Pick a method of transferring force from your hand to the wheel and be a dick about it...
The main drawback of bb7s (the only cable discs I have extensive experience of) is that they don't self adjust for pad wear.
I ride three times a week in all weathers, usually do ~100k and ~2000m of rise and fall per week. Adjustment for wear typically happens every couple of weeks and takes about a minute. I've had probably three night rides in 10 years where the conditions were so bad I was adjusting the pads at the bottom of every trail. I've only replaced jagwire outers when I've badly crashed. I've used them on a number of alpine holidays and I've never boiled them...
I am trying a set of Maura Mt trails because I figured after about 14 years of cables I should give hydro a go again. They're ok. I'm not getting the hour it took to bleed them back. Are they in any way better than the bb7s? Not so far as I can tell. They are different but then they have a different lever and I'm sure a few other aspects of leverage and distance moved are different.
Hydraulics make a lot of sense when you've got an engine and can do funky things with servos and whatnot. On push bikes all you're doing is changing the mechanism for transferring lever action to pad movement.
Also fwiw a set of bb7s with decent cables will probably cost more than I spent on the maguras. They're not as expensive as klampers of course but everyone knows teachers are paid a fortune these days 😉
They’re not as expensive as klampers of course but everyone knows teachers are paid a fortune these days 😉
Klampers are for life, not just for Christmas Del 😘
Thanks for the reply
So no clear answers then 😀
Fwiw I ran Spyres on my road bike and they were OK with careful set up and regular fettling. But they gum up easily, are very sensitive to adjustment, and are not much more powerful than a decent caliper. Hydros are miles better, even if you do get a leaky caliper every now and then.
This is my experience. I replaced a Vagabond with cable discs with a Marin gravel bike with GRX hydros. The GRXs are better in every single way, and have needed no adjustment or even yet a pad change in 2,200 miles. You could feel the difference blind-folded, if you could ride a bike that way!
I ride three times a week in all weathers, usually do ~100k and ~2000m of rise and fall per week. Adjustment for wear typically happens every couple of weeks and takes about a minute.
Fair enough comment, but I ride 10 miles each way to work, every day, over Welsh hills. Adjustment on my old Spyres happened a little more often than you say, probably once every 60 miles or so, and definitely took longer than a minute. ( The inner adjuster needs to be accessed from inside the spokes, needing a very specific length allen key.) Normally no more than a few minutes, but irritating when it's once a week at least, and quite possibly mid-route if on a longer ride. (Did I pack the correct allen key? No? It's going to be a tentative ride home then..)
These are the same arguments that I remember from when discs started arriving on MTBs. There are always people clinging on to dated technology, claiming that it's just as good as a far superior item.
So no clear answers then 😀
Well no, its the opposite. What is clear from this thread is people with cable discs are desperately trying to justify that they are as good as hydraulic discs.
So clearly hydro's are better. I mean what other conclusion can you get from it 😕
These are the same arguments that I remember from when discs started arriving on MTBs. There are always people clinging on to dated technology, claiming that it’s just as good as a far superior item.
Bit of a sweeping generalisation!
Most people on cable discs probably also run hydros on another bike (I know I do).
Cable discs can be 'better' in specific circumstances.
Yes, hydros generally have more outright power, but sometimes power isn't all that you're after.
I have a Vagabond too, and the Spyres have had one pad change in 6000km, and stop me just as well as I need to be stopped. Replacing them with hydros would be a pain as it has Deore gearing and bar-end shifters, so normal road brifters wouldn't work.
as an early adopter of the similar Hope system, I’d argue they’re the worst of both worlds. Only marginally better performance, all the complexity, still rendered totally useless when the cable snaps (which I’ve never had with full hydros!)Possibly the best halfway house is the short lived giant conduct, which have you a short cable length and almost all the benefits of hydro with cheaper brifters.
I’d say exactly the same about hydros though, I.e. yes you’re going to get reliability problems with cheaper ones… run Hope on all my bikes, never had any problems that a bleed wouldn’t sort! To be fair, never had any reliability issues with cables either (bar the aforementioned snapped cable 😂) they just aren’t as good.Tbh I’ve had less reliability issues over the years with cables compared to hydraulics. Good quality cable discs are (surprise surprise) good stoppers.
Problem is most people’s experience of them is of cheaper ones on low end bikes, which funnily enough are a bit shit.
Serviceability in the back of beyond & price are the only things cables have in their favour.
Years back I had BB7s (or are there BB9’s?) on an early 29er mountainbike. Singular Swift. As I had (WTB dirt) drop bars it made life easier to use cables. I was surprised by how good they were. Perhaps the Dia Compe drop levers had more leverage. I liked them.
As others have mentioned far easier to fix in the wild / touring.
Well no, its the opposite. What is clear from this thread is people with cable discs are desperately trying to justify that they are as good as hydraulic discs.
So clearly hydro’s are better. I mean what other conclusion can you get from it 😕
This (as an owner of both, and the cable ones are reasonable quality TRP Spyres with good cables, brifters and pads).
The days of cheap Hy/rd from Taiwan seem to be over. Last time I checked full hydros were very close in price. The full hydros tend to lighter, too. That said, never had a set of brakes that couldn't send me OTB, or lock the real wheel, even vees. In the dry, anyway.
Spyres were a great brake for the price. Hy/rds were superb for the price. Full hydros are great but were a big step up in price. Now that that they are coming down, it's tough to see why you wouldn't go that route. Unless, as mentioned, you are going to be riding a multi day tour in the middle of nowhere. Hydraulic hoses, olives etc aren't a big deal to carry as spares but the fluid....
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">The days of cheap Hy/rd from Taiwan seem to be over. Last time I checked full hydros were very close in price</span>
Maybe for flat bar levers, but hydro road/gravel sti's cost a ****ing fortune.
The days of cheap Hy/rd from Taiwan seem to be over.
Juin tec R1's, mine are a vast improvement over the stores they replaced 3 years ago. Can't vouch for seller though.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134001396608?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=X7eo8MuyTWG&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=OnUUZa7aRnK&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Yes, hydros generally have more outright power, but sometimes power isn’t all that you’re after.
Oh? Where does this extra 'power' come from? 👹
Hydraulic hoses, olives etc aren’t a big deal to carry as spares but the fluid….
In an emergency, fresh water will work fine as long as you keep your speed down and don't overheat them on descents. Probably, cooking oil would work fairly well too.
Braking power is decided by a complex relatioship between pad size; disc size and pad pressure on the disc. There is no difference in cable or hydro discs in this equation.
Cable discs have greater inherent friction tho in the mechanism and also more dead travel in the lever due to having to take up clearances in the mechanism so would either need longer travel at the lever or a harder pull at the lever to create the same pad pressure ( ignoring leverage ratios which can vary with either system)
The property set up bb5s I had had no lack of power.
Cables disadvantages are no self adjusting and its harder to set them up properly. Hydros are a simpler mechanism.
Because of the inherent internal friction in cable discs feel can be poorer as well but that is horribly subjective.
Hydraulic hoses, olives etc aren’t a big deal to carry as spares but the fluid…
Available in most petrol stations if you are on dot fluid. Probably easier to find than a cable
IMO, pads are a bigger factor in performance on a road / commute / flat commute than how the pads contact a rim or disc.
I’m often suprised by how bad OEM cable set ups on new bikes can be and setting them up properly from scratch on my own bikes takes a bit of time.
100% worst I have delt with is on my daughter's bike poor routing plus weak children's hands = no brakes. Re did them and everything works
I run Spyres on my dedicated tourer - specced from the outset, my Ti day bike (used to be called 'Audax' or 'light tourer') and a gravel bike. I run hydros on another gravel bike, 2 mountain bikes, a motor boik and 2 cars...
The hydros are fit and forget in normal use so perfect for the mechanically disinclined.
The Spyres need a little more mechanical sympathy to keep A1 and are a smidge behind hydros in ultimate braking 'power' on drop bar levers. I've had no issue with reliability as I look after my kit - after every ride.
Both benefit from bigger discs and 'better' pads and both avoid wearing your rims out...
I specced Spyres on my tourer as I wanted 9 speed STI's (backed up with downtube or bar end levers) and I didn't want the worst of all worlds, a cable actuated hydraulic wotsit. The tourer is intended for exped/away from easy fettling so needs reliability/parts availability first and foremost.
For the Ti and gravel bikes, I had the Spyres in stock and they work well enough when optimised and looked after. Granted you don't have to do either with hydros but then I didn't/don't have to buy two additional pairs of STI's and calipers.
In that fleet, I've had one incidence of Shimano microleaks which I've fixed by swapping to Hope RX4 calipers.
Well, having witnessed a newbie with poorly adjusted cable brakes nearly kill herself (seriously) when her TRP Spyres “failed”, I’ve resolved to never let them anywhere near one of my bikes*…
Spyres aren’t cheap but require considerable dexterity (or a stupidly long Allen key) to adjust the inner pad so not the sort of running repair you can do on a ride when you notice the performance dropping off.
did they "fail", or were they not adjusted correctly?
you can get great cable disks, and they do have some advantages over hydaulics in some situations.
Ive got them on my Disk trucker, so i could use my existing Brake/shifters, for instance.
They rarely need adjusting, and when they do its easy, and unless they are WAY out, you can use the barrel adjuster while out and about.
I dont need to worry about a hydraulic leak in the bottom end of eastern europe, and having to do a weeks tour with a front brake only.
But in lieu of any specific reasons to have cables. Hydraulics every day.
Fair enough comment, but I ride 10 miles each way to work, every day, over Welsh hills. Adjustment on my old Spyres happened a little more often than you say, probably once every 60 miles or so, and definitely took longer than a minute. ( The inner adjuster needs to be accessed from inside the spokes, needing a very specific length allen key.) Normally no more than a few minutes, but irritating when it’s once a week at least, and quite possibly mid-route if on a longer ride. (Did I pack the correct allen key? No? It’s going to be a tentative ride home then..)
I get that when riding in Wales or longer hilly rides in the Cotswolds, I might be adjusting the Spyres either at the barrel adjuster every 50-75 miles or so or at the caliper / piston every other day. No need for a specific allen key though? I use a std length one in the garage or the multi-tool while out. Pull the lever to close the pads onto the disc lightly to give a bit of resistance / feel what's going on, turn the pad a 1/8 or 1/4 turn in, check the pads meet the disc evenly and that's it.
Interestingly the Spkyes with 180mm rotors on my MTB need far less adjusting. I think it's the pad wear to cable pull ratio difference - the MTB lever pull to caliper motion ratio is less sensitive to the increase in piston travel due to pad wear. They're also imo the equal of the XT 2 pot brakes (160/180) on my other MTB whereas the Spyres aren't a match for a road hydro, they're just 'good enough'.
IIRC adjusting the barrel on Spyres also changes the mechanical advantage as it alters the actuating lever position. This is why they're not fit and forget. A little bit of mechanical sympathy is required and a lot of people don't want/don't have/CBA - for whatever reason.
Hydraulic hoses, olives etc aren’t a big deal to carry as spares but the fluid…
Available in most petrol stations if you are on dot fluid. Probably easier to find than a cable
Mineral oil isn't going to be much more difficult plus as noted can be substituted for many different things. Magura made a whole thing of how versatile HS33's were for touring back in the day.
The problem is more this mindset that unless its in a branded bike specific bottle at half the amount and twice the price it can't be as good. See also fork oil, truck wash and (I suspect because it looks a lot like lapping paste to me) grip paste.
That's not to say I don't totally buy the convenience argument. I'd rather be bodging in a spare gear cable at the top of a Himalayan pass with an incoming weather front than trying to bleed anything that needs a syringe or messing about with grub screws that can be lost. In fact that describes me most days tbh.
I get that when riding in Wales or longer hilly rides in the Cotswolds, I might be adjusting the Spyres either at the barrel adjuster every 50-75 miles or so or at the caliper / piston every other day. No need for a specific allen key though? I use a std length one in the garage or the multi-tool while out. Pull the lever to close the pads onto the disc lightly to give a bit of resistance / feel what’s going on, turn the pad a 1/8 or 1/4 turn in, check the pads meet the disc evenly and that’s it.
True, but none of my many multi tools were easy to use while being held inside the spokes. I preferred to use a specific length allen key. The barrel adjusters on mine were frame mounted and not the best for a bike that experienced wet, gritty conditions a lot.
None of this changes the fact that in almost every description of cable discs are the words 'when set up correctly'......'they work ok'......'faff'.......'adjustment'...
😀
Funny how there's never any mention of 'wandering bite point', 'need bleeding', 'rubbing from new pads' or 'sticking pistons' however?
Added to which of course hydraulics require no setup at all. It's well documented a set of them can just be left in the same room as their target bike and they'll magically attach, shorten the hoses, align to the rotors, and bleed themselves... 😁
None of this changes the fact that in almost every description of cable discs are the words ‘when set up correctly’……’they work ok’……’faff’…….’adjustment’…
It's true. I wasn't going to troll by saying high-functioning cable discs are a mark of a competent mechanic but they are a bit like front mechs and good quality cup + cone hubs. Need some attention to set up right and aren't really needed these days. But I like those things too : )
Funny how there’s never any mention of ‘wandering bite point’,
They need regular adjustment because the bite point changes as they wear. Hydros self adjust. The wandering bite point with hydros seems to largely result from not being properly bled and having air left in the reservoir. Yes, they can be tricky to bleed, but that's basically just something you do once and then they don't need any attention until the next pad change.
Properly set up mechanicals work fine, but all my bikes have hydros. They are just less fuss.
They need regular adjustment because the bite point changes as they wear
Yes, I know, but cable brakes have a bit point that only moves in one direction until you adjust to compensate for wear. Hydros can wander about, not if functioning correctly of course but it does appear to be a problem that affects some brands than others.
Hydraulic hoses, olives etc aren’t a big deal to carry as spares but the fluid…
Available in most petrol stations if you are on dot fluid. Probably easier to find than a cable
Mineral oil isn’t going to be much more difficult plus as noted can be substituted for many different things. Magura made a whole thing of how versatile HS33’s were for touring back in the day.
The problem is more this mindset that unless its in a branded bike specific bottle at half the amount and twice the price it can’t be as good. See also fork oil, truck wash and (I suspect because it looks a lot like lapping paste to me) grip paste.
That’s not to say I don’t totally buy the convenience argument. I’d rather be bodging in a spare gear cable at the top of a Himalayan pass with an incoming weather front than trying to bleed anything that needs a syringe or messing about with grub screws that can be lost. In fact that describes me most days tbh.
Posted 7 hours ago
That's where I was coming from. If there is a petrol station, or source of cooking oil, it isn't the middle of nowhere to me. I certainly wouldn't be putting my fresh water in my brakes.
I can carry everything I need to change a cable in my pocket, including the cable, outer and tool. A bleed kit, fluid etc not so much.
I get the argument that hydros are less faff, but does that mean everyone is running Di2 gears? I find my derailleur needs reasonable frequent adjustments to stay optimally aligned. Is adjusting the brakes that much worse?
Juin tec R1’s, mine are a vast improvement over the stores they replaced 3 years ago. Can’t vouch for seller though.
Hy/rd, last time I looked, were about 170 quid a pair. Plus levers, cables etc, not much change out of 275 quid. I saw some Tiagra hydros in flat mount for just north of 300 quid at the time. So for the difference in price the hydros were much better value.
Weren't e13 doing a hydro mech at one point?
did they “fail”, or were they not adjusted correctly?
On a ride with one small descent followed by a much longer descent, the rider got down the first descent without any bother or mention of brake issues. By the time she needed them at the bottom of the second descent, the pads failed to make contact with either the front or rear rotor (the levers pulled to the bars with no pad contact at all - yes, it was a fairly long, fairly gritty descent)
For THE most safety critical component on a bike, I call that a "failure" and whilst I'm sure a more experienced bike rider with mechanical skills might have been able to adjust the inner pads to get them working "better" before the start of the second descent, this misses the point entirely!
Effectively, Spyres can't be adjusted "in the field" without a very specific tool (ergo: not fit-for-purpose IMO).
I'll admit there's a potential benefit for bike-tourists using cable brakes, but (you'd hope!), bike tourists would carry sufficient tools/spares if they need to be self-sufficient.
Braking power is decided by a complex relationship between pad size; disc size and pad pressure on the disc. There is no difference in cable or hydro discs in this equation.
You been drinking that strong Spanish wine for breakfast or something ???. What about inherent stretch in cables ?. Clearly they cannot exert the same pressure.
Expansion in hydraulic hoses? 😁
What about inherent stretch in cables ?. Clearly they cannot exert the same pressure.
Cable stretch or expansion of hydraulic hoses will give a spongy feel, it won't affect the actual pressure at the pad unless the cables are in really bad condition and are binding badly. With good quality cables, you'll get a firmer lever feel than with hydros IME. I still prefer hydros though.
I've got gevenalle levers and spyre mechanicals with 180mm rotors on my drop bar 29er.
I've got shimano brifters and hope rx4 with 160mm rotors on my gravel bike.
I like them both. There's not a lot to dislike about either.
The spyres are light years ahead of the last mechanical brakes I used - entry level tektros in 2008!
Yes the mechanicals need more regular fettling but it's quick and easy. Hydrosnalso need fettling every now and again and it's a much bigger undertaking.
You been drinking that strong Spanish wine for breakfast or something ???. What about inherent stretch in cables ?. Clearly they cannot exert the same pressure.
It's kinda like those memes where folk correct others confidently but wrongly.
well the cable stretch does mean that not as much pressure can be exerted, but not directly. In order for the cable stretch to be managable, the levers need to move the pads further per mm of lever movement, all other things being equal. Therefore the overall leverage ratio (amount of blade moved vs amount of pad moved) is often "worse" on a cable brake than it is on hydraulics (as if it was the same, the cable stretch would mean the blade is hitting the bar), so for the same amount of finger pressure, less pressure is excerted on the pad.
Movement is greater but pressure is the same
^ That's it, the movement is greater due to some cable outer flex (similar in hydraulic hoses but less felt at the lever) but if the cable brake is set up well the lever pressure applied by the time cable flex is significant is at wheel-locking level. Like any brake zero lever movement after pad contact is a wooden feel and too much flex is spongy. A cable outer can give too much flex but we're back to cable spec and set up standards rather than inherent flaws.
well the cable stretch does mean that not as much pressure can be exerted, but not directly. In order for the cable stretch to be managable, the levers need to move the pads further per mm of lever movement, all other things being equal. Therefore the overall leverage ratio (amount of blade moved vs amount of pad moved) is often “worse” on a cable brake than it is on hydraulics (as if it was the same, the cable stretch would mean the blade is hitting the bar), so for the same amount of finger pressure, less pressure is excerted on the pad.
sciency sounding nonsense. Most cable operated brakes are cheap. They're adequate for commuter bikes. If you buy good quality cable brakes (Avid BB7s, for example), 8" rotors, good quality outer compressionless outer cables, and good quality levers, they will have a very firm lever feel and be just as powerful as most hydros. Top-end vee-brake levers often have adjustable leverage ratios so you can fine tune them to your preference.
I still prefer hydros, but good mechanical brakes are better than poorly set up hydros.
A friend, swayed by the argument of easier maintenance, fitted cable discs to her audax bike for TransCon.
When the brakes failed, she was stuck up the top of a mountain in freezing conditions and heavy rain unable to actually do any repair cos she couldn't even feel her fingers never mind adjust cables and bite point.
Hydro simply wouldn't have failed.
Her bikes now have hydro discs and no further failures.
Always used gear cable inners and brake outers on my cable discs to reduce cable friction, never had a cable fail over many rides which included lots of Lakeland and Pennine descents.
sciency sounding nonsense.
which bit? the bit where the cables stretch more than hydraulics? I think thats fairly proven.
The bit where this means that lever throw for the same amount of pad pressure is further? I think thats also demonstratable with simple physics
Or the bit where excess lever throw means that the levers hit the bars?
You might find it a non-issue if you run your levers far out, or you might find that you still have plenty of power when they're at your natural point. Not debating that. But the fact is that the compression characteristics of cable brakes mean that they can not generate as much pad pressure for the same lever throw, and for some people (I like to run my brakes close to my bars to reduce arm pump, particularly on my dh bike) that means they're less suitable.
I have cable disks on my tourer, they're fine. I used to run bb7s on a trail bike, back in err 2002? They were fine then too. I did a days ride on that very trail bike before flogging it 2 years ago and the brakes were fine. As nice as hydros? no, but decent enough for bimbling about.
