Although I would love the idea of a relatively simple British build bike and would probably jump at it if it were under the £500 bracket, I think it would be difficult to make them that cheap. Therefore I do not think a British bike could compete with the Prince Alberts, Pigs or Sandersons head on.
However, I would see an opportunity for a slightly more luxurious boutique mini niche. This is how many American builders started in the 60s and 70s when they could not compete with foreign frames due to the strong dollar and worked for (some of) them. You would then be mainly competing with other handbuilt frame builders rather than the cheap Asian frames.
Another option would be to go into touring and expedition bicycles as prices tend to be a bit higher even when tubes maybe are cheaper since weight is not really an issue (e.g. Thorn frames starting at 400 pounds, Santos 699 Euros). I'm not certain about this, but it seems to me that the margins are still slightly higher in this sector.
I see a problem with start up too. You'd need to get a certain number made and ready to go before the launch. That could be as many as a third of your years capacity. That's a large initial outlay. As nice and patriotic as people are being about the theory in reality patience wears thin quickly.
Starting small and being arogant about being small and people having to wait - Noble cars springs to mind - would certainly create promotion and brand kudos.
If I were thinking about starting frame building, the last thing I'd want to do is start making touring frames etc just because the margins seem a little better - I'd be doing it for the love of making mountain bike frames solely.
Like I said, you need to do something a bit different like Brant has with ragley and the new skool geometry etc (that people obviously thinks is suited to the gnar of the South-East etc too - but thats marketing for you!).
That last comment came out wrong - it implies that Ragleys are only for northerners - I didn't mean it like that!
Marketing is a lot. Something different (29er SS with slot dropouts, boring...) is a lot and above all, its got to be desirable if people are going to pay a premium for it. Yes, its a handbuilt UK frame but its gotta be pretty and make people stand and stare and think to themselves "I want that sooo bad".
There clearly is a market for the really high end stuff
£1200 upwards for a custom steel! Although having seen some in the flesh (as they are just down the road from me) they are very nice indeed...
You could do one of those poll things on the front page...
Either how much would people be prepared to pay or what type of bike would be most popular.
a couple of people have suggested starting with custom builds and expanding (eventually) to production/off the shelf and/or touring frames which of course are already being done. nortons original suggestion was that there might be a niche market for off the peg hardtails, nothing to do with big margins, retirement etc, but as daveyboywonder says, for the love of frame building.
anyway, as much as i am enjoying this thread, i would imagine that both sam and brant have the cost of off-the-peg frame building both at home and abroad tattooed on their brains, so come on guys, in your opinion, is nortons original suggestion possible? a simple yes or no.
if it was possible, why do you think I've not done it?
Thanks to the STW forum for all the comments/advice -
I agree that British built + Reynolds 725 probably isn't enough.British built, Reynolds 725 and available off the peg immediately for £500 is beginning to look more attractive. However, noting how long it took Merlin to sell out of RM Blizzards at a bargain £399, upmarket steel hardtails per se can't be in that much demand, so it's got to be something a bit special combined with British and off the peg.
One of the reasons I've been thinking about this is because I was looking around for a steel s/s frame and there really didn't seem to be much between the one-one/Genesis/voodoo frames at the sub £300 mark and the £1000+ US boutique brands, particularly if you are looking for a light XC type frame
So my thinking so far, two slidy dropout models built as light and zingy as possible:
1.an ultra flexible 29er with rigid forks, loads of mud room and disc friendly guard and rack mounts, useable as a mainsteam MTB or for light touring with different wheels, bars etc
2. a light mainstream 26er designed for a 120mm fork
like Brant has with ragley and the new skool geometry
ROFLMFAO
You mean that after years of doing something different from bikes that works because they are build in a country with mountains (aka canadian frame) and pretending they are the must of the bike. Brant as now come with a "new skool geometry" that is very alike what canadian have been doing from years...
From what people have said above I guess you might want to contact people with the appropriate tooling.
Inflating your frame price gives you more room to manoeuvre with fill bike buildsMaybe Orange prefer to sell whole bikes rather than frames?
i was attracted by the idea of buying british, though i later learnt that orange hardtails are outsourced at least i've got a british connection which, to me, is better than buying 100% non british.
why so? i bet there are a lot more people employed in the UK through non UK bike brands. do you hold Marin in the same light? a lot of their stuff was designed by UK people
Stu McGroo and others, just because some of the people involved with the bike industry who post on this forum don't think its possible, doesn't mean it isn't.
Is Brant/Cy/Sam or any of our industry friends here the best bike bike designer out there with the best grip on finances, manufacturing and the market? Such that we should take everything he says as gospel? How do we know Brant hasn't got this precise idea up his sleeve and is Pooh Poohing this because its going to walk straight into his niche?
I personally don't think Brant is all of those things, no disrespect but Brant is a relative newcomer to the bike market. Not that his experience doesn't mean anything, just look at the way the blue pig addresses his previous mistakes. I'm not trying to knock it, I've got a 456 and love it, its just I dont think Brants or anyone elses opinion is the end of the story.
I applaud the OP's way of thinking and don't want to knock the guy down or discourage him. I think with a bit of smart, original thought and some big balls it could be possible, for less than the figures bandied about above.
Go for it, I for one am interested and happy to help in any way.
i biult a on-one inbred up from new for 440 pounds...already had the wheels tho
I can't see it myself. The idea that quality will be better just because it's in the UK is way off kilter in my opinion. Taiwan has one of the most competitive economies in the world, and a hell of a lot of experience of building bikes.
I've got an old Nottingham built Raleigh in the shed, and it's not very good. Because it was cheap. Building something in the UK doesn't automatically make it quality.
tron - MemberI can't see it myself. The idea that quality will be better just because it's in the UK is way off kilter in my opinion. Taiwan has one of the most competitive economies in the world, and a hell of a lot of experience of building bikes.
I don't think that is the point, no one has said just because its British its best quality, but we do have the capability to make the best quality bikes if we wanted to. BTW from what I have seen of Taiwanese welding you need to have the cream of British skills to be able to make stuff of as good a quality. That I think is a good thing, we can't have any complacency in this brave new world...
Anyway sod Raleigh, I've got an old Curtis BMX in the attic, and its effing excellent, in fact Curtis are still going strong and doing the same thing they have always done, shit hot quality bike frames.
18's stuff is really nice, I ride a Roberts and would consider a highend frame again. I also like Brant's approach, and like he says do you not think he'd have done it yet?
Sub 500quid frame? Honsetly in a mainstream material I don't think its a go because there's too much competition at that price bracket and 'made in the UK' just won't be enough imo.
Good question though!
i've kinda thought of this as well, but part of me believes there isn't enough profit in it due to the all the other on ones, dialled, ragley, cotic, curtis, sanderson, genesis companies doing a similar thing
Go for it, I for one am interested and happy to help in any way.
If you can make quarter of a mill profit a year, you'd be daft not to. You go for it 😉
Fascinating thread, I have been thinking of making a frame myself for a while. Has anyone dabbled with 15CDV6 yet?
#wanders off to sketch adjustable jig#
Is Brant/Cy/Sam or any of our industry friends here the best bike bike designer out there with the best grip on finances, manufacturing and the market?
Definitely not, just offering some limited experience and thoughts. Perhaps not impossible, but I would think quite difficult. If you think it's feasible, there's only one way to find out.
kempfab - MemberFascinating thread, I have been thinking of making a frame myself for a while. Has anyone dabbled with 15CDV6 yet?
#wanders off to sketch adjustable jig#
That's smart thinking. Great stuff to make a bike frame out of.
You mean that after years of doing something different from bikes that works because they are build in a country with mountains (aka canadian frame) and pretending they are the must of the bike. Brant as now come with a "new skool geometry" that is very alike what canadian have been doing from years...
Sorry, I've absolutely no idea what that means.
I am just a bit doubtful about butting it, because have no experience of that side? I keep looking wistfully through the rack at work for suitable size tubes though...
Kempfab, I dont know anything about tube butting, is that something you can do?
I am just a bit doubtful about butting it, because have no experience of that side?
Just use a belt sander.
Personally I cant see it being a goer, in the past I've only bought non-Taiwan when its been uber niche (BrooklynMachineWorks) and paid a premium for it but only because of the design and not for a percieved increase in quality.
I dont think you can get much better than Taiwan built nowadays unless your talking expensive custom handbuilt one-offs.
There's no way I'd pay a premium for a UK built frame over a Taiwan equiv, and I doubt the quality would be any better from the UK.
edited to add though that something from T45 could tempt me.
My Bluepig arrived yesterday, Im curious to know (but dont expect an answer) on how Brant can make much money per unit on a £260 retailed frame thats wholesaled through Hotlines/CRC with the amount of tube manipulation on them and unique to Ragley/non catalogue cable guides/dropouts and chainstay 'fingers'. I think he claws a bit back with having Mr Wong paint them with half a potatoe though!
I thought butting was the differing thickness along the length of the tube? I am quite capable of fitting tubes, 15 years experience! I don't know how CDV compares to the Reynolds group tubing, it does not like cold working, but does not require heat treatment, other than stress relieving. And suffers from virtually no shrinkage, but is a bit dear...
Design a bike that you want to ride, find someone with the skills to make it. Start there.
toys19 - Stu McGroo and others, just because some of the people involved with the bike industry who post on this forum don't think its possible, doesn't mean it isn't.
just inviting opinions and looking down all the avenues!
tron - I can't see it myself. The idea that quality will be better just because it's in the UK
totally agree, but then no one has actually said that. while we're on the subject, you haven't got to look to far to find plenty of shit coming from taiwan, china, etc.
RustyNissanPrairie - There's no way I'd pay a premium for a UK over a Taiwan equiv built frame
no one said premium either - same price for comparable product.
thepodge - why so? i bet there are a lot more people employed in the UK through non UK bike brands. do you hold Marin in the same light? a lot of their stuff was designed by UK people
because i'm british and as such i'm still entitled to my own opinions. as for the marin question, yes. order of preference is 1.british built by british business 2.foreign built by a british business 3.british built by foreign business 4.foreign built by foreign business. nationality of designer is irellivant, it's about economies.... "in my opinion"
anyway, i think it's a goer, most likely be a lot of hard work for little monetary reward, but plenty of satisfaction.
because i'm british and as such i'm still entitled to my own opinions. as for the marin question, yes. order of preference is 1.british built by british business 2.foreign built by a british business 3.british built by foreign business 4.foreign built by foreign business. nationality of designer is irellivant, it's about economies.... "in my opinion"
oh great. a BNP bike.
So in summary, other than having a union jack sticker on the tubes - there is nothing to distinguish this frame from anything built cheaper in the far east ... so far it doesn't look good.
oh great. a BNP bike.
I was always slightly worried this could be a reason. I must say that personally I have no great "national pride" in Britain, and have nothing but utter admiration for the work of my factory and contacts in Taiwan.
I wrote the paragraph below, but didn't post last night, because I thought it might be a bit harsh, but perhaps there's an element of truth in it?
It could be a presumption because people have heard from a mate that all frames from "China" are welded by small boys, sat on boxes in a room with a dirt floor, that surely a highly skilled, focused, intellegent Englishman can weld one just as well (or better). So if he can do it, surely my mate Stu who can make roll cages for Ford Escort Mk1's and really nice gates can knock a bike frame up for a the same price of what they can in Taiwan?
My Bluepig arrived yesterday, Im curious to know (but dont expect an answer) on how Brant can make much money per unit on a £260 retailed frame thats wholesaled through Hotlines/CRC
I'm doing OK, but the Blue Pig is just one frame in a range, and that range is just one of the things I do for Hotlines/CRC, so it all adds up for me. I couldn't survive just on selling BluePigs, and Blue Pigs couldn't survive if they were the only product in the range.
with the amount of tube manipulation on them and unique to Ragley/non catalogue cable guides/dropouts and chainstay 'fingers'. I think he claws a bit back with having Mr Wong paint them with half a potatoe though!
The cable guides are actually a catalogue item, but I had to look very hard to find them.
Mr Wong? I think it's a Mrs Chen actually. And I'll let her know that "John Bull" is not happy with her handiwork. If it's awful, send it back and we'll get you a fresh one.
so supporting UK manufacturing is racialist?
also, taiwan ain't china. call someone from Taiwan chinese would really annoy them
I've got one of Mr Wong's frames and I'm very happy with it. I think he lives not too far from Milton Keynes though...
Fascinating thread, I have been thinking of making a frame myself for a while. Has anyone dabbled with 15CDV6 yet?
K9 Industries DH001-S has a 15CDV6 main triangle.
I found this bicycle tubeset too, from Gilco - http://www.trafiltubi.com/doc/eng/chisiamo3.htm
It looks a really interesting steel, though I don't think it's up there with 853 or OX Platinum (but I am interested enough to email them).
also, taiwan ain't china. call someone from Taiwan chinese would really annoy themal
Taiwan is also known as "The Republic of China" so perhaps not. Effectively it's what left of pre-communist China.
I think the racism thread is a bit of old toss really, HTTP404 has missed StMCGroos point completely - he explicitly said it was about economies - ie lets support our own economy because ultimately it will come back to line our pockets.
I want a British built bike because we can do it, and as the OP said with the changing economies here and "over there" the price difference might not be so much, and because of Stu MCGroo's point about the economy , and because of British pride. Is it racism to support the national team at rugby/wendyball/cricket/etc no it bloody well isn't, so supporting the national team at engineering/manufacturing is a good thing.
brant - Premier MemberI must say that personally I have no great "national pride" in Britain
I hope this doesn't turn out to be your Ratner moment..
Kempfab - I assumed you were talking about Butting (thickness reduction)- not fitting together of tubes. So because you mentioned it I wondered if you have access to butting equipment or know of an outfit that does. My experience in the exhaust industry doesn't cover butting tubes. Obviously reynolds do this but I think its all done in the states or far east now, I wonder if there is any butting capability in the UK.
EDIT : Have just been informed that Reynolds do all their butting in the UK in House.
"over there"
😯
EDIT : Have just been informed that Reynolds do all their butting in the UK in House.
Except on Reynolds 520 of course, which is made at Founderland in Taichung.
Yeah well the bloke who told me this I'm not 100% sure is correct because 953 for example is a carpenter product and they are US. Anyway my point was in exploring the OP's idea I wonder if anyone in the UK has the capability to butt tube, do you know of anyone?
As it's driven by economics and with a weak pound and inflation picking up in China, maybe what we'll see is the good established designers (eg Brant, Cy, Sam etc) bring production to the UK as it starts to be able to compete. Has the additional advantage of reducing transport costs and time (for the UK market, at least). There should be a good pool of expereinced skilled welders and fabricators in the UK.
Brant
"Mr Wong? I think it's a Mrs Chen actually. And I'll let her know that "John Bull" is not happy with her handiwork. If it's awful, send it back and we'll get you a fresh one. "
bit of overspray in the seattube/bb and its a bit orange peeley in places but nothing a bit of t-cut wont sort. Not an issue for the money.
Why do people think that certain production run frames are built in Taiwan purely for money reasons? Could it not be that the expertise is there, and not in the UK now? If you want UK built, just go to one of the many custom builders out there and get exactly what you want.
In Taiwan, working in a factory/welding up bike frames is still seen as a good honest job. Over here, most people would consider that kind of work beneath them nowadays. That's just one reason why Taiwan has a thriving manufacturing industry and Brtain doesn't.
I blame ridiculous footballers wages, WAGs and reality TV for turning this nation's minds to mush and for turning the youth into a nation of wannabe celebs instead of thinkers/grafters.