Looks like the welsh government are going to put up border posts to turn away english folk!
Ken Skates said for the moment road blocks were being set up to intercept people travelling in order to exercise - which is banned in Wales. Speaking at the Welsh government’s daily press conference, Skates said:
"We’re working very closely with police forces around Wales and in England to try to minimise the instances of irresponsible behaviour.
It’s not just that people are traveling across the border. It’s also that some people are not acting appropriately within Wales and are traveling for exercise when they should not be doing so"
I think by the very nature of the volunteers in MRT they won't refuse to go and rescue people in the current situation, I have a number of friends in a MRT. They are trying to show the potential risks to everyone if a rescue team is needed, that includes the casualty and the MRT and their families.
But don’t try to act as gatekeepers to the hills
I think they're perfectly placed to take that mantle tbh.
must admit, I’m getting a bit fed up with Mountain Rescue, which is a shame as I’ve always supported them in the past.
I have no problem with them concluding that it’s not safe for their volunteers to carry out rescues at the current time. By all means put out a statement to the effect that there will be no mountain rescue cover. But don’t try to act as gatekeepers to the hills. It not what they were set up for. In fact, it seems to be the opposite.
I understand this position and have had similar thoughts myself at moments, but they are in a very difficult position. They won't want to stop rescuing people and potentially have a death on their conscience, but they would surely prefer not to be doing it at the present time.
Also, I don't know if the MRTs think of themselves as "gatekeepers" (probably not), but there is a tendency for them to be framed as such by posters on social media, etc. Often in a preachy and sanctimonious manner.
I thought that Coniston MRT post was a great piece of writing FWIW.
Mountain Rescue does have a bit of a PR problem when it comes to things like this - they come across as a bit whiney and make it sound like people are forcing them into dangerous situations. They are volunteers and should be heralded for doing it but they make me feel as if I would do anything else other than call for their help, which I’m sure is not their intention.
but they make me feel as if I would do anything else other than call for their help
Good. They want you to try and act in ways that actively avoids you having to call them out. A lot of their communication is to try and help people avoid needing to call them out. Accident avoidance is more effective than post accident assistance.
Fair points. I wasn’t specifically reacting to that post, just a range of communications from Mountain Rescue in England and Scotland. I’d agree that they (like all of us) are in a difficult position and I do have sympathy with that position. I just think that an organisation set up to facilitate access to the mountains is on tricky ground when they start trying to persuade people not to do something that their elected government has told them they can do.
but they make me feel as if I would do anything else other than call for their help
Good. They want you to try and act in ways that actively avoids you having to call them out. A lot of their communication is to try and help people avoid needing to call them out. Accident avoidance is more effective than post accident assistance.
Wrong. I don't act in foolish ways, I am perfectly competent and responsible in the mountains but accidents happen. To create a climate where people are afraid to call for help is definitely not their intention and they fail in their communication if they do so, which was the point of my post.
I just think that an organisation set up to facilitate access to the mountains is on tricky ground when they start trying to persuade people not to do something that their elected government has told them they can do.
That's not what they have been set up for.
I don’t act in foolish ways, I am perfectly competent and responsible in the mountains but accidents happen.
If you head out to the mountains right now, then you are acting in a foolish way. Accidents happen. Give the volunteers a little help by listening to them.
I don’t act in foolish ways, I am perfectly competent and responsible in the mountains but accidents happen.
If you head out to the mountains right now, then you are acting in a foolish way. Accidents happen. Give the volunteers a little help by listening to them.
Again, I didn't say I was going to do that, merely commenting on their PR and the possible long term effects it has on mountain users.
I can easily imagine a scenario where someone breaks an ankle and sits around for an hour dithering about calling MR because they're afraid they'll be cross when they get there because of all the hectoring that they've read during times like this and end up losing a foot.
It's not difficult to communicate to the public, some MR teams just need to take more care.
Again, I didn’t say I was going to do that, merely commenting on their PR.
The PR that explains why they’d rather you don’t head out to the mountains right now?
It’s not difficult to communicate to the public, some MR teams just need to take more care.
More care won’t get you that air ambulance staff that are currently redeployed.
If you head out to the mountains right now, then you are acting in a foolish way. Accidents happen. Give the volunteers a little help by listening to them.
+1
Also help ourselves by listening to them explain why they currently could (and easily) be overwhelmed, which by default puts us at greater risk should we require a team/air-ambulance that is currently reduced/elsewhere-deployed etc. This just puts ourself and rescuers - and down the line etc.. at further risk. So think twice, thrice etc before heading out to those places...
(Is what I got from it)
I'm just going to ride to my ride, ride the ride and ride home.
Should give me 230 miles - enough for a few days so I don't have to go out again
Nobody else from the club wants to come with me, so thats social distancing sorted.
Riding sports(motor)bikes at speed through the Dales must count as exercise from what I've seen today.
Riding sports(motor)bikes at speed through the Dales must count as exercise from what I’ve seen today.
Completely unrelated now. The MCN and other groups asked Downing street if they/we were allowed to go out riding motorbikes and the answer was yes.
Woburn was very busy today, including police van at trail head 1 group of 7lads riding bikes & 2 other big groups of young lads & lasses
jam bo
On local news this evening the head of Dartmoor park rangers advised that car parks were pretty rammed.
As with everywhere, there will be honeypot car parks, but without too much effort I saw two cars in the car park and one other person In the far distance while I was out running.
I'm gonna be controversial and suggest that busy car parks aren't necessarily a very big risk anyway.
Its tricky, I get where mountain rescue are coming from and simialrly the RNLI for the coast, but I dont' think this is a 'couple more months' thing, the way the govt is handling it it is going to be a year plus of being in and out of lockdown so a simple "don't come" won't work for the duration.
Not sure how you phrase it in a press release but it really is going to come down to 'don't be a dick'
Following the Welsh approach and maintaing the 'stay local, avoid using car, definitely dont for long journeys.' combined with keeping carparks closed is probably the answer. Wildly stereotyping but i reckon if you live within a walk/cycle of a rsikier piece of terrain i think you are more likely to treat it with the respect it deserves
n.b I don't go up mountains, so just an observation from the outside in that respect.
I’m gonna be controversial and suggest that busy car parks aren’t necessarily a very big risk anyway.
Make a better tv report than open moorland with no one visible...
Read through the last couple of pages, some points worth noting, others not. I'll throw this into the mix in answer to a question a couple of pages back.
I had a bivi six days ago.
Walked 45 minutes from my door at sunset. Laid out my sleeping bag in local woodland, had a kip, got up at dawn and walked home.
No people encountered on either leg, and I picked up a load of litter on the return leg.
Discuss.
I had a bivi six days ago.
Walked 45 minutes from my door at sunset. Laid out my sleeping bag in local woodland, had a kip, got up at dawn and walked home.
No people encountered on either leg,
Technically, not a problem. However, it would be if "everyone" did the same thing.
I too have lots of potential bivvy spots only minutes away. So far, I've demurred. However, when I see what other folk are doing I'm aware of the fact that any additional risk to me, or anyone else, is infinitesimally small.
From the RAC "Overnight stays outside the home aren’t currently permitted." Not checked the legal status of this.
I have issue with the nimby statements coming out of both peaks and lakes national parks given the revisions regarding travel to excercise. Seems to be great at riling locals into belief that the hills are for them. Mrt have rather stupidly got themselves pulled in, a simple sentence or too about the reduced coverage sold in a positive light of steps to take to be safer would be far better. The parks need to accept that ouside social distancing is the new norm and safer than inside. The honey spot car park how different to your local supermarket. The argument its rife here youd be stupid to come here is also daft id be travelling from the midlands just as bad, but im not visiting your shops, care homes or hospitals. I literally need nothing but the fells and moors. These organisations and nimbys are gonna have a right problem with their stated position of its not safe yet. Please if theirs no vacine their is no binay measure of safe only managed risk. If they fail to act responsible and welcome social distance now when their non essential shops are shut IE theirs little to offer anyone wanting to walk round ambleside, keswick, Bakewell. once we get to next stage and most shops open they will truly swamped with hordes of tourists and have made no incremental steps to develop their social plans.
So disappointed in the nimby mob rule all this is creating, dosent make we want to make any effort to support their business in the future.
From the RAC “Overnight stays outside the home aren’t currently permitted.” Not checked the legal status of this.
Apparently, angling organisations are saying it's OK.
I had a bivi six days ago.
Walked 45 minutes from my door at sunset. Laid out my sleeping bag in local woodland, had a kip, got up at dawn and walked home.
No people encountered on either leg,
Technically, not a problem. However, it would be if “everyone” did the same thing.
I too have lots of potential bivvy spots only minutes away. So far, I’ve demurred. However, when I see what other folk are doing I’m aware of the fact that any additional risk to me, or anyone else, is infinitesimally small.
Cheers it was me wot asked the question...I'm of the same mind (infinitesimally small risk), and technically was illegal already before the lockdown, so no real change from that point of view.
Might try to get out at half term if the weather, and my nerve, hold.
Wilko mate, you need to use paragraphs.
But I hear what you're saying, the fear and anxiety has been palpable in some of the noises coming out of the Peak & Lakes. Some of that noise is justifiable and some probably less so.
I do suspect the tune might suddenly change if tourist businesses are allowed to open again.
However, it would be if “everyone” did the same thing.
This is the principle I was following for not driving to ride, however, if everyone who normally did bivvying did the same thing, would it still be a problem?
if everyone who normally did bivvying did the same thing, would it still be a problem?
Hardly likely. There's not many folk like sleeping in ditches, but it might be then hard to argue that folk shouldn't rock up in a camper/motorhome, or drive somewhere and pitch a tent.
I think there are a couple of things some of you are missing.
If a lot of visitors go to a honeypot destination for sure it is no more risk to you than going to the supermarket - but it is for those who live there and its an unneeded risk whereas food shopping is something that is essential
The other thing is while an individual doing something may not be a risk you MUST consider what would happen if everyone does the same thing.
Jeepers - I am glad I live in Scotland where our government is not doing things that will inevitably lead to a second wave of infections.
I am glad I live in Scotland where our government is not doing things that will inevitably lead to a second wave of infections.
Hmm. B&Q, garden centres, takeaways..
Are garden centres open here ?
B&Q and chippy etc all been open for around 3 weeks plus with no reported spikes..
Hardly likely. There’s not many folk like sleeping in ditches, but it might be then hard to argue that folk shouldn’t rock up in a camper/motorhome, or drive somewhere and pitch a tent.
Yeah that's the point I was trying to make, perhaps poorly. It's a minority sport and unlikely to be a problem, even if all the bivi enthusiasts did it on the same night.
Already seeing more motorhomes out and about. I guess some people genuinely live in them - but I suspect a few reckon they can chance it now.
Scotroutes - garden centres have not been opened in Scotland yet have they? B&Q are only supposed to be open for essential maintenence stuff not DIY projects but I have no idea how that is working or supposed to work. I know tradesmen who cannot get materials
Folk in scotland are still not allowed non essential travel nor are we being forced back to work or school yet.
Its a balancing act and I am certainly more confident in what comes out of holyrood than westminster
There are garden centres doing click and collect.
^^^ all the main ones here, Dobbies etc, still fully shut. Some of the smaller ones doing deliveries of web orders and a few click and collect. Not sure how that ties in with essential travel...
Quite.
Though we are wandering off topic again.
I think the MRT thing is more about highlighting the risk in more remote areas. Less of an issue in my local NP, the New Forest. But I won't be visiting there anyway, as it's no better than my local area and full of unwelcoming bastards at the best of times.
I think I might consider a drive to the Purbecks next week for a change of scenery. Won't visit any villages, just a few laps of the ridge, likely to avoid the busiest bits at corfe and old harry. For me, that minimises the risk enough for it to seem reasonable.
Jeepers – I am glad I live in Scotland where our government is not doing things that will inevitably lead to a second wave of infections.
Just out of interest, how long are you prepared to stay locked down for? What level of suppression do you think is required not to have a second wave when we lift the restrictions? Or are you holding out for a vaccine?
I'm missing the fells, hell I can see them from my house but now's not the time.
I’m sorry, I don’t get that second paragraph. They seem to be saying that we should stay out of the hills so that we are not a burden on the NHS. An NHS that has more spare capacity than it has ever had. Our local hospital has some clinical staff working from home at the moment as there is not enough for them to do. There may be another point where the NHS is stressed enough that we need to consider avoiding any “dangerous sports” but that’s not now.
As I said, I do have sympathy with their position, but this is the kind of statement that can come back and bite them e.g. next time someone tries to argue that we should all carry insurance for our “dangerous sports”. Even mountain rescue agree that we place an unnecessary burden on the emergency services (says the Daily Mail).
I think that’s what depresses me most. Organisations and sites like ours that are usually full of stories about the positive, life affirming, life changing, sometimes even life saving benefits of our sports are now full of people saying that our activities aren’t really important. Ok, for me, it is something I can go without so I’ll stick to the spirit and letter of the rules (for now). But I do feel for those who need their fix of the outdoors.
A lockdown may be a necessary evil, but it’s still an evil and it has consequences. Increases in domestic violence, suicides etc. I’m afraid that it’s never been a case of “stay at home and save lives” as lives are lost in both cases. We could spend all day discussing exactly when the costs of a lockdown start to outweigh the benefits. The truth is that we don’t know as there are still too many unknowns with Covid-19. But it’s a legitimate debate and those arguing to maintain stricter controls don’t have any moral superiority in this debate. It’s not lives vs freedom or lives vs the economy it’s lives vs lives.
Given that I don’t know the answers, I’ll leave it to those that spend all day studying the evidence and I’ll follow the rules. Since I live in Scotland that means shorter loops from home for me. But if I lived in England I’d certainly be taking advantage of the new freedoms. And to get back a bit closer to the topic, if the Lakeland fells were special to me then yes, I’d interpret the rules as giving me permission to visit them.
