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My financial resources are finite and limited.
So are mine, but the Government keep taking money off me to pay for public sector type stuff, and then borrowing even more and expecting me to pay for it like 😉
I, and most people I suspect, do not have sufficient disposable income to act charitably towards a private business.
Why should we act charitably towards anyone, why should my taxes pay for someone else to get free operations and stuff? its all self, self, self innit 😉
Now, either LBS's recognise this fact, in these austere times, and adapt to the market, or they don't survive. Simple economics.
How about public sector unions and employee's recognise it too eh?
should the Governemnt intervene, to bail out the localised cycle retail industry?
Fred - you still don't get it do you? Thats exactly what Thatcher refused to do with the Miners, innit!
we'll say it again for you:
Why did the mines, the steelyards, the car manufacturers close down?
[b]Because we could by it from somewhere else cheaper of course [/b]
Maybe the govt might bail the nations LBS's out one day like the financial sector.
Or not.
[b]Well I'd like to go through with the sale with this place as they've been most helpful. If I get the price matched, then it gives me money in my pocket to spend on other things, such as the two helmets & a nice set of pedals (all will be purchased in this same store).
The bikes are both a 2011 model. One is a proper LBS and the other is a Specialized Concept Store but I'd still say pretty local as everyone and their dog rides the big S around here (watching a dog ride a bike is hilarious by the way)[/b]
So; a LBS does have something to offer that an online retailer does not in any way, after all then? So there is added value in shopping at a LBS?
In your example, you took the value that was added by the LBS (they had a physical product you could try on) but you gave them nothing. Not a capital offense, but you should be doing time 👿
Why should we act charitably towards anyone, why should my taxes pay for someone else to get free operations and stuff?
See, the thing you've missed (and it's a big one), is that whether I spend my money in a LBS or online, it's still going into the economy. Basically, more is being spent on cycling anyway, and the online retailers have added to that. So the balance of power is being shifted from the high street to online retailers. Money's still going into the economy though, is not it? And those industries are still paying taxes, aren't they?
So forget the public service comparison cos it's invalid. Totally irrelevant to this argument. We're talking about private sector vs private sector, so quite why you've involved comparison with the public sector I have no idea. This iuzzunt about political ideology no matter how much you want it to be, it's about simple economics.
Seems you jolly well have not got that point yet, in spite of me pointing it out to you [i]several times[/i] now.
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whether i spend my money in a LBS or online, it's still going into the economy Basically, more is being spent on cycling anyway, and the online retailers have added to that. So the balance of power is being shifted from the high street to online retailers.
I suppose it duzzunt [i]really[/i] matter whether ambulance drivers and bin collectors are employed by the public sector either duzzit, coz that money's still going into the economy - thats your argument that is!
Money's still going into the economy though, is not it? And those industries are still paying taxes, aren't they?
No, course not - them big companies find a way out of all the taxes, its like Tesco and Vodafone, innit!
Tell me Fred - why do you think online retailers sell it cheaper, its coz their overheads are lower - that absolutely shoots through your own point in one easy step - their overheads are LOWER, cos there is less money going in wages, rent and taxes - thats hows they operate like!
Zulu-Eleven - Member
..your making a bigger tit of yourself with every subsequent post mate.
As the saying goes ..
[i]Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt[/i]
Well, no, cos for example CRC or Merlin will buy OE stuff direct from Shimano, (or Commencal, or whoever) so you've just put the distributor out of a job
So how do we takle this problem then? Surely there needs to be increased solidarity within the whole cycling trade then? Somewhat difficult, considering they're all businesses essentially competing with one another...
What about companies like On-One, what source stuff directly from abroad, sell only online, undercut the competition and I'd imagine do ok? Aren't they the same as the Evil CRC etc?
there is less money going in wages, rent and taxes - thats hows they operate like!
What about all the delivery drivers who drive stuff all over the UK? What about their wages and taxes?
So are you saying the economy is benefiting [i]less[/i] from online retailers like CRC than LBS's then? Got any figures to prove this?
See, instead of trying to stupidly score points, Labby, I'm presenting the harsh reality of the current economic situation, then looking for ways we can find possible solutions. All you're doing is trying to get one over someone on the internet. Cos, like, that's so big and brave. 🙄
And what about the notion of imposing taxes on online sales? Oh no sorry I forgot you don't like taxes, do you?
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Turning into a very funny thread - unscripted, ironic genius. Excellent!!
[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/uk-cycling-market-now-worth-215bn-28665/ ]
[/url]The UK cycling market has expanded rapidly over the past couple of years and is now worth over £2.15 billion, new research suggests......
For their Project Velo report, Allegra Strategies looked at consumer spending on bikes and accessories. They estimate that by 2015, the value of the market will exceed £3 billion – and that doesn't include money spent on things like cycling holidays and race entries.
So, with cycling being a 'growing market', surely this will benefit the UK economy increasingly over the coming years?
And in an expaynding market, surely there is place for the LBS? No?
And CRC* and Wiggle both started out as small independent retailers, yet through prudence and smart business acumen, have grown exponentially into hugely successful companies. Surely this is the Capitalist Dream? No? Be better than the competition, eliminate the competition, operate a monopoly- power ensured.
So; limit just how big a LBS can get via the introduction of legislation perhaps? But surely that would interfere with the Free Market model?
Evans are looking a bit too big; time to reel them in? Limit their ability to grow?
*Don't CRC just have the one retail outlet? So am I not ultimately supporting a Local Bike Shop? One which is based in an economically deprived part of the UK, at that? One which employs local people in that area, thus contributing to the Local Economy?
I'm a bit confuddled. What to do, eh? 😐
Sigh....
I'm presenting the harsh reality of the current economic situation, then looking for ways we can find possible solutions.
How about we all stop thinking about the short term benefit of pennies in our pockets and [i]All[/i] start using the LBS... they get more trade and can possibly start to leverage this, pass on cheaper products to us and still offer that great service?
I'd like to, TSY, I'd like to, but if CRC have what I need for cheaper, it's very difficult to. 🙁
Oh, and the less I spend on bike stuffs, the more I have left to spend in the local shops here! 😮
So, ultimately, CRC is actually helping the local economy where I live! Winner! 😀
(Feels much better about self now)
it's very difficult to
Yep, I hear that. It takes a big man to set aside their own greed for the benefit of the local community.
Luckily you've found a way of reconciling this. 😆
Sorry Elfin - your defence of Wiggle and CRC only seem to be supporting my point that deep down at heart, you're a Thatcherite, despite all the faux left wing bollox that you continually spout on this site.
Your focus on, and I'll use your words:
Business is business; dog eat dog. My priority is to myself, I can't be concerned with the profit margins of others.
Is the capitalist, right wing, free market dream come real - competition reduces prices, bang on - seriously, seeing statements like that come from Lefties gives me wood, because seeing you say that proves to me that we've won 😈
Oh dear. She's babbling now. 😐
you're a Thatcherite
I'm afraid not Labby. No matter how much you scream and stamp your feet. 😆
I do live in a society where Thatcherite policies have helped dictate the way we shop, however. That does not in any way make me a Thatcherite I'm afraid. Soz to wee on your chips. 😐
Let's see now, my money, need to buy something, where from, various options, one cheaper than other with no disadvantages or penalties, overall economy still benefits, ah....
That's about it done now. The best way to help my local economy is to spend less elsewhere.
Simples. 😀
What's better, a cycling Thatcherite or a non-cycling Socialist? Just wondering.
Well That's a huge price difference and too big to ignore if it's a like for like comparison .
Problem with price matching is that the LBS will give you advice regarding which bike suits your needs best , fits you etc . Then they will sell you the bike . Then they will carry out after sales service , free service , correct eny problems , cable stretch , suspension set up etc .
Now I appreciate that many experienced cyclists may not need these services to the same degree as a beginner but when you price match the LBS with the internet you are comparing somebody who will carry out all phases of selling a bike and not just selling it only .
One thing that might help is to go to your LBS and tell them what you're going to order online and at what price and ask if they'll order it in for you.
Bike 1 - £3200
Bike 2 - £2300
Both identical.
So some of you would spend the extra £900? Right then. I'm sure you would! You're either liars or ****ing loaded. If it is the latter I'll send you my address so you can throw some more money away for bugger all!
Problem with price matching is that the LBS will give you advice regarding which bike suits your needs best , fits you etc . Then they will sell you the bike . Then they will carry out after sales service , free service , correct eny problems , cable stretch , suspension set up etc .
Don't tell Labby right, cos it'll ruin his day, but every bike I've ever bought (bar from one frame) has bin from a LBS, and probbly about 90% of all the money I've spent on new bike stuff has bin spent in LBS's.
People like me are why LBS owners can't afford to feed their children. It's so sad. 😥
Should I stop buying second hand stuff cos of the huge negative effect on the economy? But what about the negative effect on the planet, of too much stuffs being made and not enough recycling?
Oh it's not easy this, is it?
Let's see now, my money, need to buy something, where from, various options, one cheaper than other with [u]no disadvantages or penalties[/u], overall economy still benefits, ah....
Maybe not to you, but how about to wider society, eh Freddie?
Why can't independents form a buying cooperative? Independent electrical retailers have with the Euronics idea allowing them to compete with the big sheds. A thriving shop I know is the hub of a successful club (cycleopedia and JIF in cardiff), and thru the club they provide coaching sessions on track etc. LBS need to exploit their USP; service. Anyone who has bought anything from CRC or wiggle or any other mail order discounter is a hypocrite bashing elfin, because you've shopped on the basis of price to your own benefit and to the detriment of your local retailer.
I'm a liberal minded public sector worker but this debate is about rivals in a private sector consumerism driven business.
900 quid is too much to be principled about.
So some of you would spend the extra £900? Right then. I'm sure you would! You're either liars or **** loaded. If it is the latter I'll send you my address so you can throw some more money away for bugger all!
I'm neither, but when I make a deal I stick to it...it's a simple thing but one that few people seem to stick with these days...I've no doubt spent over the odds on some things over the years but I'm happy with my decisions...a fair number of mates I know are the same...guess it depends on your values/beliefs...at the end of the day, the service you get (including the product) is the thing your money is paying for...so as long as I you feel as though you have gained a good deal then there isn't an issue.
I'm not anti-LBS or anti-online (likewise I'm not pro- either of them either)...they both work very well...but they are completely different things and I use them both but for different things.
Elfinsafety - MemberI'd like to, TSY, I'd like to, but if CRC have what I need for cheaper, it's very difficult to
I suppose the bit I don't get, is if you want the online price why don't just you buy online rather than go into a shop try something on then ask for the online price? It's not something I would do for any product, bike related or not, if I want the online price I buy online.
Sounds like you want it both ways.
I did hear of a story that retailers in Australia were 'charging' for people to try on shoes, then taking that 'charge' off the price if they bought them. Don't know if it worked mind.
Maybe not to you, but how about to wider society, eh Freddie?
I've explained this several times, not that you bother to read owt, always looking for some way to outdo me (which you've never ever achieved on here don't know why you persist quite frankly 🙄 ):
Finite sum of money. Less money spent on bike stuffs = more money spent with local businesses close to me. 😀
So, same amount of money spent in total. Simple maffs really.
Anyone who has bought anything from CRC or wiggle or any other mail order discounter is a hypocrite bashing elfin, because you've shopped on the basis of price to your own benefit and to the detriment of your local retailer.......this debate is about rivals in a private sector consumerism driven business.
At last; someone who can think things through rationally and objectively. Thank you. 🙂
Whatever - I'm not reading all that lot (too many quotes)
But...
I wouldn't take the piss from a bricks and mortar shop by trying on gear there - then buying online.
That's the line. Look.
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sc-xc +1
And that's the crux for me when it comes to buying
Fred's reverse gears are crunching.
I suppose the bit I don't get, is if you want the online price why don't just you buy online rather than go into a shop try something on then ask for the online price?
I asked if they would match the price (or even get close to it) that several other retailers including indy shops were doing them for, but then they said they only matched 'normal' retail prices. The irony is, that a few weeks later they then have exactly the same product I asked them to PM, for less than the discounted sale price I bought them for anyway. 😆
So, had they PMed the shoes that day, they'duv ultimately ended up with more money through their till than the No Sale they did get or even their eventual sale price. Hey ho.
And now, cosov that, I may now choose not to shop with them again, so they've potentially missed out on any future sales to me as well. Remember that bit about keeping customers happy...?
Fred's reverse gears are crunching.
No, that's your brain, trying to keep uop. I'm steaming Full Speed Ahead mate. 😉
(Did you see what I did there? Do you like it? Good, weren't it? 🙂 )
I'm steaming Full Speed Ahead mate.
I believe the phrase is "I'm keeping digging"
Oh, you din't get it.
😐
Never mind....
Got owt intelligent to add, or just yer usual rubbish?
No, thought not. Off you go now please, thanks.
No, thought not. Off you go now please, thanks.
No actually I think I'll hang around, pop in every now again just to see how you're doing on this one. 😆
And don't forget "Simple economics, innit? Buy wherever is cheapest.", I think that quote might come back to haunt you.
This is simple, be resonable ask them to price match, if they can't go else where assuming your deposit isn't bigger than 900 quid.
Not a moral dilema at all, you're not being underhand and you don't owe anyone a living. Not sure why some people treat bike shops as a charity?
If I went to our customers at work and asked them to pay nearly 40% extra for the same product they'd laugh in my face, and rightly so!
Elf, I can see the irony in that especially if they advertise a price match option and also notice that you spend most of your money in LBSs 🙂 but just to re-quote what you said earlier and to try to explain where I'm coming from:
[b]No bike shop gets my business unless they're at least pretty close to what I can get something for online.[/b] Recently went to a bike shop (expaynding chain actually), tried some shoes on, asked them to price match the sale price [b]most other retailers[/b] were offering, they said no, I walked out and bought them online. So, used their facilities to try on for size, yet they get no benefit at all. Despite offering a 'price match' service
Now because your first sentence mentioned online, I took that as the context and therefore you were asking for price matching against online, subsequently you have said
which changes the slant quite a bit.several other retailers including indy shops
So here is a question for you; there's a jacket you would like rrp £120, you know the online retailers have it at £72 (40% discount unlikely to be price matched by an indy lbs). Do you buy it online or do you go try them out for size first in an indy lbs?
No loyalty when it comes to 900 quid.
Tbh I prefer buying from a LBS myself, but if it comes to it and it's cheaper else where, well tough titty really.
If you feel loyalty to the LBS ask them to price match, I wouldn't feel guilty about going elsewhere though, least you gave them the chance to make some profit, up to them if they want to take it/feel it's worth it.
duplicate.
This is simple, be resonable ask them to price match, if they can't go else where assuming your deposit isn't bigger than 900 quid.Not a moral dilema at all, you're not being underhand and you don't owe anyone a living. Not sure why some people treat bike shops as a charity?
This is true, if you walk away leaving your deposit (which is what I think you're suggesting)
Zulu: Your model model of Capitalism is of course how the western world operates, and I suppose has proved more sucessful than alternative models. The architypal sucessful free market economy was of course Ancient Rome with its social mobility etc...the only teeny, weeny problem was that the folk at the bottom who did most of the work didn't actually get paid at all. Is this not where unfettered capitalism leads to as a logical conclusion? Surely like any other model it can't work in isolation?
I try and support my LBS..only that now that the manager of my local shop has admitted to eating at Macdonalds after riding at Glentress (on this forum?)I just don't know where to take my business! 😆
such as the two helmets & a nice set of pedals (all will be purchased in this same store)
if youre going to buy helmets/pedals with the spare £900 see if they can add those in with the bike, rather than just asking for the money off then buying the bits afterwards.
also, i agree with zulu.
So are you saying the economy is benefiting less from online retailers like CRC than LBS's then?
If you miss all the people out between 'you' and 'the economy', your arguements remain simple. Well done. You are better than that.
I bought a bike mail order from a remote LBS as it was the cheapest on the net, where does that fit in to the equation?
Back to the OP, you've paid a deposit so are likely to lose it if you do go elsewhere. I'd check out the facts about condition and availability of other bike and then mention this to your LBS - mention that you wouldn't want an exact price match but ask if they can come to some arrangement.
And don't forget "Simple economics, innit? Buy wherever is cheapest.", I think that quote might come back to haunt you.
Hardly. I've said exactly the same thing on this forum several times in the past too. 🙄
Go and have a search. That'll keep you occupied for a while. Of you go.
Now because your first sentence mentioned online, I took that as the context and therefore you were asking for price matching against online, subsequently you have saidseveral other retailers including indy shops
which changes the slant quite a bit.
Don't really see how, quite honestly. Several other bike shops and online retailers were doing them at the discounted price. Was an end of season thing. I thought the shop I went into would do the same deal. Seems I actually just missed out by a couple of weeks as it turned out. Such is life.
So here is a question for you; there's a jacket you would like rrp £120, you know the online retailers have it at £72 (40% discount unlikely to be price matched by an indy lbs). Do you buy it online or do you go try them out for size first in an indy lbs
Is there a law against trying something on in one shop yet buying it somewhere else?
Course I'd bloody try it on; I'd need to get the right size regardless of which shop I bought it from. I'm still ultimately buying it off the manufacturers, in't I? If the shop I try it on in won't come down in price, then I'm not going to waste my money, which I don't have a lot of anyway, paying all that extra just to appease the morally outraged on here. 😆 I woon't be doing anything anyone else on here woon't do, no matter how self-righteous they pretend to be. At least I'm honest about it.
If a lot of other places were doing it at a discounted rate, I'd at least expect them to come down a bit if they want the sale.
I've had to go into a bike shop to try a helmet on when I had to have one replaced under the crash replacement scheme. How was I sposed to find the right size without doing so? I told the people in the shop what I was doing, they were ok with it. I've asked to try stuff on I have no intention of buying at full RRP, they've let me. I've actually then got a good discount that way once or twice. 🙂
I am of course morally and ethically bankrupt. I expect all those shops will be bankrupt soon too as a result of my despicable behaviour. 😐
Oh whell such is life.
Cheapest price possible, low perceived value, high sales volume requirement. What a doomed place for any small business.
I'm still ultimately buying it off the manufacturers, in't I?
So, unless we can develop some sort of barter process, there needs to be a capitalist transaction - at least one if buying from the manufacturer - to get these goods.
Your oversimplification to get your weasely words to fit your arguement gets worse with every post. I am well down your Christmas card list, but I expect far better of you than this. I think Z_11 is the Nemesis to your Torqetoomuch and he is actually getting to you now.