the fact that the cycling industry is the worst sport for "all the gear no idea". All of this is detrimental to decent products that actually work well and last.

When people start realising cycling is similar to any other sport (golf, tennis, etc) in that you can have the same clubs as tiger woods or same raquet as federer, but it isn't going make you play like them.

Practice and coaching are what make the biggest difference, but this does not help the industry sell bikes.

wrecker - Member
too many middle class rich kids thinking they know more about biking than me!!

Just a thought; maybe a lot of them do!
POSTED 51 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Haha, we have our selves a middle class rich kid here ^ 😆

I'll give u an example:
I was down at wharney a few week back, and was told by this little posh kid all armoured up, big bike riding down a smooth track that I needed triple clamp forks on my bike, I told him no I don't and asked him if he liked his riding technical, he said of course I do reet clever, so I said well follow me I have a track for ya to go darn, he even told me there was no other track where I was taking him! Anyhow he was wrong and I took him down a nice tech line... Or at least I thought I did until I looked back and he was pushing down!!! I said, I thought u liked tech and he then went on to blame his tyres and so on...this is a regular thing happening down there..

Yet I go down my local bmx park see lads who look like they haven't too pence to rub together riding knackered up old bikes who can pull backflips and flares out of the bowl who tell me they'd love to try out mountain biking if they could afford one but they don't think they'd be any good!!! Wtf! It's a totally different attitude, there's no bullshit in the bmx industry..

THIS

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/warranty-issue-fisher-bit-of-help-needed

Haha, we have our selves a middle class rich kid here ^

Really not very easy when rider weights vary so much. Cars and motorbikes can do it because the vehicle weighs so much more than the rider/driver.

Seems to me that that's why they provide several different springs.

Actually, I think this is my real pet hate about the industry. Suspension costs an absolute fortune and yet the tolerances that they build springs to is shocking. Peter Verdone reckons that +/- 10% is not uncommon:

http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/bikesuspension.htm

Suspension fluid is another pet peeve of mine. Companies seem to enjoy overcharging when compared to motorcycle manufacturers. I've taken Peter Verdone's advice and started using Silkoline as this allows me to tune the damping and maintain it's characteristics if I don't happen to have access to the specific fluid for rockshox, fox, or manitou.

BruceWee - Member

Suspension costs an absolute fortune and yet the tolerances that they build springs to is shocking. Peter Verdone reckons that +/- 10% is not

Sicklines had something on that a while back, found most of them about 7-12 lbs off. Not massive, percentage wise.

http://www.sicklines.com/tech/spring-rate-printed-vs-measured-ratings/

FuzzyWuzzy - Member

Spec'ing Avid Elixir brakes on 99% of bikes under £3k - wtf everyone hates them so stop spec'ing them!

Just speclist bingo- Carrera used to use Tektro on mostof theirs, and the Auriga Pros were ace. Shimano copies, basically. When they downgraded them to Juicies, every review the next year drew attention to the "upgrade". as a positive thing, and every buyer comment I saw online also thought it was an upgrade.

Spec'ing Avid Elixir brakes on 99% of bikes under £3k - wtf everyone hates them so stop spec'ing them

Really pleased with mine. but i don't have the basic oem models.

Must agree with the top spec rear mech and cheap everything else.

But the industry is there to make money 🙁

Like not having a clue about what downhill really is, most kids coming into it now think it manicured smooth trails with jumps that I could ride my bmx on!!!

That really annoys me too. [b]Real Downhill[/b] is riding with a 54t setup and Tioga Disc Drive down Mammoth Mounatin.

Yet I go down my local bmx park see lads who look like they haven't too pence to rub together riding knackered up old bikes who can pull backflips and flares out of the bowl who tell me they'd love to try out mountain biking if they could afford one but they don't think they'd be any good!!! Wtf! It's a totally different attitude, there's no bullshit in the bmx industry..

I agree 100%. It was the same 12 years ago when I used to BMX and it's the same today. It's almost as though the BMX crowd ride their bikes for fun.

BMX isn't without its rich kids with nice bikes and the latest harreem skinnies/xxl deep v/condom hat preaching how great weed is, who don't actually ride/only bother with cool tricks.

Though the amount of rich riders in mtb (not just DH) with no idea, too concerned with bike setup compared to BMX is far greater.

It's almost as though the BMX crowd ride their bikes for fun.

Bikes for fun? What's that about?

If you thought the bike industry was bad at kit, then I bring you the world of Windsurfing/Kiting.

Every year, without fail, the kit gets changed. Either 1/2mm has been shaved off the rocker or the fin(s) have been placed 1/2mm further forward (or back) or the width of the board has either gone up 1/2mm or down or it's had a new paint job or. or.. the sails have changed colourways.. Every year without fail for the last 15 years or so.
This has led to secondhand boards being worth less than a half eaten Clif Bar despite it's condition.
And since most boards are made of some grade of carbon (have been for years now) the price has skyrocketed to the point they've almost priced out the low/med sector of the market. It's pittyful.

I know Windsurfing/Kiting is image led but change for change sake has ruined this sport/industry.

And to top it all off, there are two factories in Taiwan making all the boards for the Brands, so each knows how much the boards cost to pop out and paint.. and you thought price fixing is only a theory in the second chapter of Economics for Beginners..

Sad, very very sad.

Though the amount of rich riders in mtb (not just DH) with no idea, too concerned with bike setup compared to BMX is far greater.

In my opinion, I would say this is by far the most annoying thing I find with mountain biking. It sounds stupid but with BMX I felt there was a lot more camaraderie and having fun, and much less talk about kit or gear, or what frame or which saddle etc.

Whereas with mountain biking more often than not, you join a new group or meet soem people on the trail and the first thing they do is have a look at your fork and talk about how badly they need xt gearing or how badly they need an extra 20mm of travel etc.. Obviously not all mountain bikers are like this and i'm not painting everyone with the same brush but this is just in my experience going between the two.

Like I said, just my opinion, I don't want to start a war or anything

And why shouldn't they? The bike industry isn't some kind of not-for-profit charity for our benefit.

^^This.

Selling stuff is what keeps manufacturers and people in jobs.

As much as many in the bike industry view it as a bit of a lifestyle choice to do something they enjoy, love doesn't pay the bills......

[url= http://www.cyclesurgery.com/specialized-s-works-epic-29er-xtr-2013/29er/bikes-components-bikewear/fcp-product/45522 ]Specialized uber lightweight full suspension carbon 29er thingy[/url]

You'd need your head seeing to paying this much for a bicycle! And thought £5300 was ridiculous.

In my opinion, I would say this is by far the most annoying thing I find with mountain biking. It sounds stupid but with BMX I felt there was a lot more camaraderie and having fun, and much less talk about kit or gear, or what frame or which saddle etc.

Whereas with mountain biking more often than not, you join a new group or meet soem people on the trail and the first thing they do is have a look at your fork and talk about how badly they need xt gearing or how badly they need an extra 20mm of travel etc.. Obviously not all mountain bikers are like this and i'm not painting everyone with the same brush but this is just in my experience going between the two.

I hear ya!

When I joined here, practically every post was 'look at my new bike/forks/bars...' It appeared to me that mtb was all about what you [i]had[/i] on the bike as opposed to what you [i]did[/i] with it. When I made mention of this, people got defensive and I got called a troll etc.

I'll tell you a little secret. You know the boys at school who knew every football player, result and and goal scorer, but couldn't kick a ball to save themselves? Well most of them ride mountain bikes now they've all grown up 😀

MTB/Road is a notoriously expensive sport, of course it's going to attract the more affluent people...

One reason I've taken to BMX racing is the hilariously cheap gear for sale (including 2nd hand market).

Nearly finished a 21 lb race BMX project - for around £300...

Whereas with mountain biking more often than not, you join a new group or meet soem people on the trail and the first thing they do is have a look at your fork and talk about how badly they need xt gearing or how badly they need an extra 20mm of travel etc.. Obviously not all mountain bikers are like this and i'm not painting everyone with the same brush but this is just in my experience going between the two.

I agree and at the same time have been guilty of this at times! I think everyone likes a bit of a gossip about kit, but when it gets in the way of actually riding then you have to wonder what you are in it for.

I know someone who knows every detail about every bit of new shiny kit and technology, but nothing about how to ride a bike........

My favorite people to ride with are the guys who use the kit as a tool, but couldn't really give a toss about having the latest bit of shiny carbon non sense.

A number of people have turned their noses up at the suggestion of going on a skills course with me, but will happily spend a few hundred quid on the latest bit of xtr.

The thing is, this mentality is great for the industry, so why change?

What's all this stuff about people having new kit and standards rammed down their throat? Do you have door to door salesmen pestering you about replacing your forks with tapered steerer ones or something?

It's no more rammed down your throat than a new phone or car or series of "I'm a Celebrity" is. If you're buying, check out the new stuff. If you're not, don't.

It's still bit of a pisser when you want a new frame and then find out your headset, bottom bracket, wheels, dropper post and QRs don't fit.

I love reading about new kit, especially when I'm in the market for some. Does it make it easier or more enjoyable buying a bike? I think not. I'm overloaded with information when all I really want is to spend a day riding half a dozen bikes up and down some hills to find the one I like best. That in itself is much harder than I'd like it to be, with few demo days organised until Spring.

I'm demo'ing a Bandit on Sunday. I can't wait, but I don't think for one minute I'll be able to make any objective comparison to the Five I demo'd 2 weeks ago. It'll be all about which makes me [i]look[/i] a better rider 😉

Usual talking point when I meet other riders is either A ) the colour of the big bike, or B ) the age of the Patriot frame.

[b]kudos100[/b] I'd never pay for a skills course either - what works for me, might not work for the coach. They assume their way is the best way (hence them trying to correct you). A good coach would walk away from the session learning an equal amount (therefore cancel out the 'session cost').

kudos100 I'd never pay for a skills course either - what works for me, might not work for the coach. They assume their way is the best way (hence them trying to correct you). A good coach would walk away from the session learning an equal amount (therefore cancel out the 'session cost').

So what you are saying is you couldn't possibly learn anything from a mtb coach?

I'd jump at the chance to get some input from Neil Donoghue, Nico Vouilloz or Greg Minaar. Each to their own.

Hideously expensive forks that need servicing every few hours. (Fox, obviously)

If I was being 'coached' by someone, I'd hope they entered the session with an attitude they might learn something too - and perhaps there is a better/more efficient method than theirs (and possibly the person they're coaching might show them).

So I'd never [b]pay[/b] for coaching - which is different to not learning anything.

lol at xiphon
"I'd hope they entered the session with an attitude they might learn something too "

Totally hilarious, this sums the average know it all mountain biker for me, totally split my sides at this. Totally perfect, love it, just love it.

I dunno if xiphon is being serious or not, hope not.

Just in case -

[img] [/img]

If this is how you look in the air, you don't need any help, do you 🙄

So what you are saying is you couldn't possibly learn anything from a mtb coach?

I'd jump at the chance to get some input from Neil Donoghue, Nico Vouilloz or Greg Minaar. Each to their own.

I've had coaching from Mr Donoghue, and it's not a case of 'my way is the best way' they show you the fundemental skills (foot position, how to manual, bunnyhop) stuff that you are either doing right or wrong. Rather than 'you need to hip to the left'.... if there is a couple of ways of doing things, they show you both. Improved my riding no end.

The huge mark ups on bicycle gear, be it bikes clothing or whatever. Then using marketing which implies that you are an idiot to justify the high prices.

650b

and what pussywillow said.

But if your foot position is fine, you can manual quite happily and bunnyhop?

If I was being 'coached' by someone, I'd hope they entered the session with an attitude they might learn something too - and perhaps there is a better/more efficient method than theirs (and possibly the person they're coaching might show them).

So I'd never pay for coaching - which is different to not learning anything.

I'd like to think that the best coaches would always be learning from their students and vice versa. This was definitely my experience of having tennis coaching as a kid.

That being said, thinking that I could do things better that guys who have raced downhill at the highest level is probably a bit far fetched.

In most other sports coaching and lessons are part and parcel of learning to play to a decent standard. Tennis, swimming, football, rugby etc. Yes you can do it yourself but it will take 4 times as long.

For some reason, cycling and running are two things that many seem to think that once you have learned how to do them, then that is pretty much the end of the learning process . Most learn to run and ride bikes as kids, but as adults many have some sort of ego problem about asking for help and think that shiny kit will make them a better rider.

As people lap up the new shiny bits that industry spits out every year, we have more and more people with this years must have kit, but less in the way of bike skills.

[i]That being said, thinking that I could do things better that guys who have raced downhill at the highest level is probably a bit far fetched.[/i]

Why is it far fetched? You believe you think there is nothing you could offer someone of that 'level'?

What annoys me about the bike industry? Customers 😉

Really, not much or I wouldn't do it, I certainly don't do it for the money.

Why is it far fetched? You believe you think there is nothing you could offer someone of that 'level'?

Why is it far fetched? You believe you think there is nothing you could offer someone of that 'level'?

No I'm sure there is something I could offer, but when it comes to riding I'm pretty sure they would be able to offer me a lot more.

This is how coaching works 😉

I'm guessing you probably ride to a half decent standard, but try following someone who races elite DH and then tell me about how much you could teach them.

I hear ya!

We need an ex-bmx-now-mtb-refugees-trackworld

I'll tell you a little secret. You know the boys at school who knew every football player, result and and goal scorer, but couldn't kick a ball to save themselves? Well most of them ride mountain bikes now they've all grown up

haha love it, well put.

But try following someone who races elite DH and then tell me about how much you could teach them.

Does that mean they're also 'elite' in all cycle disciplines, and there is absolutely [b]nothing[/b] from the other bikes I/you/whoever ride (road, bmx, trials, etc) they could learn?

In most other sports coaching and lessons are part and parcel of learning to play to a decent standard

Is cycling really that different? I've done loads of sports over the years and coaching has come in all forms: from friends, from peers, from formal coaches. Is cycling any different? Just because a cyclist hasn't paid for formal coaching doesn't mean they aren't still learning new skills. Or have I got rose-tinted spectacles on? 🙂

Xiphon=TJ. Black is white, he thinks.

^^^ 😆

No, black is black, and white is white. No confusion over here...

Just find it quite amusing that people think others can't learn off people - just 'cos they're elite racers...

Hideously expensive forks that need servicing every few hours. (Fox, obviously)

aye to that

No, black is black, and white is white. No confusion over here...

Is you saying that cuz I iz brown?

xiphon - Member

kudos100 I'd never pay for a skills course either - what works for me, might not work for the coach. They assume their way is the best way (hence them trying to correct you).

It's a strange coincidence, isn't it, that people that haven't done a skills course often have misconceptions about how it works.

Is you saying that cuz I iz [s]brown[/s] ginger?

FTFY. 😉

Does that mean they're also 'elite' in all cycle disciplines, and there is absolutely nothing from the other bikes I/you/whoever ride (road, bmx, trials, etc) they could learn?

Jesus man, get over yourself. You are not elite at any form of cycling and I can bet that the likes of Nico vouilloz would probably be better at unicycling than you.

What the hell am I doing? Debating with someone who thinks they can teach Greg Minnar?!? I'm out.......

Why not design a frame to run full outers? a few do it but most don't and end up getting the lugs dremelled on every bike you own. Why on earth would you want to run split outer cabling? Unless you enjoy rubbish shifting and renewing cabling!

Delivery dates. Ordered some tyres from wiggle in December and was told they'd be in stock late December, then January. Now they're saying no known date. Are you telling me continential don't plan production better than that? Not exactly JIT is it!

"Lifetime of the first owner" warranty's that simply put, aren't