its not my show, but i think it needs a bit of promoting:
sign the petition, take direct action, collate stats, etc - what ever floats your boat
I have ridden to work pretty much every day since 1984 and have never had a problem with a lorry.
You simply cannot expect the driver to see you if you are in his/her blind spot/s.
I've had plenty of problems with various other motorised road users - buses and taxis notably.
The number of cyclists has increased but sadly some people ride with a breathtaking lack of awareness, zero observation, no signalling etc.
Sorry, but I will not support a ban on HGVs.
Signed ;o)
You should see what the Oz driving test is like-120hrs of lessons!
I'm with Karinofnine - it's not usually HGV's that are the problem, it's cyclists.
I don't agree that HGVs should be banned from towns, but there have been some good initiatives aimed at preventing deaths of people who don't understand the specific issues they present. A lot of HGVs now have little warning notices on the back telling you not to pass them on the left hand side. There have also been training days where car drivers were invited to sit in lorry cabs and get a better idea of what they could see.
Agree with above. You'd be better off educating cyclists as to why sitting to the left of an HGV is a very bad idea.
I'm a cyclist and a driver-some of the things i see cyclist attempt are shocking.
Whilst i agree that 1 death is a death too many.
The education of ALL road users is whats important.
Sorry, but I will not support a ban on HGVs.
had you read it you would realise the petition doesn't suggest this
The measures should create a two-part Safety Standard that is an addition to the LGV license. The safety standard would commit to Best Practice in both driver training and in vehicle specification. This would be achieved by: A) implementing additional driver safety awareness training; and B) recognising that vehicle specification must include suitability of the LGV for the city centre. The combination of both an LGV Safety Certified driver and vehicle, would grant an implicit permit that allows access to city centres during peak hours. Any vehicles or drivers lacking certification would not be permitted access to city centres during peak hours. These measures can be rooted in bigger government strategies - combating obesity, congestion, global warming - while supporting and encourage cycling. Eight people have died, directly as a result of collisions with LGVs, on London streets so far this year. The petition aims to make clear that "share the road" has failed to address the fundamental issue that sharing is not possible when the LGV drivers do not always see the cyclist. Implementing these measures could make the UK one of the most cycle friendly cities in the world.
Yep i agree with elmo, i'm a driver too, and there is a shocking number of people out not just cyclist's but motorist's and pedestrian's who have absolutly no idea have to deal with lorries turning at junction's and roundabout's.
Though implementing what they suggest in the detail won't result in the aim stated in the short version. If anything it's likely to have a minimal affect, given the above mentioned issue that most cyclists killed by HGVs in cities largely have themselves to blame.
regarding the petition i'm just throwing it out to all to consider and respect your views
just as a point of interest i got low loaded by a hgv qualified driver the other day, i was aware of the rear end of hgvs cutting in on a corner during a turn - but did you know that some of the funky ones can steer the rear wheels via a control on the gearstick so that the rear end can actually swing out WIDE in a turn, and some others have the rear end track the front wheels exactly
you learn every day !
given the above mentioned issue that most cyclists killed by HGVs in cities largely have themselves to blame.
except inasmuch as responsibility lies with a driver to conduct the vehicle in a safe manner, which with a 40 tonne behemoth requires awareness of the problem whereas many new cyclists will not have realised they need any training
Awareness of the problem doesn't provide ESP.
I agree it's worth doing something about it, though not convinced by the petition - for a start, surely more/better mirrors would help drivers to tell when somebody is riding in a stupid place, hence helping them fulfil their responsibility.
surely more/better mirrors would help drivers to tell when somebody is riding in a stupid place
exactly what the petition is asking for in (B)
simonfbarnes, you are correct, the wording is RESTRICT HGVs in city centres.
I would not support that either.
You also state: "..whereas many new cyclists will not have realised they need any training"
Shouldn't it be "Many new cyclists have not realised they need to engage their brain before embarking on a journey"?
Sorry, but this lorry-bashing lark makes me very grumpy given the astonishing manner in which many people cycle.
Sorry, but this lorry-bashing lark makes me very grumpy given the astonishing manner in which many people cycle.
well, in that case it makes more sense to exclude all powered vehicles from the urban arena and confine them to places where they can only crash into each other...
hiya Karin, i agree, its gotta involve education of all road / pavement user groups
however with the expanding volume of traffic on Londons small, compact streets, is it right for a vehicle to be in use that cannot safely observe the environment it needs to operate in ?
TBH the all round vision on modern cars such as my Mondeo gives loads of blind spots.
Can't begin to imagine how many blind spots and areas of the vehicle a lorry driver can't see.
Lorry drivers tend to give me more room than the average car driver round here.
If they could stop riding 3 feet off the back of my car when in heavy traffic at 50 on a busy motorway, I'd probably nominate them for a knighthood
Qwerty: Perhap's some of the cyclist's who have unfortuantly been injured or killed should have also observed the environment in which they cycle. I have driven a 44t truck in and around london and it is not a nice or pleasant experience imo mainly due to impatient car driver's, cyclist's and pedestrian's. It still amaze's and infuriate's me the number of people who drive, walk and cycle round the backm of lorries when they are reversing in to side street's or customers premises. 😯
izakimak - i DO agree with you - and surely making it law that HGVs have to be better equiped (eg mirrors & rear camera) to reduce blind spots would make a drivers job easier and reduce the risk of collisions
definately support that, its a step in the right direction.
karinofine, i agree all commuter cyclists should not only pass a test and hold a license but could then pay road tax.
Lorries generally give me stacks of room and I refuse to cut up the inside of a lorry at a junction, I would suggest it's generally the cyclist at fault whether they intend it or not. There's only one time I've been "taken out" by a lorry, a big 44 tonner, and it was attempting to overtake me on a left hand bend at 30mph when it realised traffic was coming the other way - he chose to squash me into the kerb rather than hit the cars coming the other way. He knew i was there, knew he was in the wrong, but didn't want to wait 20 seconds for a straight bit of road to overtake. No amount of teaching stops idiots like that.
i agree all commuter cyclists should not only pass a test and hold a license but could then pay road tax.
this is as maybe BUT you have to consider viable options, this could never be enforced by the police so would be a pointless exercise
any changes have to be achieveable (dat spelt right?)
There are law's that state what mirror's have to be fitted to lorries. However the placement of the mirror's on some lorries can lead to more blindspot's because they block the view behind them, a specific example being volvo fh models which have wide angle mirror's fitted under the normal mirror's.
karinofine, i agree all commuter cyclists should not only pass a test and hold a license but could then pay road tax.
And how do you define a commuter cyclist? What separates them from a cyclist bobbign down to the shops? And considering its usually the kids and people bobbing down to the shops that are the most unpredictable and dangerous to themselves and others, how does enforcing anything against the "serious" road users make any sense?
but the police could see you if there were no lorries.
SOOB, you are Jeremy Clarkson and I claim my £5 😉
That said, making HGVs have more mirrors might be a good idea, it must be horrendous trying to drive around crowded city streets in something huge with a load of blindspots.
Whilst i agree that 1 death is a death too many.
Deadline to sign up by: 01 December 2009 – but don't worry i will remind you !
many thanks to all the above for their comments
most newer hgvs have additional mirrors and reversing cameras,
and some older ones including the one i drive have been retro fitted with wider angle nearside kerb and wide angle rear view mirrors.
I always give cyclists a very wide berth when overtaking and never go near the inside of a hgv when on my bike.
The worst blind spot for most trucks is just behind the N/S front wheel area.
Driver can't see through the door and your just outside the effetive mirror area.
Unless the driver has just overtaken you-i which case i'm sure he'd know you were there a cyclist shouldn't be there.
I have 7 mirrors on my lorry and a camera for the back.........how many more would you need?!
Elmo - EXACTLY -
NS front is where most cyclist fatalities occur
you appear to meet the proposed standard already, i think the general idea is to get poorer equiped vehicles up to your higher standard
The CTC have a campaign running
[url= http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5309 ]STOP SMIDSY[/url]
check it out
x
I rarely have any problems with HGVs, but I am aware of their blind spots and never try and undertake one on the left. Funnily enough, discussion of that subject on here doesn't attract the same Darwin/gene pool comments that other fairly basic errors sometimes do.
I'm sorry, any cyclist killed is one too many but there needs to be more education aimed at riders and drivers so they get to see it from both sides - a lot of the problems cyclists moan about often seem to be down to their own errors and/or selfish and high-handed attitudes.
Banning or restricting vehicles is not the answer imo. And I agree with the comments on blindspots in cars - designers need to think about it. Compared an old shape Passat estate and a new one recently - the new one has higher and smaller windows at the rear and hence wider pillars, it's a huge step in the wrong direction for road safety
The answer is road design IMO - better designed roads that allow equal rights and space for all and are designed with the saafety of all in mind - not the speed of cars!
ASLs are massive improvement in this way for example - you can legally get infront of the truck so the driver can see you when you are on your bike
education is the other strand
personally i feel that with all the traffic calming measures in place they subconciously cause all users to try and 'catch up' on their commute, thereby leading to hasty overtakes and poor decisions. A LGV/HGV?insert large vehicle driver is a Professional driver, they have taken a far more stringent test and generally will have huge amounts of experience compared to the normal car motorist.
The Drivers that scare me on my commute are the dopey commuters in their steamed up cars driving anywhere they like rushing to work and blocking me from pulling in again when their stationary traffic gets changes from park to crawl.
Everyone should take the opportunity to climb into a truck cab and actually see for themselves what is physically possible to see, add in the driver is moving this large vehicle around narrow traffic calmed streets and a cyclist with 'suicidal' tendancies crawling up his nearside could be missed. This doesn't mean i agree they should of missed it but i believe both parties have a part to play, and for what it's worth i don't find large vehicle drivers (except busses) cut me up or take 'risks' when passing me.
Of course the answer is road design - redesign all our roads to separate cycles from motor traffic.
About as likely to happen as anything at all happening as a result of the SMSM petition. It's just another teeny corner of the internet.
FWIW I've had very few incidents with lorries.
It is odd that we dont ask for any kind of compotency test for cyclists as some of us are oblivious to the laws and our own safety.
The other day on a busy dual carriageway (no junction for miles) someone was cycling in the outside lane. I wound my window down to explain they were on the wrong side of the road ans she just started swearing at me.
Many cyclists blind side lorries and undertake them.
Basically the standard of driving of all vehicles by SOME drivers is appalling. WHy pick on lorries? Most cyclists are hardly angels on the roads or paths they cycle on are they?
It doesn't matter how many mirrors and cameras you put on lorries, the driver can still only look in one at a time. Who's to say that by the time he's checked all 8 mirrors and started the manoeuvre that a cyclist hasn't started riding up the inside.
What's needed is better education for ALL road users, in particular new cyclists - it's likely to be less experienced cyclists and women caught up in these accidents because they are naturally less assertive/confident so try to stick to the kerb rather than overtaking on the outside.
just because you've had very few / no incidents with HGVs - that [i]could be[/i] until you do have one and it turns into a serious / fatal collision, so please don't rest on your laurels
the petition is just one tool in a tool box to prevent cyclist fatalities, educating and looking at being able to train the vunerable cyclist groups is another
the petition is [b]not[/b] looking to ban LGV / HGVs, just raise the current standards on essential mirrors / cameras to make them fit for purpose
in an ideal city there would be space for all, unfortunately the reality is we are stuck with the current street dimensions and volume of use - we need to look at [i]achievable[/i] solutions to current problems that are only getting worse
ASLs are great if you make your way to the front prior to the light turning green but can encourage cyclists to become compromised by filtering up the left when the front vehicles intention is to make a left turn and the light turns green prior to the cyclist getting into the box
its not picking on lorries, its identifying the vehicle that is involved in the most cyclist fatalities, which happens to be LGV / HGVs
i agree if cyclists and other road users were to climb into the cab of a LGV / HGV and see the blind spots it would enforce respect for these vehicles
(i'm a bit pissed - i hope this makes sense and isn't waffle :?)
Makes perfect sense and there's certainly no knocking your intentions.
Hi everyone. Time for me to stick my head above the parapet - again.
I just looked back over this thread and see that I haven't said anything about cyclists being tested and licensed so am puzzled that people are agreeing with me...
On the subject of road tax. I have a car which is taxed. When I'm riding my bike, I'm not driving my car. Should I pay road tax for my bike?
simonfbarnes - if no lorries, how do things get to the shops? I work in Central London, how is my lunch going to get there without lorries? How will cycle goodies get to Evans round the corner? Or to Bikefix up the road? What about the desks, computers, carpets for the office? Millions of people live in London too, they need to shop, furnish their homes - all those things have to get to the shops too. Guess how? In lorries.
Ban anything motorised so that inept, imbecilic cyclists don't bang into them? Shall we wrap lamp posts in foam too? What about kettles? They make boiling water - someone might stick their hand in it. And perhaps we should all play those non-competitive games where nobody loses, and have stablisers on our bikes.
It's very sad when people die but, sadly, death happens.
Life is dangerous, that's what makes it fun.
qwerty - Memberits not picking on lorries, its identifying the vehicle that is involved in the most cyclist fatalities, which happens to be LGV / HGVs
No - it "happens" to be cycles.
No - it "happens" to be cycles.
true - so work with both groups to avoid their meeting 💡
This subject comes up fairly regularly. As I work for a large distribution company with over 100 44 tonne artics perhaps I ought to try and setup some cyclist v lorry photos showing good and bad positioning. I commute a couple of times a week on mainly main roads heavy with commercial traffic. Generally, the heavies give me plenty of room, and on the otherhand, being a C+E holder, I know when to give them plenty of room too.
I see quite a few cyclists who, imo, put themselves in danger by undertaking at the wrong place.
I cringe when I see them creeping up the inside of trucks waiting to enter a roundabout. When clear the truck will move forward slightly and then sweep leftwards with the driver giving a glance to see where the backend of the trailer is. Once the unit turns, the driver looses his vision down the side. A cyclist below the line of his mirrors is now out of sight. Difficult to describe in print, but as mentioned by Crazy Legs, the driver can only look in one mirror at a time. Many more mirrors will only create more blind spots. Having said that, one death is too many.
There is an out of sight cyclist by the side of the cab door. He was riding faster than the truck so came up the inside. The driver was trying to pass between parked cars and a bollard.
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pennine - the more info the better in my opinion
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