Could i go back 20 years and win the DH World Cup?
That depends, are you getting in the top 10 of the World Cup at the moment?
If not, then I'm going with no. Not least because a V10 wouldn't have the 48t chainring you'd need to pedal down the insanely fast fireroads that often made up large parts of early DH courses!
If you can be arsed, you could check Strava times for world cup downhill courses for "average joes" on modern bikes, and compare them to DH world cup times from 1994...
Edit: this is on the assumption that well-used places in the alps etc might have some routes that haven't changed too much since the old days. I have no idea if this is likely or not.
I smell a Kickstarter project!
Yeah, thinking more of your Cap D'ail style courses than Kamikaze.
Got a pic of Warner here from about 20 years ago for reference of a DH bike of the era ...
[url] https://www.flickr.com/photos/61010628@N08/15369666179/in/set-72157648399133107 [/url]
My dad who is 76 years used to ride a sort of bicycle trials event in the late 1940's/ early 50's. He only told me this recently, laughingly when I went around to show off my new Covert build a few years ago saying 'You would be run out of town for being an alien from outer space if you turned up on that, in my day'.
The bike industry would take the bike and kill you. Where do you think all these new ideas come from? If it wasn't for dead time travellers, we could never have come up with groundbreaking concepts like fractionally bigger wheels, or adding an extra gear.
I think your question isn't far off saying, if I had a 2015 WRC Rally car could I go back in time 20 years, and beat Colin McCrae win the WRC ? And the answer would be a flat no because it's the driver not the car.
lol at Northwind!
Looking at that bike of Warner's and assuming that you're a reasonably handy rider, I'm going to go with a controversial 'yes'
[i]I think your question isn't far off saying, if I had a 2015 WRC Rally car could I go back in time 20 years and win the WRC, and the answer would be a flat no because it's the driver not the car.
[/i]
I'm genuinely not sure. I acknowledge top pro riders are leagues ahead of normal riders, but 8"+ sorted travel either end, disc brakes, slack angles, short stems, grippy tyres etc versus effectively an xc hardtail with a 3" elastomer sprung Rock Shox Judy on the front, skinny tyres, canti brakes etc.
Would make an interesting magazine article.
Stevet1
I'm genuinely not sure. I acknowledge top pro riders are leagues ahead of normal riders, but 8"+ sorted travel either end, disc brakes, slack angles, short stems, grippy tyres etc versus effectively an xc hardtail with a 3" elastomer sprung Rock Shox Judy on the front, skinny tyres, canti brakes etc.
Would make an interesting magazine article.
It's a good question. But first you have to remember how relatively non technical tracks were back then. The perceived advantage of the V10 may be negated by a race down a massive fire road for example.
Even if we imagine you're racing a very technical track, just imagine you'd be going up against a young Palmer or Peat. I think even today, if you challenged these guys to a dh race on those old bikes they'd post some good times. Better than most people.
S we get rob warner and you to race
Sorted
I am going for possibly depending on how fast the OP is but generally, for an average weekend warrior, no
It does sound like exactly the kind of article MBUK used to do.
(they may still, but I wouldn't know)
I think your question isn't far off saying, if I had a 2015 WRC Rally car could I go back in time 20 years, and beat Colin McCrae win the WRC ? And the answer would be a flat no because it's the driver not the car.
The motorsport analogy doesn't work though because the governing body is constantly finding ways to make the cars [s]slower[/s] safer. So a 2015 WRC car could be much faster than it is they just don't let it. Also people have been razzing round forests in cars for an awful long time so a 1995 Impreza is all ready pretty far along the evolution of a rally car.
Downhill on the other hand was still in its infancy.
But it depends on the course, A pretty handy (but far from world class rider) would probably give a world class rider on a 20 year old bike a run for their money down the Fort Bill World Cup course
You could replicate this experiment by grabbing Ratboy and a 2012 Spesh Hardrock against yourself with any half decent DH bike from 2014.
A pretty handy (but far from world class rider) would probably give a world class rider on a 20 year old bike a run for their money down the Fort Bill World Cup course
Absolutely, but that's effectively the opposite to what the OP asked - that's bringing an old bike into the present day. 20 year old tracks catered for 20 year old bikes. I suspect there are some whereby an exceptionally good rider could do well against the pros of the day, but IMO you'd be daft to think anyone remotely average would win on the world stage of yesteryear just by virtue of having a modern bike.
You could replicate this experiment by grabbing Ratboy and a 2012 Spesh Hardrock against yourself with any half decent DH bike from 2014.
Ratboy would beat me everytime!
[i]You could replicate this experiment by grabbing Ratboy and a 2012 Spesh Hardrock against yourself with any half decent DH bike from 2014.
[/i]
Yeah you could but ... another but of controversy coming up... are riders these days not fitter / more skilled having had race experience from an earlier age, being coached by older riders etc etc?
Maybe not on a course from yesteryear, but defo would have a chance on a modern downhill course, providing of course the rider was semi competent (ie not me)
surely the chaps at singletrack could perform a test?
but defo would have a chance on a modern downhill course,
That's common sense, although I still don't think it's as much of a foregone conclusion as some think.
1993 Cap D'ail DH course -
richmtb - MemberThe motorsport analogy doesn't work though because the governing body is constantly finding ways to make the cars slower safer. So a 2015 WRC car could be much faster than it is they just don't let it. Also people have been razzing round forests in cars for an awful long time so a 1995 Impreza is all ready pretty far along the evolution of a rally car.
Downhill on the other hand was still in its infancy.
Yes and no. People have been razing around on bikes for over what, 150 years? So in evolutionary terms a 1995 bike has come an awful long way from yer dandy horse or velocipede. With regards to FIA rules, they are really there to keep a lid on development. Motorsport budgets are vast compared to dh racing, so the regulations stop the cars from being totally deadly, rather than stopping them from being fast.
Todays WRC cars are much faster than rally cars of the mid 90s. Lighter, torque vectoring diffs, carbon breaks, composite construction, to say nothing of the engines and their power delivery. So, not a bad analogy imo 😀
You'd up against John Tomac in a skin suit.
No, you wouldn't.
I don't think that the Cap D'ail course was typical
I watched the 1994 downhill world championship and it didn't look that difficult. Infact in this video it looks less technical than say the North Face trail in Grizedale
So I recon you'd be gutted to have wasted your time machine on a V10. A Enduro bike (with a bigger ring) or an even XC bike might be more on the mark
well I wouldn't be too gutted as I'd just go back in time again and buy a different bike...
Todays WRC cars are much faster than rally cars of the mid 90s. Lighter, torque vectoring diffs, carbon breaks, composite construction, to say nothing of the engines and their power delivery. So, not a bad analogy imo
Are they? For straight line speed and absolute power we peaked in Group B in 85/86, undoubtedly technology has vastly improved, but the cars are slower now.
Interesting pointless question.
We don't know enough about you though OP. Have you won any races? How many KOMs have you got? Have you even ridden a v10 before?
It's definitely a "maybe" anyway. But probably a "no".
On the rally cars - better compare a Mark 1 or Mark 2 Escort to today's vehicles IMO.
EDIT... The UCI would probably quickly implement a new rule banning wide handlebars and you'd have to cut yours down to 650mm.
...carbon breaks...
So I've heard.
There's no chance. People still podium races on hardtails now, you'd get your arse handed to you.
Well to limit some variables think about going up against Peaty now he's still a top 10/20 WC rider and he will know how to handle the old sketchy bikes so put him on whatever he rode 20yrs ago and you on the v10 on one of the old courses.
I think Peaty would hand out some buttock pie on a silver platter.
looking at that 1993 DH race, a dropper would've made a serious difference even to those bikes
If I had a time machine I'd go back and buy a range of Klein, Marin snd Konas and bring them back in pristine nick to sell at inflated prices to collectors! (I'd keep a bear valley se for myself though).
njee20Are they? For straight line speed and absolute power we peaked in Group B in 85/86, undoubtedly technology has vastly improved, but the cars are slower now.
No debate as to whether todays cars are quicker than the mid 90s. Which is what I stated. Are today's cars quicker than Group B? Debatable. In a straight line, a Group B car would be quicker yes. But that's not rallying. Modern Rally stages are structured to have a lower average speed so generally have less flat out high speed sections,more corners. And on those stages today's cars would be quicker.
(sorry for going ot)
[i]We don't know enough about you though OP. Have you won any races?[/i]
Nope. I've entered 2 races in my life, the second one I was drawn against Steve Peat in a dual eliminator type event down the ice cream run at Rivington. I was on my Orange Vitamin T with Pace forks, he was on a Verlicci derived Kona full sus. He won. By miles. Probably didn't even realise he was racing someone. My onza pedals ejected my feet after the first corner when it starts to get proper rocky. As an aside I swapped to flat pedals from then on and stuck to riding for fun rather than competition. Lets just say for arguments sake a rider who is capable of finishing top third in a local DH race.
[i] How many KOMs have you got? [/i]
Plenty as I award them to myself after beating my riding mates.
[i]Have you even ridden a v10 before?
[/i]No. But lets assume once I had a time machine and a V10 I'd spend a little while getting used to it as opposed to jumping on and heading to the nineties.
[i]There's no chance. People still podium races on hardtails now, you'd get your arse handed to you. [/i]
Are these 1990's xc hardtails with 23" bars, 120mm stems and 3" front suspension with canti brakes and skinny tyres?
[i]Well to limit some variables think about going up against Peaty now he's still a top 10/20 WC rider and he will know how to handle the old sketchy bikes so put him on whatever he rode 20yrs ago and you on the v10 on one of the old courses.
I think Peaty would hand out some buttock pie on a silver platter.
[/i]Yeah, almost certainly. But - he's had 20 years of practise, the sport was still in its infancy 20 years ago with riders not having that wealth of experience.
[i]If I had a time machine I'd go back and buy a range of Klein, Marin snd Konas and bring them back in pristine nick to sell at inflated prices to collectors! (I'd keep a bear valley se for myself though). [/i]
I'd buy a C26, a Klein Adroit and as many White Porcs as I could carry.
Based on that, for you specifically, no chance whatsoever.
WAY TO SMASH SOMEONES DREAMS njee20!!!
[Sets time meachine for date Njee20 was conceived.]
I was hoping you'd just come back to update us, having invented a time machine.
But I suppose even if you had, you still probably couldn't afford a V10 without remortgaging your house.
WAY TO SMASH SOMEONES DREAMS njee20!!![Sets time meachine for date Njee20 was conceived.]
😆 Sorry!
I reckon a pretty handy current racer could have a chance, but not your average rider, no way, they were still top athletes, even not on current bikes.
After inventing the time machine, he could go back in time an bet all his Iill gotten gains on freakish sporting event outcomes, buy Santa Cruz Bicycles and by viture of owning the company gift himself a V10
After inventing the time machine, he could go back in time an bet all his Iill gotten gains on freakish sporting event outcomes
That's a great idea for a film! Would probably need to be a sequel though, with a first part setting the scene a bit.
What odds would the bookies give you on an as-yet-nonexistent football team spanking Man United in the League Cup?
After inventing the time machine, he could go back in time an bet all his Iill gotten gains on freakish sporting event outcomesThat's a great idea for a film! Would probably need to be a sequel though, with a first part setting the scene a bit.
Man that's heavy...
Is something wrong with the earth's gravity in the future?
1994 MSA:
Muddy, wheels on the ground type stuff by current WC standards I'd say...
I don't think a V10 would be much of an advantage there and then, TBH a Bronson or similar #Enduro chariot with a good pair of modern 2.5" general purpose UST tyres would probably be more use...
A really big travel bike like the V10 would be largely pointless, but slack angles and 5-6" of suspension that let a rider carry more speed in and out of blown out, flat corners and over rocks and roots could have a taken a bottom - mid place finishing rider of the day to the podium I reckon...
Don't forget we this was only a couple of years before Palmer and Intense M1's hit downhill and arguably started turning it into what we'd recognise today as "Modern" DH...
Tyres, Brakes and suspension. I think anything vaguely technical you would have a chance at doing well.
BTTF references aside I reckon you're massively underestimating how fit pro riders were BITD. Don't forget they were all racing XC on Saturday and DH on Sunday. I reckon they'd still get the win.
I dunno. I think it would level the playing field pretty well. Still, probably not a win, but close.
I wouldn't want a V10 but something more like a Whyte T129. Tyres would make a huge difference I think they were shit back then I don't know myself as I was 4.
You reckon the difference between a chipper and a world champion of 20 years ago is tyres!?
I definitely think folk are underestimating the riders of yesteryear.
Don't forget they were all racing XC on Saturday and DH on Sunday.
On the same ****ing bike too by the looks of it! Hats off to them, they look pretty fast even on those sketchy rigs. I don't think I'd be going that fast on my modern Enduro in that mudfest to be honest.
So that would be a no for me personally, but I reckon a reasonable amateur racer on a modern enduro rig would beat them on that course. Any of those guys on a modern full-sus rig would have a colossal advantage.
Those 94 bikes look like they have hipster fixie bars.
There must be a track somewhere in the world that the pros raced 20 years ago and we can compare times to?
Maybe it was just me but those 1993 bikes looked like they were making hard work of that 1993 course, they are all over the place. Im not convinced I wouldn't be going similar speeds on a modern day enduro bike on that course, and I'm not very fast at all. Biggest issue would be fitness i reckon...
That said I may be talking out my ass.
The first Megavalanche was in 1995. I think the course has stayed roughly the same as it still starts and ends in the same place, and would give you a good idea as to how pro and amateur times have evolved, if they even timed it back then.
The earliest result I can find on their site is from 2001 when the winning time was 1:04:14, and has come down gradually since then to the winning time in 2013 which was under 40 minutes, and in that year a time of 1:04 wouldn't have got you in the top 300.
I can believe a strong amateur (typically finishes in top 20% of field) would win a race if they could go back in time 20 years with a modern bike.
Watching that video, I wonder why no one thought of long, slack and low bikes back then - it seems obvious now of course. The old klunkers would have probably been more stable than those bikes! I know it looks like they where having pedalling a lot, but it looks like most of them were sat down whilst trying to get around the corners.
Mega times can't be compared. Different levels of snow pack year to year make a massive difference IMHO
njee20 - Member
You reckon the difference between a chipper and a world champion of 20 years ago is tyres!?I definitely think folk are underestimating the riders of yesteryear.
I think those riders had awesome skills but lets face it their bikes were shit! I bet some of the guys here who race enduro and the like would stand a chance.
Well they've been coming down pretty consistently so it doesn't seem to make much difference. The snow only effects the first 5-10 minutes of the race.