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Maybe SRAM stopped paying them and Shimano were smart enough to know they didn't have to?
weight is mute as it is currently perfectly possible to build a bike below the legal limits.
Now wheel changes, discs are a right faff, the front is fine but the back, fighting chain tension and at the same time trying to get the disc in the caliper. You are not going to make the wheel changes as quick as with current rim brakes.
Even the brake QRs are redundant on many road bikes as 23mm tyres fit through the gap when the QR is closed, the use of wider aero profile rims will make wheel changes even easier.
the only real advantage for disc brakes is that you don't have to wear the rims, which makes alot of sense where carbon is involved.
Simple solution - Dual-ply road tyres run tubeless.
I don't know you but I already like you
Nope! 😀I think you have some punctuation missing there.
I did mean that wheel changes are allowed at most races, ie circuits up to 2 miles (crazy-legs will have to confirm the distance.)
the only real advantage for disc brakes is that you don't have to wear the rims, which makes alot of sense where carbon is involved.
Thing is, rims on posh track wheels aren't any lighter than their road equivalents so I don't see why it will change for road disc rims.
Great now it's going to be even easier to lock out and skid on skinny slick road tyres! 😕
it's about modulation grum, not outright grunt 😉
Most of the folk I race and ride with seem pretty indifferent to the idea of disks, some for, some against. It's not really been a hot topic of conversation. I have 105 brakes on my winter bike/ commuter and come rain or shine, traffic or hills they perform fine, i'm never been worried or scared because of the brakes. I've got sram red on the race bikes and these are even better. But when disks come in as the norm, I won't be sat grumbling into my beer, I'll give them crack, hell, I've bought enough other shine :-)y stuff for the sake of progress. Have these things made me betterer, hmmm, it still seems to be about legs, lungs and commitment to me; but none of them have stopped me having fun, so why not 🙂
I'm not really worried one way or the other for the road bike, but my CX bike would really benefit from a set of good disc's. The inconsistencies of the rim brakes drives me up the wall, in bone dry conditions they're not too bad (apart from the judder/squeal) but in the wet/mud I'm often not sure if I'm ever going to stop.
You seem to be missing a couple of issues (just the most obvious ones) UCI legality, and aero disadvantage.
the uci will allow them sooner or later (that is, if they're not actually banned now).
and yes, i am ignoring the aero-disadvantage - even though i bet it's MASSIVE, probably a bit like trying to pedal a garden shed.
so can you explain why Cervelo went from being paid to use SRAM components to paying to use Shimano? Seems to me that pro road teams are willing to choose performance over money.
no idea, here's a guess though:
they wanted to?
here's another:
they were paid to?
here's another:
they fell out with their SRAM contact - so did it out of spite?
it almost certainly wasn't because road-discs are on their way to a very expensive shiny bike on display in a bike shop near you soonish.
I did mean that wheel changes are allowed at most races, ie circuits up to 2 miles
You mean laps out? I've done races with neutral support on much longer circuits than that. I'm unconvinced about that being most races though - I've certainly never done a race on a circuit that short, and I don't think there are any round here. Maybe you mean most races near you? (Hillingdon?)
and yes, i am ignoring the aero-disadvantage - even though i bet it's MASSIVE, probably a bit like trying to pedal a garden shed.
A straw garden shed? I suspect the difference is at least as big as all sorts of things they spend lots of money on now - for example between an aero and non-aero frame.
I have discs on my Vaya which I ride on the road and trails. It has 40c slicks on it and even with those tyres pulling the front brake going round a bend is scary - the brake is so powerful the wheel can lock without warning. Compared to calliper brakes they have advantages - they don't wear out my rims for example - but I think they need to be made a lot less grabby for use on the road. Great when I take the bike off road though - much better than canti brakes. So discs are good for cross but, from my experience, just unnecessary on the road.
For most roadies, there's almost zero advantage to ... and the latest high tech lycra
That is nonsense. I'm off home in my Pearl Izumi Softshell AmFib tights. It's -2C outside and I know that the windproofing will keep me warm. A significant advance on roubaix tights. I agree with the rest, mind.
Mmmmmm. Wheels. Shiny. Light... must resist 😳
FFS!!!
I started this thread as it's good news.
Mountain biking has in the past been lead by road bikes standards now it's broken free. So why cant we pass a bit back. Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!
ahwiles - Member
so can you explain why Cervelo went from being paid to use SRAM components to paying to use Shimano? Seems to me that pro road teams are willing to choose performance over money.
no idea, here's a guess though:they wanted to?
here's another:
they were paid to?
Yes,they wanted to. You nailed that one on the head.
I had a laugh once when i heard that someone from Shimano queried the shimano chain and cassettes on some pro`s bikes at a big race when they should have been running spam.. only to be either blanked or ushered away with no reply. Cant remember which.
FFS!!!
I started this thread as it's good news.
Mountain biking has in the past been lead by road bikes standards now it's broken free. So why cant we pass a bit back. Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!
I can understand your feelings about discs being better, but bigger picture discs aren't without drawbacks. They do have advantages but they are not perfect. No brake is perfect just about where you compromise.
part of the cervelo test team ethos was to buy kit, it gave them more flexibility, hence Sastre using Rotor cranks. The Sram agreement might have been more flexible than shimano were
I can understand your feelings about discs being better, but bigger picture discs aren't without drawbacks. They do have advantages but they are not perfect. No brake is perfect just about where you compromise.
[/quotePlease name them for the average rider.
Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!
because the (few) disadvantages of standard road brakes aren't surpassed by your (perceived) advantages of disc brakes?
pro roadies, with a few exceptions, weight about 35 kilos*
stopping isn't a big deal, I suspect
Tubby biffers bimbling around and trying to descend too fast against oncoming traffic, on the other hand, ...
*per pair
(yes, I'm a biffer 😳 )
because the (few) disadvantages of standard road brakes aren't surpassed by your (perceived) advantages of disc brakes?
Why do you think it is 'perceived', do you know me! I've been riding and racing road bikes since I was 12 years old, I'm now 31 so that's quite a bit of experience......
Rik - Member
because the (few) disadvantages of standard road brakes aren't surpassed by your (perceived) advantages of disc brakes?
Why do you think it is 'perceived', do you know me! I've been riding and racing road bikes since I was 12 years old, I'm now 31 so that's quite a bit of experience......
you don't know me either, i've been riding and racing road bikes for about 10 years longer than you, what's your point?
🙂
This is good news! The only *possible* arguments against road bikes with discs is that the chassis has to be stronger and therefore heavier in some areas (some of which can be recovered with disc specific bikes) and a slight aero dis-advantage. The weight can be removed from the rim, which is more beneficial, and the aero will not make any significant difference. Being able to shape the seat stays and forks for more aero advantage/comfort, and removing the hasstle of making carbon rims withstand head on big descents, more than makes up for these tiny cons! TT bikes can use rim brakes though, I'll let them.
you don't know me either, i've been riding and racing road bikes for about 10 years longer than you, what's your point?
game,set and match to the fella that draws sheepsies
Come on Jo, that smiley is like proper pulling your counter-punch there… 😉
Please name them for the average rider.
a new bike for a start, remember roadies aren't exactly known for being faddy.
a pain when dealing with punctures.
having to ensure all your wheels are shimmed correctly, and if sharing wheels between a road and tt bike that is going to be a pain.
extra weight, twisting forces on front forks.
a lot of the time, why? yes they offer more power, but more isn't needed most of the time. Road bikes don't need stopping, just slowing down.
then in race situations neutral service becomes impossible. at the moment there are two basic setups, campag 11 and shimano/sram, hubs are 130mm. throw in disc/caliper and unless you get a universal agreement on rotor size and position and caliper position how do ou do it?
aerodynamics are minor but the faster you go the more it matters, read Magura's points on this.
aerodynamics are minor but the faster you go the more it matters, read Magura's points on this.
If it mattered I'm sure it can be factored into a good frame design, i.e. the caliper could shielded from the wind a bit, but I suspect that without the need to have part of the frame close to the tyre, the frame and forks could be more slippery - one of the new aero bikes has seat stays that bulge out from the wheel to smooth the airflow... just a possibility.
The pros outweigh the cons IMO
The pros outweigh the cons IMO
IYO, others might disagree, in the end most people will end up with discs, not because people want it but because it is what will be available
if it makes my bike brake better - bring it on.
I agree that neutral services might be troublesome but fitting other wheels at home?? Why. Am I the only MTBer that has several pairs of wheels that get slung in as the whim/going/puncture takes me. Never bother with any fuss.
I would love a pair on my Cotic X but wil have to make do with some Hope V twins
Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!
Absolute pish.
One thing I love about the road bike is how smooth, silent and maintainance free it is. Not an experience I've EVER enjoyed with disc brakes, even when running well there's always some rub or drag or squeek or something.
Cue all the usual accusations of not looking after them or being a hamfisted buffoon. So what, I don't need to maintain my Ultegra callipers and they're smooth silent and hassle free. If they're underpowered I've never noticed, and trueing a wobbly wheel is easier than bending a buckled rotor back into shape.
Maybe I'm just getting old, discs on road bikes is just the next marketing ploy after electric gears...
Maybe on a cross bike or a winter/training bike...
So discs on your best road bike that only gets taken out in the dry and cosseted with love, pointless really.
Weight is the other big issue even with a conservative road wheel build being 1500g and calipers at 300g a pair for cheap calipers then to get to a nice light weight there'll need to be some serious weight loss for it to be taken seriously.
For wet weather and loaded use I can se the point for my light best bike er no.
Rik, he's got 10 years on you, andhe's an stw stooge and jewellry cowboy,so he wins.
Anyway, hopefully this will make bake manufacturers make wheel changes easier.
Oh and did anyone else's LOLLERCOPTER take off when they saw this?
• Better aerodynamics – disc/rotor and calliper create a lot of drag.
• Braking power. The biggest friction diameter on a wheel is the rim.
I'm not Biting, I have plenty of experience to know I'm not talking shit. Plus nobody has given a decent response against.
.............
This is good news!
For you and a few other biffer mountain bikers to whom road biking is a sideline. Here's some news for you - you're not the majority of road bike riders. Most roadies have never used a disc brake, and aren't so in love with the spurious advantages.
The only *possible* arguments against road bikes with discs is that the chassis has to be stronger and therefore heavier in some areas (some of which can be recovered with disc specific bikes) and a slight aero dis-advantage.
You seem to have forgotten wheel changes and neutral service, cost, lack of compatibility... apart from that the issues you mention are nowhere near as trivial as you imply - do I need to go on proving you've not actually thought it through properly?
There's no reason for wheel changes to be an issue IMO, if mfrs sort that out.
Roadies are happy as mtbers to spaff £££ on the latest kit..I don't think that would be an issue.
Given you can get disc compatible mtb forks @ 500gm no problem I don't think frame/fork weight/strength is an issue.
BUT...the main benefits of disc brakes are in crap weather, so I don't yet see the benefits for (most roadies) racing,, until the weight comes down, and the pros use them, in which case it will be business as usual.
My dad loves to remind me how Mr Campagnolo once said
I make my bikes to go, not to stop
Wether or not it was Mr Campag that said it, I get where he's coming from. Road bikes are built for pure, unadulterated speed. Making them heavier/more complicated/draggier/noisier/more expensive for the few extra nanoseconds you might gain by braking slightly later into a corner just seems utterly pointless.
Re: experience. I'm a podgy amateur who seeks out the nicest/nastiest hills in Scotland and rides them massively cack-handedly, so technically in the demographic that would benefit from/desire hydraulic discs the most, in fact, I even ride Sportives on a team edition bike WITH MATCHING TEAM TOP! And yet I'd still fit electric gears before I fitted discs...
Great thread....ha ha.
compatability has to be a major issue as aracer and Mrmo say.
i have a number of road bikes and swap wheels between them all the time. imagine the hassle of having to shim up all teh different hubs etc (compared to a 10 second wheel change and a quick tweak of the brake)
The hassle that this would cause on the pro circuit isnt even worth thinking about.
Main advantage for pro's (which almost doesnt apply to all the chippers on here) is that the rims dont heat on long descents and therefore no rolled tubs.
Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.
You dont need massive stopping power on road bikes (frankly I find clean pads, clean rims, set up properly are more than adequate for road races / crits)
I make my bikes to go, not to stop
Hmmm...that logic must be right, I mean the fastest cars, like in F1, have rubbish brakes, don't they?
Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.
Cos no one is manufacturing them, so no on can make money out of them.
Roadies are happy as mtbers to spaff £££ on the latest kit..I don't think that would be an issue.
roadies spend money to go faster, not to go slower. Have a look at a lot of roadies brake pads and ask how many years they have got out of them? I remember one rider complaining their rims wore out after 8 years, felt they had been short changed.
the way i see it a nice set of carbon 50mm rims or a set of disc brakes, guess where my money is going.
If a buy a new bike and it has discs on it so be it, but i am not going out to buy a set.
Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.Cos no one is manufacturing them, so no on can make money out of them.
my point being that if the best cyclist of the time tries them out and jizzes himself because they are sooooo much better than rim brakes then why the dead air.
A good idea is a good idea is it not ...or another view was that he just didnt see the benefits (if at all)
mrmo I agree road discs probably hahve little advantage for a clubman's summer/race bike (you did read my post?)
MW Indurain "best cyclist of all time" ❓ even if he was (that's a whole other thread or probably forum) he probably said "yes they work better but they're way too heavy"...shimano et all will get the weight down, now there's the UCI weight limit on bikes that's not even relevant.
It's not about what any "best cyclist of all time" says, it's what will sell, what the market is ready for etc.
i have a number of road bikes and swap wheels between them all the time. imagine the hassle of having to shim up all teh different hubs etc (compared to a 10 second wheel change and a quick tweak of the brake)
Accurately made this should not be an issue at all. I have run two sets of wheels in an MTB without having to reset the brakes, they don't reset the brakes for wheel changes on racing motorcycles. Just needs the hubs and forks machined accurately in the first place instead of using the slotted mounts to take up manufacturing innacuracies
mrmo I agree road discs probably hahve little advantage for a clubman's summer/race bike (you did read my post?)
I read your post, the way i look at it, summer bikes you spend the money on fancy wheels, winter bikes, you look in the parts bin and use whatever crap you having kicking about.
Neither is a very good starting point for upgrading to discs. Note upgrading, new bikes will come with discs i suspect within a few years, but it is going to take a long time for them to become normal, simply because road upgrade scales are a lot longer than mtb ones.