During my deliberations about buying an XC bike, no-one could really answer the question as to "how much faster might I be?"
Well a week after getting my 2017 Scalpel I'm so impressed by its handling and speed - & it just wants to go beserk up hills as well !!
At my local Halden Forest Trail centre I do their blue, blue and red runs flat out and non-stop. My best-ever time on my Cannondale Trigger 2 Carbon, dry track was 57 mins 45 secs last May. Damp times closer to 1 hour or so.
Today I rode the same course on my Scalpel, damp morning and shattered this time with a 52 minute 59 secs.
Still felt fresh enough to ride the longer blue again for a cool down.
Wasn't all plain sailing though & after nearly being bucked off on a 20mph+ technical descent I did come to realise that even with the slacker geometries of Cannondales XXC range, you still need to keep focussed.
So pleased with the new bike.
I've also got a Scalpel Si. I sold my hardtail F-Si for it.
The Scalpel is just flat out fast. Especially when locked out. Can't wait to race on it this season. Might have to enter the Manx 100 to do it full justice. I've got a KS Lev dropper on it at the mo, I'll probably take it off when racing though. It's a very capable bike, especially on the descents
First ride in my scalpel I Took four minutes off my best time on 16k loop, and that was with the brakes the wrong way round.
My xc bike was faster than my 160mm bike. However i soon realised that racing around a trail centre as quickly as possible does not equal fun. I sold the xc bike.
Faster everywhere or just up the fireroads? I don't ride haldon often but seem to remember it's mostly fireroad climbing?
New record time at Haldon on a Saturday? You must have gone early (or late).
9am start - so missed most of traffic.
Halden runs has one small and one larger section of fireroad. Less than 10%.
20mph+ technical descent
Are we talking about the same Haldon? nothing tech at Haldon
We ride from Kenn & do red blue red blue & back to Kenn via cafe side & St Andrews lane in under 3 hours on xc bikes - FR bikes add about 4 minutes
Whilst the times on my xc bike are way faster I reckon alot of it is due to mindset when riding it. Ie when I ride it the whole intention is going fast and pushing myself. On the big bike its all about fun, I never really push that hard and tend to stop for breaks.
My best time on the xc bike round gt red for example is 1hr 10 min. Dont think ive ever done below an hr and a half on the big bike, but its no way 20 min slower in reality.
A proper XC bike is massively quicker, combination of tyres, suspension efficiency and weight.
The first time i rode my XC bike at GT i trimmed about 7mins off the climb and set (small) PB's on most of the downs too.
Wasn't due to pushing any harder as i rode 4 hrs with only a quick stop at the car for a bottle and was still miles quicker at the end.
Not as fun as a FS trail bike though, got quite beaten up on the downhills even if it was marginally faster.
Ooh the lack of science is strong in this thread
I owned a couple of scalpels years back - would love a go on a modern one to see how it rode downhill.
The old soft tail design was superb for climbing and general mile munching, but it was old school XC geometry - very stressful getting it down anything difficult.
TBH the biggest difference is the tyres. Light weight does help, and less travel of course (and what's there isn't designed to be cushioney).
I've just built my first real XC bike for a few years and it's laugh out loud fast when the terrain suits it. First real ride had me riding up a gentle hill in much the same way as I'd usually ride down a gentle hill 😆 Though it's much worse at the good stuff, inevitably.
I think tpbiker makes a good point too, if I go out on the big bike it's all about the descending, I'm not in any sort of rush to get up the hill. The XC bike changes that focus completely.
(I could put these tyres on my Remedy... But it'd ruin it. It'd still not be as quick up the hill, because of all the extra travel etc, but all the descent-focused geometry and suspension would be completely futile with XC tyres on)
Once I find one that's in stock and in my size, I'll let you know... 😡
Ive got a Scott Spark XC bike and a YT Capra. Basically the difference for me is all in the tyres.
They weigh the same since the YT has the super light DT Swiss carbon wheels.
The only real speed benefit on the Scott is smooth hills as I can lock out the suspension. But for short up/down twisty techy stuff there is bugger all in it.
I built an old Kuwahara last year (1991 bike) and it truly kicks the arse of all my bikes full sussers included (fsr xc included) it absolutely flies uphill. These times are recorded on strava so reasonably accurate albeit easier routes Carron valley, torwood and Canada wood trails. If you point it downhill it aint so good.
My XC FS is most definitely faster than my fattie, it also weighs about 5kgs less
When it's in its element (its a rocky element) its quicker up and along, I work hard to keep the speed on technical downs but I have more energy on them. So overall on a 25km plus loop its faster. Local technical descents it's not its a handful out there and on one benchmark Strava segment my pr is 1:22 on the full sus, the XC bike is about 15s back on that.
Ooh the lack of science is strong in this thread
Strava science 🙂
OP, you'd probably be even faster on a CX race bike 🙂
8.4% faster over a 16k all weather red trail with 100m of climbing.
It was in winter too so I expect my fitness was down a bit 😉
Last year I bought a carbon race hardtail and compared my times with those on my still-racy steel hardtail, the difference being about 5-6lbs. I don't recall the exact numbers (I'm not very nerdy) but it amounted to not a lot - certainly single-figure percentage increase. So basically I spent £2k to jump a few places on Strava (not raced it yet). Money well spent.
I took my CX to Glentress and got PRs on all the climbs?
.Faster everywhere or just up the fireroads? I don't ride haldon often but seem to remember it's mostly fireroad climbing?
Was going to say something very similar to this...my XC race bike is very much quicker over an XC course, it's slightly slower in the techy bits but it makes up for it by eating time out of the climbs and bashing along bits.
Haldons (marked) trails are not technical enough to make that difference, my fastest times overall round it have been on a 100mm hardtail XC bike*, occasional segments have been quicker on a FS trail bike but there it's a handful of seconds where as you claw back loads more than that on the climbs and flat bits.
It's rare to find any (non DH specific) trails in the UK where an XC bike is not quicker overall if you just go balls pity the whole way, sections yes, but not overall.
* as much as I hate to use Strava as an example as it's not that representative, but (unless I've been knocked off it) I hold 2nd place on the main red route descent from the grumpy mans gate at Haldon, on a 100mm lightweight hardtail, I can't even top that time on my FS trail bike so that tells you something about the technicality or lack of on that descent and if I can't even go quicker on the downs there imagine how much more time it reclaims on the ups! But compare that to Cafe Side of Haldon and any if the Offpiste or techy bits on Dartmoor and the XC bike is demonstrably slower, it'd still be quicker getting to those techy bits, but it depends where you want to be fast...
Oh, enjoy your new bike! Racing Soggy rd2 next week with it?
as much as I hate to use Strava as an example as it's not that representative, but (unless I've been knocked off it) I hold 2nd place on the main red route descent from the grumpy mans gate at Haldon, on a 100mm lightweight hardtail,
Ha! Which version? There's about 10 different Strava sections for that downhill, all starting and stopping at slightly different places.
But to back up your point, I was (think I've lost it now) KOM on at least 2 of the versions. Done on a 100mm forked hardtail.
@ the OP - I hope you don't only just ride the 'official' trails at Haldon? Must get very boring if you do! There's miles of far nicer and more technical stuff if you get off the beaten path up there.
Ha! Which version? There's about 10 different Strava sections for that downhill, all starting and stopping at slightly different places
Lol true! Still in the top few places on most of the versions, and always just behind James Porter! the point being if a mediocre mid-pack masters racer like me* can get in the top 5 on the main descent on a 100 mm hardtail it shows there's not much technicality there, the marked trails are always going to be quick overall on an XC bike, but the gnadgery bits hinder one lot more, and it's telling that I only really use my race bike when I'm racing....It's too much of a neurotic handful to ride for fun most of the time
* and that's exactly why Strava isn't that representative, I get my arse handed to me by the quick guys at all the local races, so being at the top of local Strava segments means diddly!
XC bikes are fast shocker 🙄
* and that's exactly why Strava isn't that representative, I get my arse handed to me by the quick guys at all the local races, so being at the top of local Strava segments means diddly!
It generally means you went fast down it....
For me it's useful and provides a comparison, the XC bike would have cost me probably 2 mins on the "Gravity Enduro" here which was huge but those time losses fall away if you get the extra up for an XC lap.
Assuming you mean Haldon Forest, how do you manage to do all of those trails without falling asleep? Or running over about a million people...? Good place for taking the kids to but find it amazing that actual mountain bikers bother with it.
I find I'm only faster when I'm not trying. Mainly down to fitness has improved since the last ride.
The bike depends what you're doing really. Blasting round an xc race circuit you'd likely appreciate a light whippet of an xc racer and fast rolling tyres.
Trying to improve times round a trail centre, maybe and maybe not. Light, shorter travel and agile bike I find tears around the trails and sails up those tedious fireroad climbs (*cough* Haldon 😛 ), and yet may not be a "true" xc bike. e.g. my 5010. Does everything, short(er) travel and agile kind of bike. Use it for technical, steeps, general trail/singletrack or xc-ish, and really feels fast. That said, I don't get a great deal more PRs I guess compared to my big heavy Nomad! It's just much easier on the legs.
Weirdly, looking back at some PRs on Strava I set, and they were years ago back on my old GT bike, and not so pedal fit back then either. The thing rolled well. Scary on the descents, though indestructible.
find it amazing that actual mountain bikers bother with it
>Swoons<
find it amazing that actual mountain bikers bother with it
I used to think that, then I approached a corner on the blue run too fast one day, overshot the entry, and suddenly I was in whole different world of fun..,
I used to think that, then I approached a corner on the blue run too fast one day, overshot the entry, and suddenly I was in whole different world of fun..,
Did you end up in one of the doggers carparks? 😯
I gained a new appreciation for the XC bike today- it's reminded me just how ridiculously good my Remedy is 😆 Slower up the hills and I do not give a rat's ass.
The local carron valley trails tell the story. Its not at all technical and a bit of a climb up then descend. Its 5 miles, all man made and really suits a trad xc bike. I do a fast lap in 24 mins or so, 3 mins faster on my anthem 29er than my nomad, despite only 1lb or so in the weight difference. Its all down to the 29er wheels and tyres( racing ralphs against high roller 2) , geo being better for climbing etc. The downs i am a mixture of what bike is fastest but the anthem is significantly quicker on the climbs.
Did you end up in one of the doggers carparks?
Friday night funtimes...
Yes to Soggy Bottom round 2.
No to other side of Halden - but would like to try and find my way around there at some point.
I also ride Cann Woods in Plymouth and the ridge ride. I also have been on several off piste routes at Halden forest (& did the night race there) - Cardinham gets a look in every now and then with a Lanhydrock chaser. Princetown runs and out near Bovey Tracey all conquered as well. Visited Afan (blade and W2) and have done BPW.
But Halden is close to me. Doing my blue-blue-red run I use for both XC training and to gauge my performance. I always go up before the crowds and generally left and home by 10. My girlfriend likes to ride there (she does main blue & tries finish before I catch her with an 8 minute head start after I complete the short blue).
So my rides are varied. If anyone wants to show me some additional stuff up there then I'd be interested -- so long as it's not full of DH gap jumps !!!
Why do I always arrive at a thread after it's finished?
Anyway, FWIW last year I put Ardents and bar ends on my Foxy and still got to the top of the Dyfi Enduro first climb ahead of where I expected to be. Sadly my derailleur then fell apart, so I can only speculate about what would have happened next, but I reckon I would've gained enough time on the tech descents to just about make up for the extra half a stone uphill.
As others have said, the tyres seem to make the biggest difference. Along with spds and bar ends, for me at least.
On a less slatey techy course the xc bike would be a fair bit quicker.
I reckon I would've gained enough time on the tech descents to just about make up for the extra half a stone uphill.
If you took 4 hours to do the Dyfi you'd be going uphill for about 220 minutes and down for 20 (if you're lucky).If you were 10% quicker uphill you'd save 22 minutes.If you were twice as quick downhill.....you'd save 10.
Not sure I agree with the numbers but I take your point. I'd say three hours total, half an hour descending and two hours climbing. 5% slower on climbs, 10% quicker on descents and one less puncture. Closer now...
How was the Scalpel at Soggy then OP?
but I reckon I would've gained enough time on the tech descents to just about make up for the extra half a stone uphill.
Not a hope in hell, all the time is made up climbing, then traversing then descending, with diminishing returns in each section.
My fastest uphill XC times are on a fixed gear bike on 23c tyres.
Don't ask me about any technical downhill sections though as I woudl probably get passed by a 4 year old on a balance bike
I did a 60k Surrey Hills loop yesterday on my new 29er Hardtail, same route as I rode on my Cotic Soul with lightweight wheels and tyres 2 weeks ago, and fairly similar conditions - grim, muddy, slow.
I knocked 40 minutes off my time. Set a PB on Barry Knows Best and a few other descents as well as most climbs.
Admittedly I rode very hard yesterday - but I also rode very hard 2 weeks ago.
By comparison - on my CX bike in dry conditions my moving time for that loop was very similar to the 29er, though obviously there I made the time on the climbs and linking road sections.
Astounded at the difference.
Scalpel was amazing at Soggy yesterday. Last month I did it on my Trigger at got an 11th place in Grand Vet. On my Scalpel yesterday I got a 4th and less than a minute behind 3rd. That is with 4 minor fall offs and stopping to put chain back on.
I also ride with flats and a camel-pack. Lol. >> be great to hit the podium under those criteria 😉