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njee20 - Member
Also amused by your vocal contributions and assertions of "flying up" tarmac climbs as you normally troll any thread with even a hint of a mention of road bikes!
Not knocking road at all. Just asserting that an equal gradient and length, one tarmac and one rough off road, of course I'd find it easier on tarmac on a road bike than off road. Pretty sure anyone would. That's not saying road riding is easier, just for the equal length and gradient you cover the distance quicker.
100 road vs 100 off, and yes the 100 off is harder. Okay SDW example isn't saying 100miler SDW is easy. Just saying comparably it's a flatter route. Over all it's 11000ft or whatever but that's over 100 miles. 30 miles of SDW vs 30 miles of Surrey Hills... very different, even if it's the same elevation gain. Point is to counter the argument that "most" 30 mile MTB rides are much easier than 100 mile flat road.
Anyway to be truthfully honest I'm finding it very tempting these days to go back to a bit of road as fitness is moving more that way. I will of course be finding a road forum for my discussion, not [u]Singletrack[/u]world 😉
can some one please define flat, where do you ride that's 100 miles and flat? Norfolk Fens?
30 miles of SDW vs 30 miles of Surrey Hills... very different, even if it's the same elevation gain.
But you've never ridden the SDW...? The western most 30 miles of the SDW is definitely tougher than any 30 miles in the Surrey hills. It's not exactly mountainous.
Just asserting that an equal gradient and length, one tarmac and one rough off road, of course I'd find it easier on tarmac on a road bike than off road
Of course. About 0.62 times easier I'd say. we need some sort of sensible approximation for these situations.
100 road vs 100 off, and yes the 100 off is harder
Again, yes, very good, have you read the thread? I'd say 100 miles around the Surrey hills on the road is comparable to 100k around the Surrey Hills on the MTB.
I find that about 100 miles of road takes me about the same time as 30 miles offroad. It's the rule of thumb I use for planning rides.
I go by time, for me 1hr offroad ~= 1hr road.
@xyeti - the only place I've ridden that I'd class as "flat" was around Cambridge. I was down there with work and went for an evening ride: 74Km with 150m of climbing - I've been on hillier Channel crossings! It is surprisingly hard work though as you don't, indeed can't, stop pedalling, at least with hilly terrain you get a bit of freewheeling now and again.
Using someone who does well in TTs as a comparison is a bit misleading as that's a constant effort by definition so not well suited to the interval style riding typical of off-road riding. If you took someone who was good at crit riding then apart from the technical aspect of trail centre type riding they'd be pretty hard to keep up with.
Slightly off-topic: I find each type of riding complements the other - the higher overall aerobic demands of road riding help with off-road climbs and the short punchy high efforts of off-road help with similar efforts on road.
[i]The miles/km conversation works as a rough estimate, but theres too many variables to be accurate.[/i]
Agree.
But around here (last night we did 11 miles offroad and climbed 3000ft) I reckon it's nearer 1 mile off-road to 2 miles on-road.
did 11 miles offroad and climbed 3000ft) I reckon it's nearer 1 mile off-road to 2 miles on-road.
So there are steep hills. It would be just as hilly on the road, unless you're riding somewhere else, in which case it's an apples:oranges comparison.
OP.... it would appear that the only way to scientifically know is to get on with it and post the results.
Sounds fun and will end this debate forever!
Been riding mtb and road for over 25 years and to my personal experience 100 miles of flatish road vs 25-30 miles of hilly mtb, the 100 miles road is easy in comparison.
As to whether you beat him on the road or not could be as simple as how well you get on with a road bike, riding drops could do your back in after the first 20 miles and you'll not be able to put any power down. Same goes for him, his upper body strength could be shattered by all the technical maneuvering.
If I where you I'd blast him with as much technical as possible with a few loops of the top section of summer lightning (think I read you're doing this in the surrey hills?). That would batter him a fair bit.
Re hilly rides, see here - http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/would-what-you-class-as-a-flat-ride-ie-not-hilly
1,000 ft per 10 miles seems like the benchmark
Too many variables for anything accurate. Height gain is also as big a factor as distance
Also, is that your only form of fitness? I personally find road riding to be more aerobic/cardio than MTB, but that's probably just my form of pootling. I find MTBing more interval like
Cousins husband has riden MTB 2-3 times a week for years, rides hard , stuck a set of slicks on his MTB and smashed a 6hr 51 min Fred Whitton, most roadies who are out 3 times a week probably couldn`t get near that time.Just depends who rides hardest when they are out.
The western most 30 miles of the SDW is definitely tougher than any 30 miles in the Surrey hills.
Amberly to Eastbourne and return will confirm this - very hard - I cried.
Amberly to Eastbourne and return will confirm this - very hard - I cried.The western most 30 miles of the SDW is definitely tougher than any 30 miles in the Surrey hills.
I of course meant the eastern 30 miles! 😳
Not read all that, but will share my story.
It all depends on the technicality. A lumpy/rocky/muddy MTB ride can require upper body strength, balance and co-ordination; you can be a fit roadie without possessing these skills to any great degree.
I ride road and MTB. I'm one of the last to the top of the hills on my road club rides (which are hilly!) and near the bottom in 5m TTs. I took a roadie pal - stronger than me on the road by a noticeable margin - on a snowy MTB ride a couple of years ago. It nearly killed him 😆
Been riding road, CX and MTB since the 80's - the reality is that few MTB riders train at high threshold and would struggle to ride one lap of a road race, even on a flat course. Fit riders, regardless of discipline ride on the road as it's the only way to train consistently at high intensity.
I of course meant the eastern 30 miles!
So did I! 12,400 feet and 11hrs. Not sure I could have done 183 road miles in the same time.
I plan on redoing it now I've forgotten the pain (and the route)
Been riding road, CX and MTB since the 80's - the reality is that few MTB riders train at high threshold and would struggle to ride one lap of a road race, even on a flat course. Fit riders, regardless of discipline ride on the road as it's the only way to train consistently at high intensity.
How would a mtber struggle to ride one lap of a road race? Surely any biker would get around a lap. Obviously a weekend warrier isn't going to keep up with an elite roadie. I don't get what you mean?!
Been riding road, CX and MTB since the 80's - the reality is that few MTB riders train at high threshold and would struggle to ride one lap of a road race, even on a flat course. Fit riders, regardless of discipline ride on the road as it's the only way to train consistently at high intensity.
Which is the divide really, it's not the choice of surface that defines riders, offroad or road.
I ride MTB for fun, smiles, views and generally being in the outdoors.
Lots of roadies I know - it's all about the numbers. Distance, average, ascent, cadence.
I ride a bike for fun, smiles, views and generally being in the outdoors.
FTFY 😆
Some days I ride for the numbers some days I ride for the views etc. Which bike I'm on doesn't come in to it.
I find it slightly ironic that a group who'd go to somewhere like BPW because they then don't have to pedal uphill are talking about fitness (tongue firmly in cheek!)
"When shit down you better be ready"
Ooops posted the above in the wrong thread! oh well.
They're both as hard as you make them, 100 flat road miles can be absolute purgatory if you push it hard enough, likewise 30 hilly MTB miles can take all day and be a literal walk in the park.
Comparing a fast TT rider to someone who rides single track regularly is a bit of a nonsense also, they're different skill sets.
I don't think the 1.6 ratio is quite right. Quite happy to knock out 100 miles on the road at a weekend, with no specific training or worries. I'd check my tyre pressure and pack a bit more food. 60 miles offroad would be a special in the summer type thing. I think 2:1 is more appropriate. Most of my riding is south coast/ south downs based...
Lots of roadies I know - it's all about the numbers. Distance, average, ascent, cadence.
I knew it i'm a roadie 😉
Stuff the MTB and road rides. You want a single 40 second blast around a BMX track on proper 20" bikes- winner takes all (the curry) 😀
They're both as hard as you make them
Exactly. I only do short rides (1-2 hours) on road and off road.
I put the same (highish) effort into road and off-road and both feel the same.
Whether climbing a tarmac hill or climbing an off road hill makes no difference if I am putting the same effort in.
Skills don't come into it.
kerley - Member
Whether climbing a tarmac hill or climbing an off road hill makes no difference if I am putting the same effort in.Skills don't come into it.
If the off road hill is a fireroad maybe.
I don't think the op was enquiring about a difference in skill levels, but about how much easier road cycling is perceived to be than mountain biking.
Lots of opinions here, many I agree with but still here's my $.02. Fundamentally you can't remove the influence of skill level when comparing.
My experience is that fitness from riding road translates better into mtb fitness than the other way around.
Road riding is generally mostly about fitness - on that basis your mate may well beat you..........
BUT mtb is as much about bike handling skill as it is about fitness and these learnt bike skills do not translate from road bike handling skills. So the more technical the off road route (climbing and descending) the easier it will be for you to "win"
As evidence, my mate rides mostly road with a little bit of mtb, I ride about 50/50 but with far less total riding. It's hilly here on or off road (exmoor)
On a road bike he is considerably faster than me, up and downhill by some margin. His fitness is better and that counts most plus he's pretty fearless descending on road.
On an mtb ride he's as fast or faster than me on a fire road climb where fitness rather than mtb skills count. BUT include some technical climbing and some off road descending and he's left for dead (like a minute slower on a 60 second descent) because his mtb bike handling skills are not good enough
I was comparing road/off road with me as the rider in both situations. I have whatever skills I have which is why they don't come into it for me. I put same effort into both so both are equally hard.
For same effort I will be going faster on the road but still the same effort. That effort over 2 hours is still the same effort.
For the same percieved effort you are only going faster on the road due to the nature of the surface, the aerodynamic situation etc.
For the same percieved effort you are only going faster on the road due to the nature of the surface, the aerodynamic situation etc.
Apart from it is not perceived effort, it is actual effort.
A 100 mile a ride roadie, with minimal elevation, will be accustomed to that sort of riding, lots of endurance and stamina to put smooth power down, on a lightweight bike with little peddling resistance, probably working in low heart rate zones of 2-3.
If that's all he does he'll find it a challenge on a 25-30 mile loop of Jacobs Ladder i'd say, especially if he's not used to lots of climbing, and the high heart rate zone required to pedal up technical stuff.
Equally if a MTBer just does 30 mile rides, with the usual ascend/descend loops you get around the peaks using it again as an example, he may struggle to maintain the stamina for long periods flat out on the road.
Be interesting to see how it pans out.
Had another think about this since my earlier post and I still think road riding is easier, but hopefully I can better explain.
I've yet to find a steep road that I cannot ride up on my road bike, even with several heavy miles in my legs already. The smooth surface and relative lack of resistance means that even if my legs are turning only very slowly, I'm still going up. There are plenty of off-road climbs that have got me off and pushing/carrying. This is as good a measure of ease as anything else in my opinion. I could say the same for downhills too, although that is more about technique and skills than out-and-out fitness.
This is as good a measure of ease as anything else in my opinion
But your effort level to walk up a steep off road climb is almost certainly less than grinding up a 25% tarmac ramp at 60rpm...
I've yet to find a steep road that I cannot ride up on my road bike, even with several heavy miles in my legs already
Yeah,it's no bother on 34x36 😛 😉
As evidence, my mate rides mostly road with a little bit of mtb, I ride about 50/50 but with far less total riding. It's hilly here on or off road (exmoor)On a road bike he is considerably faster than me, up and downhill by some margin. His fitness is better and that counts most plus he's pretty fearless descending on road.
On an mtb ride he's as fast or faster than me on a fire road climb where fitness rather than mtb skills count. BUT include some technical climbing and some off road descending and he's left for dead (like a minute slower on a 60 second descent) because his mtb bike handling skills are not good enough
That would be my take on it too.
I find road riding knackering, probably down to the consistent pedalling and reasonably static position. I also also find it really dull. However it does feel that it substantially benefits my MTBing.
So when's this race going to happen and can we watch it on redbull tv?
But your effort level to walk up a steep off road climb is almost certainly less than grinding up a 25% tarmac ramp at 60rpm...
The question was about riding, not walking and I suggested that something that makes you get off and walk is arguably harder. Getting off is "giving up". All bets and comparisons are off at that point 😉
I've yet to find a steep road that I cannot ride up on my road bike
Depends on gearing, for me. I've got a few locally that are pretty close on 30/25... and as for 60rpm.. I'm down to about 25.
This should be easy to measure using a power meter and a fixed time and level of output.
My 2p worth; it depends on what you weigh. I ride a lot of road, and a fair bit of MTB. I'm 205lbs, 6ft5 and I know my strengths are on the flat on a road bike where I am strong and can push on. Introduce hills, and my weight means I start going backwards. So for me, I'd take 100 flat road miles over the 30 hilly mtb miles. For someone carrying less weight, I'd imagine the equation may be reversed. I can hold my own for the first few hundred metres of a steep climb then the lightweight whippets disappear into the distance! Just had a look on garmin, 81km road ride, 950m climbing average 29kph. MBR trail at coed y brenin, 18km, 491m climbing, average an embarrassing 12.6kph. I'd do the road ride before 2 loops of the MBR route every day, far easier for me personally 🙂
The question was about riding, not walking and I suggested that something that makes you get off and walk is arguably harder. Getting off is "giving up". All bets and comparisons are off at that point
Well alright, there are 1 or 2 hills locally (Surrey Hills) that I find ****ing hard on the road bike, considering stopping for a rest hard. There aren't really any on the MTB, except for one or two which are so steep that cleaning them is between marginal and incredibly unlikely. Therefore, in an average MTB ride I won't encounter any hills I'll find particularly difficult, whilst on the road it's entirely possible I will, making road riding significantly harder.
This is in part due to gearing differences, the same road hills are easy on an MTB with a 32-42 bottom gear. But because the MTB has that low gear climbing isn't necessarily any harder, indeed I'd say it's easier.
This should be easy to measure using a power meter and a fixed time and level of output.
Which will compare those two scenarios, on that day. Go back after heavy rain and the MTB ride will likely get harder, and thus the comparative measure changes. Ditto introducing a 50mph headwind on the road.
I stand by my 0.62 conversion rate as a guide though!
Interesting thread
Surely you'd want to pick a route each of you can ride in a similar time (maybe that is the 100 vs 30). As an aside my roadie mates are fitter as they tend to ride flat out without stops. I rarely ride more than 30 mins without stopping. Also roadies are obsessed with time, I'm out to enjoy the countryside and ride downhill trails for enjoyment not speed.
First time out i reckon it'll be close, second time he'll smash you to pieces......
Thats my experience of roadies who've switched to mtb and the other way round. Basic mtb skills aren't that hard to pick up, but fitness takes months and months.