[Closed] How much to build a steel hardtail in UK?

You could always contact on-one?

steve - I think you're missing the point entirely.

...and what you think an attractive retail price would be..?

Since off the peg, about £600-£700? Or thinking about it as its not 853 perhaps £500-£600?

Its true that in my industry (engineering) lots of work that was only economical to have made in china, taiwan, or the ex eastern block is now becoming viable in the UK again. Inflation out there plus more and more unemployed workers here means that this is defo considerable. And its about as patriotic and cool as you can get, I applaud your thoughts.

Talk to these people [url= http://www.eia.co.uk ]Engineering Industry Authority[/url] they can put out a request for tenders amongst lots of talented UK manufacturers. There are lots of auto parts manufacturers (especially exhausts) out there who could easily turn there hand to this - typical UK exhaust manufacturer would have cnc tube bender, tube cutting, welding and C frame presses for tube forming. If you want to talk to me offline I could help you define the right grade steels and I know a bit about welding.

I was wondering if you could make a reasonable margin aiming at a sub £500 price (noting that Bob Jackson for example are still selling new off the peg UK built reynolds road frames for sub £400).

I don't really understand why (with the exception of BJ) UK built frames have leapt in price so much recently assuming that raw tubing costs are a minority of the total costs and that labour costs should have remained relatively stable.

thanks for the encouragement!

It's something I looked into (as well as EU production) at the outset of getting Singular going. The main problems I saw were price and capacity. A one man band is not going to have the time to output a few hundred frames a year, whereas established larger concerns (and there are not many of them) have quite distinct ideas about what they want to be doing and how. Outsourcing production is certainly most easily done in the far east.

That said, starting up a factory of your own with in house builders (there are certainly enough capable people in the UK) to build your/others' designs could be a nice idea - though clearly the size of investment is significantly larger and the process longer.

Would be happy to talk more about it off line, by all means give me a call or an email.

Perhaps in recent years, eg since the advent of the MTB, UK frame builders have seen the potential to earn a decent salary. I remember a C4 documentary in 89 where they talked to the Taylor brothers. They talked about their youth and how they dreamed of an empire of cycle building. Then they realised that it wasn't building bikes that was the problem it was selling the. I assume they were talking about the mid late 60s onwards when the bike had begun to decline. Now of course cycling has made a relative resurgence so to a degree easier to sell nowadays.

I asked about a bespoke Rourke last year Painted in a solid colour with a couple of contrast panels in 625 they quoted £650 F&F.

As stated above the more economical route may be to approach a non-cycle industry fabricator such as exhausts. A couple of years ago I was talking to a lady taxi driver and she told me that a local bespoke exhaust firm had made a complete stainless steel exhaust for something like £200/250 which I was amazed at. If going this route I imagine you'd need to run quite a few iterations/prototypes. (I'll offer my services now as a test rider). Also probably need to read up on the CEN tests that everyone is talking about. There's an article in the new issue of "Wideopen" mag (google the title), with contributions from Cy and Brant.

Very interesting and why do Orange and Cotic charge so much for their Taiwanese steel frames?

100 x 29ers?

Well - here's your basic tubeset - http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/29er-Tubeset-38-X-858-DT.html - they're $78 a time

Bottom bracket - http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/LUGLESS-STD-69MM.html - $4.25

Dropout - http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/DO-W-DISK-BRAKE-and-DERAILEUR-MOUNT.html - $17.50

So that's $100 in hardware per frame, plus vat and duty and carriage, so thats about £85 landed for the bare frame parts.

Mitring everything up? Batch building? Save 16 joints per frame, 3mins per joint, that's 48mins a frame, say 75hrs, or 2 weeks per 100, say.

Then you've got to weld everything up - well... double the joint times? So let's say 4 weeks for that. That'd be about 4 frames a day.

Braze ons. Forgot them. Couple of bottle bosses, cable guides (5), 5mins a time? 35mins a frame - That's another 50hrs I guess- a week and a half?

Face the BBs and disc mounts? Another fifteen minutes a frame - 25hrs - call it a week?

So we're on 8 weeks labour, for a skilled worker - what? £6k, say?, spread across 100 frames is about £60 a frame?

Then you'll need to paint - £25 a time?

You'll need some boxes - £3 a box I'd have thought.

Decals - Fiver a time.

So we're looking at about £180? For something built in quite basic tubing.

You'd have to sell for double that at lest unless you were silly.

Plus the vat.

And you haven't costed in a jig (buy one for about £2500 or make your own).

typical UK exhaust manufacturer would have cnc tube bender, tube cutting, welding and C frame presses for tube forming.

I have no knowledge of exhaust systems other than buying one when mine breaks. But I would guess they are not made out of 0.8mm thick steel.

Anything from 0.8mm to 1.5 but I'm not suggesting they make their bike out of exhaust tube, only using the kit they would have. A mandrel bender is a mandrel bender - its all about the mandrel tool, which your average exhaust outfit would not have, they would have to buy tools if they want to bend it. With a tool at 1-3k and a cnc bending machine at 30k plus, if you have an idle cnc machine, a tool to bend bike frame material isn't such a big investment. (actually there are some cheaper mandrel benders which might suit a bike outfit, I cant remember the name of the company but I'll dig it out.) Anyway I think maybe you would only need bending kit to do the seat and chainstays which is smaller dia. Brant why don't you get involved this is a great idea..

Seat and chainstay bending really isn't the hard bit. I'd say mitring for production assmebly is probably the hardest (as opposed to doing a one-at-a-time fit on a jig, as you would if you were custom buildng a one off).

In Taiwan mitring will often be done by a third party factory - who just take the dimensions off your drawings and provide tubes cut to fit.

curtis do kind of what you want, although a bit more towards the bespoke end, and you can even get them in howies blue (sure to be an opinion divider 🙂 )

http://www.curtisbikes.co.uk/

in terms of cost it looks like they struggle to get their uk made frames much below £700.

Another vote for Brian Rourke, if you could run for a bit more get a Roberts.

My current ride....

[img] [/img]

18bikes?

Thanks Brant

so could you produce the same frame in 725 tube set or nearest Reynolds combination for £250?

I've no experience of pricing with 725. But I would guess it's about twice the price of a basic tube - sort of inline with this Deda set - http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/COM-OVERSIZE-MTB-TUBESET.html - $159.80

So yeah, roughly you're looking at £250ish I guess if you wanted to do it in the UK and you can find someone with the facilities. And I would guess you'd get a bit of a volume discount on some of them bits.

So retail around £599 if you want to make even reasonable margins.

And the market for £599 frames, from an unproven, new, UK source? Not easy!

Then you get the "can you make mine with a Rohloff, in blue, with cable guides under/over,inside/outside... etc...

And fancy bits add money - http://www.bikelugs.com/store/index.php?strWebAction=item_detail&intItemID=138 - another $90 for some sliders, for example...

Thanks again, so leaving VAT to one side a 725 tube UK built hardtail retailing at £499 with a decent profit is not impossible?

I like everything about that Roberts apart from the dogsbollocks mess on the frame.

Thanks again, so leaving VAT to one side a 725 tube UK built hardtail retailing at £499 with a decent profit is not impossible?

Not impossible so long as you're doing it direct.

i like this, it's proper got me thinking, been sat here for a hour now!

using brants figures of £250/unit and 8 weeks/100 units for one skilled worker, if you can sell all you can make then that's 650 units/year which equates to profit of £226850.

now, assuming you want to produce a great product as opposed to simply making money, then you can afford to up the quality (to the best), offer options, get some good marketing, sell them cheaper and still achieve a decent profit. if you offered that then you're meeting china/taiwan etc head on for price and blowing them out the water on quality, flexibility and desirability. i'd say there is a market.

i'd say there is a market

now, assuming you want to produce a great product as opposed to simply making money, then you can afford to up the quality (to the best), offer options, get some good marketing, sell them cheaper and still achieve a decent profit. if you offered that then you're meeting china/taiwan etc head on for price and blowing them out the water on quality, flexibility and desirability. i'd say there is a market.

if only it was THAT easy

How realistic is 650 units a year though I wonder, especially if selling direct and before you've made a name for yourself. The 50% margin on the frames also has to fund sales & marketing and all the other costs - and you'd need a fair chunk of cash up-front as well.

The truth is you could build it for a lot less than Brants figures - those tubes are expensive because they are designed for diy/home builders. The interest and numbers some of you are talking about here means you could consider doing this from the ground up and not buying an airfix kit bike.

"So we're on 8 weeks labour, for a skilled worker - what? £6k,say?"

I'm going to learn how to weld.

I've often flirted with the idea of frame making. I can weld and have some transferable skills, which is a good starting point. Me = www.peterflynnclassiccars.com I'm not sure if the market is really there to create enough of a living. Only a few UK frame builders have survived, a lot IMO has to do with niche, and even if you are good, without that, you may not survive. Solitude produced some lovely frames but, somehow didn't ever have the status, or any where near, as Mather, Yates and Roberts to name a few. He did try off the peg frames too towards the end, can't remember the prices off top of my head. A lovely idea, if it could work without huge risk, personally I'd much prefer to buy a UK made steel frame than a Taiwain one. I will probably go custom myself, at some point.

Clunker, very nice, I was only looking at the Roberts flickr gallery yesterday, I'm sure your frame is on there? A couple of questions please; how do you find the 'horse shoe' rear end, for comfort and compliance/flex, over a traditional full height with two tubes seatstay? Also, did you spec the gemetry, the Dogsbolx even the newer ones, always look a bit old school/roadey around the top tube/head angle (from appearance anyway)?

thanks

Young Dave Riley wrote, "Very interesting and why do Orange and Cotic charge so much for their Taiwanese steel frames? "

With Cotic, you're getting expensive and hard to work tubes, absolutely first class finish, I think still some custom parts for the dropout, maybe, and also a chain protector and hope QR. Still a bit expensive maybe 853 frames are expensive.

With orange, it seems the stickers are very expensive or something 😉

I think the question here is, where does the skilled workforce experienced in welding bikes come from? We have boutique builders but not a lot of frame builders. The bottom line is that if you're going to charge more for a "made in UK" product it needs to be at least as good as the far eastern equivalent- ideally better, but that's a fairly big ask and IMO you're not very likely to get it immediately.

Young Dave Riley wrote, "Very interesting and why do Orange and Cotic charge so much for their Taiwanese steel frames? "

With Cotic, you're getting expensive and hard to work tubes, absolutely first class finish, I think still some custom parts for the dropout, maybe, and also a chain protector and hope QR. Still a bit expensive maybe 853 frames are expensive.

With orange, it seems the stickers are very expensive or something 😉

Norton - if you're serious about this, give me a shout.

Reckon on 1 frame/day as a tops - so 100 days for your 100 batch. brant - your timings are a little on the low side, but depends on tooling/how much of a batch it'd be. For our custom frame, we're working on around 3 working days.

Along with not costing a jig, you've missed all the other tooling. Our TIG setup's cost more than the jig, plus oxy-acetylene, lathe, miller, drill press, hand drills, vices, benches, taps, facing kit and all the hand tools and abrasives.

Maybe Orange prefer to sell whole bikes rather than frames?

air compressor(assuming you're running air tools), fume extraction, paint spray booth, air mask and the list goes on.........

Selling 650 frames a year is not going to be easy. Plus there are a heck of a lot of other costs involved with running a business in addition to just the cost of the frame. Not trying to be a downer, but while such back of a napkin calculations may seem enticing, there is a lot more to it than that.

how much would CEN testing cost?

and liability insurance?

While folks have said there's a market, you've no idea of the size of that market- you need to get an idea of the number of frames sold by, and the growth of, the companies that work similarly to the way that you're planning.
Presumably on-one, cotic, singular, ragley. How they perceive the market at the price point you're looking at.

Maybe think seriously, and honestly about why people would pick your frame over say, a Soul, at the same price- what's your unique selling point?

To me 650 frames sounds like an awful lot...

How much does an 18 Bikes frame go for?

it was me who suggested 650 units/year, this is a maximum based on brants production figures for a one man band (8 weeks/100) it was by no means meant to be any kind of target.

vinnyeh - what's your unique selling point?

doing a bit more research, i think a £599 price tag is to high, just a quick look around the net and you can find british companies selling off the shelf frames made in the far east for considerably less, orange p7 £460, cotic soul £470, singular hummingbird £420.

speaking from a personal viewpoint, i am new to mtb riding and recently purchased a (2nd hand) orange hardtail, i was attracted by the idea of buying british, though i later learnt that orange hardtails are outsourced at least i've got a british connection which, to me, is better than buying 100% non british.

however, if i could purchase a 100% british frame, of comparable quality and in the same ball park price-wise as a british/far east mix then i would gladly do so every time and i think that that has to be the unique selling point - same price and quality but 100% british.

This is a great thread, and a credit to the MTB community.

Are riders prepared to pay a premium for a UK made frame? Or would they spend rather spend an equivalent amount on a Taiwanese frame made of better tubing?

e.g.

Prince Albert (Reynolds 725, Taiwanese made) £280
Norton Frame (Reynolds 725, UK made) £500
Cotic Soul (Reynolds 853, Taiwanese made) £470

I think in a lot of cases, people pay more for the 'name'. A new, small UK manufacturer providing the offer of a certain amount of rareity on their products may be more enticing than saving a hundred quid and buying something thats just landed in a container from the far east.

Build a pretty, long travel, lightweight, decent steel hardtail, maybe with decent slidey droputs and/or the option of a Maxle back end for £500 and I'll have one. I'll have mine in metallic red.

Ta

I've though about this too, the only way I could make it make economic sense (by the time you'd factored in a marketing budget) was to start much, much, smaller.

Learn to build them yourself, then build a few for personal use, see if anyone form the local riding club would be interested in a custom build, wait for word of mouth to spread., build a few roadie frames if needs be to get your name known.

Then once you have a steady stream of frames passing out your door (say 1 a week, working 2 hrs each evening), maybe send one off for CEN testing? Am I right in thinking it doesnt apply to custom builds?

The advantage of that method, your never having to make a big investment with your own money. Buy pillar drill, build a jig from bolted together scrap, buy brazing equipment, use money form the first few frames to buy a lathe to speed up the mitering, build some more, buy tube bending tools and cut the cost of buying pre bent chainstays, build some more, use profit to pay someone to come in and do it full time, retire 🙂

Or win the lottery and start out with a big sum...

Although I would love the idea of a relatively simple British build bike and would probably jump at it if it were under the £500 bracket, I think it would be difficult to make them that cheap. Therefore I do not think a British bike could compete with the Prince Alberts, Pigs or Sandersons head on.

However, I would see an opportunity for a slightly more luxurious boutique mini niche. This is how many American builders started in the 60s and 70s when they could not compete with foreign frames due to the strong dollar and worked for (some of) them. You would then be mainly competing with other handbuilt frame builders rather than the cheap Asian frames.

Another option would be to go into touring and expedition bicycles as prices tend to be a bit higher even when tubes maybe are cheaper since weight is not really an issue (e.g. Thorn frames starting at 400 pounds, Santos 699 Euros). I'm not certain about this, but it seems to me that the margins are still slightly higher in this sector.

I see a problem with start up too. You'd need to get a certain number made and ready to go before the launch. That could be as many as a third of your years capacity. That's a large initial outlay. As nice and patriotic as people are being about the theory in reality patience wears thin quickly.

Starting small and being arogant about being small and people having to wait - Noble cars springs to mind - would certainly create promotion and brand kudos.

If I were thinking about starting frame building, the last thing I'd want to do is start making touring frames etc just because the margins seem a little better - I'd be doing it for the love of making mountain bike frames solely.

Like I said, you need to do something a bit different like Brant has with ragley and the new skool geometry etc (that people obviously thinks is suited to the gnar of the South-East etc too - but thats marketing for you!).

That last comment came out wrong - it implies that Ragleys are only for northerners - I didn't mean it like that!

Marketing is a lot. Something different (29er SS with slot dropouts, boring...) is a lot and above all, its got to be desirable if people are going to pay a premium for it. Yes, its a handbuilt UK frame but its gotta be pretty and make people stand and stare and think to themselves "I want that sooo bad".

There clearly is a market for the really high end stuff

http://demonframeworks.com/

£1200 upwards for a custom steel! Although having seen some in the flesh (as they are just down the road from me) they are very nice indeed...

You could do one of those poll things on the front page...

Either how much would people be prepared to pay or what type of bike would be most popular.

a couple of people have suggested starting with custom builds and expanding (eventually) to production/off the shelf and/or touring frames which of course are already being done. nortons original suggestion was that there might be a niche market for off the peg hardtails, nothing to do with big margins, retirement etc, but as daveyboywonder says, for the love of frame building.

anyway, as much as i am enjoying this thread, i would imagine that both sam and brant have the cost of off-the-peg frame building both at home and abroad tattooed on their brains, so come on guys, in your opinion, is nortons original suggestion possible? a simple yes or no.

if it was possible, why do you think I've not done it?

Thanks to the STW forum for all the comments/advice -

I agree that British built + Reynolds 725 probably isn't enough.British built, Reynolds 725 and available off the peg immediately for £500 is beginning to look more attractive. However, noting how long it took Merlin to sell out of RM Blizzards at a bargain £399, upmarket steel hardtails per se can't be in that much demand, so it's got to be something a bit special combined with British and off the peg.

One of the reasons I've been thinking about this is because I was looking around for a steel s/s frame and there really didn't seem to be much between the one-one/Genesis/voodoo frames at the sub £300 mark and the £1000+ US boutique brands, particularly if you are looking for a light XC type frame

So my thinking so far, two slidy dropout models built as light and zingy as possible:

1.an ultra flexible 29er with rigid forks, loads of mud room and disc friendly guard and rack mounts, useable as a mainsteam MTB or for light touring with different wheels, bars etc

2. a light mainstream 26er designed for a 120mm fork

like Brant has with ragley and the new skool geometry

From what people have said above I guess you might want to contact people with the appropriate tooling.

Maybe Orange prefer to sell whole bikes rather than frames?

i was attracted by the idea of buying british, though i later learnt that orange hardtails are outsourced at least i've got a british connection which, to me, is better than buying 100% non british.

Stu McGroo and others, just because some of the people involved with the bike industry who post on this forum don't think its possible, doesn't mean it isn't.

Is Brant/Cy/Sam or any of our industry friends here the best bike bike designer out there with the best grip on finances, manufacturing and the market? Such that we should take everything he says as gospel? How do we know Brant hasn't got this precise idea up his sleeve and is Pooh Poohing this because its going to walk straight into his niche?

I personally don't think Brant is all of those things, no disrespect but Brant is a relative newcomer to the bike market. Not that his experience doesn't mean anything, just look at the way the blue pig addresses his previous mistakes. I'm not trying to knock it, I've got a 456 and love it, its just I dont think Brants or anyone elses opinion is the end of the story.

I applaud the OP's way of thinking and don't want to knock the guy down or discourage him. I think with a bit of smart, original thought and some big balls it could be possible, for less than the figures bandied about above.

Go for it, I for one am interested and happy to help in any way.

i biult a on-one inbred up from new for 440 pounds...already had the wheels tho

I can't see it myself. The idea that quality will be better just because it's in the UK is way off kilter in my opinion. Taiwan has one of the most competitive economies in the world, and a hell of a lot of experience of building bikes.

I've got an old Nottingham built Raleigh in the shed, and it's not very good. Because it was cheap. Building something in the UK doesn't automatically make it quality.

tron - Member

I can't see it myself. The idea that quality will be better just because it's in the UK is way off kilter in my opinion. Taiwan has one of the most competitive economies in the world, and a hell of a lot of experience of building bikes.

I don't think that is the point, no one has said just because its British its best quality, but we do have the capability to make the best quality bikes if we wanted to. BTW from what I have seen of Taiwanese welding you need to have the cream of British skills to be able to make stuff of as good a quality. That I think is a good thing, we can't have any complacency in this brave new world...

Anyway sod Raleigh, I've got an old Curtis BMX in the attic, and its effing excellent, in fact Curtis are still going strong and doing the same thing they have always done, shit hot quality bike frames.

18's stuff is really nice, I ride a Roberts and would consider a highend frame again. I also like Brant's approach, and like he says do you not think he'd have done it yet?
Sub 500quid frame? Honsetly in a mainstream material I don't think its a go because there's too much competition at that price bracket and 'made in the UK' just won't be enough imo.
Good question though!

i've kinda thought of this as well, but part of me believes there isn't enough profit in it due to the all the other on ones, dialled, ragley, cotic, curtis, sanderson, genesis companies doing a similar thing

Go for it, I for one am interested and happy to help in any way.

If you can make quarter of a mill profit a year, you'd be daft not to. You go for it 😉

Fascinating thread, I have been thinking of making a frame myself for a while. Has anyone dabbled with 15CDV6 yet?

#wanders off to sketch adjustable jig#

Is Brant/Cy/Sam or any of our industry friends here the best bike bike designer out there with the best grip on finances, manufacturing and the market?

Definitely not, just offering some limited experience and thoughts. Perhaps not impossible, but I would think quite difficult. If you think it's feasible, there's only one way to find out.

kempfab - Member

Fascinating thread, I have been thinking of making a frame myself for a while. Has anyone dabbled with 15CDV6 yet?

#wanders off to sketch adjustable jig#

That's smart thinking. Great stuff to make a bike frame out of.

You mean that after years of doing something different from bikes that works because they are build in a country with mountains (aka canadian frame) and pretending they are the must of the bike. Brant as now come with a "new skool geometry" that is very alike what canadian have been doing from years...

Sorry, I've absolutely no idea what that means.

I am just a bit doubtful about butting it, because have no experience of that side? I keep looking wistfully through the rack at work for suitable size tubes though...

Kempfab, I dont know anything about tube butting, is that something you can do?

I am just a bit doubtful about butting it, because have no experience of that side?

Just use a belt sander.

Personally I cant see it being a goer, in the past I've only bought non-Taiwan when its been uber niche (BrooklynMachineWorks) and paid a premium for it but only because of the design and not for a percieved increase in quality.
I dont think you can get much better than Taiwan built nowadays unless your talking expensive custom handbuilt one-offs.
There's no way I'd pay a premium for a UK built frame over a Taiwan equiv, and I doubt the quality would be any better from the UK.

edited to add though that something from T45 could tempt me.

My Bluepig arrived yesterday, Im curious to know (but dont expect an answer) on how Brant can make much money per unit on a £260 retailed frame thats wholesaled through Hotlines/CRC with the amount of tube manipulation on them and unique to Ragley/non catalogue cable guides/dropouts and chainstay 'fingers'. I think he claws a bit back with having Mr Wong paint them with half a potatoe though!

I thought butting was the differing thickness along the length of the tube? I am quite capable of fitting tubes, 15 years experience! I don't know how CDV compares to the Reynolds group tubing, it does not like cold working, but does not require heat treatment, other than stress relieving. And suffers from virtually no shrinkage, but is a bit dear...

Design a bike that you want to ride, find someone with the skills to make it. Start there.

toys19 - Stu McGroo and others, just because some of the people involved with the bike industry who post on this forum don't think its possible, doesn't mean it isn't.

just inviting opinions and looking down all the avenues!

tron - I can't see it myself. The idea that quality will be better just because it's in the UK

totally agree, but then no one has actually said that. while we're on the subject, you haven't got to look to far to find plenty of shit coming from taiwan, china, etc.

RustyNissanPrairie - There's no way I'd pay a premium for a UK over a Taiwan equiv built frame

no one said premium either - same price for comparable product.

thepodge - why so? i bet there are a lot more people employed in the UK through non UK bike brands. do you hold Marin in the same light? a lot of their stuff was designed by UK people

because i'm british and as such i'm still entitled to my own opinions. as for the marin question, yes. order of preference is 1.british built by british business 2.foreign built by a british business 3.british built by foreign business 4.foreign built by foreign business. nationality of designer is irellivant, it's about economies.... "in my opinion"

anyway, i think it's a goer, most likely be a lot of hard work for little monetary reward, but plenty of satisfaction.

because i'm british and as such i'm still entitled to my own opinions. as for the marin question, yes. order of preference is 1.british built by british business 2.foreign built by a british business 3.british built by foreign business 4.foreign built by foreign business. nationality of designer is irellivant, it's about economies.... "in my opinion"

oh great. a BNP bike.

So in summary, other than having a union jack sticker on the tubes - there is nothing to distinguish this frame from anything built cheaper in the far east ... so far it doesn't look good.

oh great. a BNP bike.

I was always slightly worried this could be a reason. I must say that personally I have no great "national pride" in Britain, and have nothing but utter admiration for the work of my factory and contacts in Taiwan.

I wrote the paragraph below, but didn't post last night, because I thought it might be a bit harsh, but perhaps there's an element of truth in it?

It could be a presumption because people have heard from a mate that all frames from "China" are welded by small boys, sat on boxes in a room with a dirt floor, that surely a highly skilled, focused, intellegent Englishman can weld one just as well (or better). So if he can do it, surely my mate Stu who can make roll cages for Ford Escort Mk1's and really nice gates can knock a bike frame up for a the same price of what they can in Taiwan?

My Bluepig arrived yesterday, Im curious to know (but dont expect an answer) on how Brant can make much money per unit on a £260 retailed frame thats wholesaled through Hotlines/CRC

I'm doing OK, but the Blue Pig is just one frame in a range, and that range is just one of the things I do for Hotlines/CRC, so it all adds up for me. I couldn't survive just on selling BluePigs, and Blue Pigs couldn't survive if they were the only product in the range.

with the amount of tube manipulation on them and unique to Ragley/non catalogue cable guides/dropouts and chainstay 'fingers'. I think he claws a bit back with having Mr Wong paint them with half a potatoe though!

The cable guides are actually a catalogue item, but I had to look very hard to find them.

Mr Wong? I think it's a Mrs Chen actually. And I'll let her know that "John Bull" is not happy with her handiwork. If it's awful, send it back and we'll get you a fresh one.

so supporting UK manufacturing is racialist?

also, taiwan ain't china. call someone from Taiwan chinese would really annoy them

I've got one of Mr Wong's frames and I'm very happy with it. I think he lives not too far from Milton Keynes though...