After getting an ebike 18months ago ive recently fallen in love with proper unassisted riding again so have defaulted back to me being the only engine.
But i've sold my trail bike as so the options are my enduro bike (Transition Sentinal, Cascade Link, Coli R, Fox 38 F) or my hardtail (Ragley Big Al, 150 Lyriks).
The lads i ride with are all on regular trail bikes and whilst im very happy going at my own speed and they seem happy waiting i do get properly left for dead on climbs when i take out the Transition. I ride a couple of times a week and have recently lost around 8kg in weight so in reasonable shape for me. There is room for improvement, but not much.
I know the correct answer is N+1 but would you all be reaching for the hardtail or the enduro rig?
The thing that I've found that makes the most difference is the tyres I've got on the bike. Enduro tyres are designed to winch yourself up and then be quick on the down. Tyres that are more trail or XC orientated make a massive difference. Weight not so much.
Fair point. I tend to run the same tyres on both bikes (schwalbe MM f, HD r). And in that regard i expect all those i'm riding with are on similar type tyres.
Really depends on the terrain and type of riding IMO. If it’s not too demanding dh then I’m way faster at climbing and descending on a suitable hardtail. As soon as the dh gets rocky though it’s a different story.
I ride a transition sentinel v1 as a trail bike. With mediumly light(ish) wheels and fast rolling tyres on it, and platform damped air shock, it's fine for pedalling.
I did a massive 90km ride across the peak district with it built like that, back in September.
I used to run it with cascade link however for trail I don't need the extra travel and can make a useful weight saving.
Running 140mm rear, 160mm front.
I agree with @reeksy though. Hardtail may be a lot faster for smoother tracks, but over rough terrain for long distances the comfiness and better descending capability of an FS will win out (for me at least)
I used to run it with cascade link however for trail I don't need the extra travel and can make a useful weight saving.
I still have the original link and air shock, but it was bought as a cheap s/h to be converted into my park / enduro bike so now 165/170 and a couple of kg heavier. If i'd have left it in its original form then it would have been fine i'm sure. But i certainly cant be faffed swapping the shock/link/fork back and forth as uplift days etc are quite regular.
Tires.
I Put a 2.4 sticky shorty on the front one winter and I halved the distance I was prepared to pedal.
My big bike has a heavy hillbilly on the front, the smaller one has a 2.6 light butcher on the front. Same rear tire.
While the big bike is heavier, I am reasonably sure it's the front tire making most of the difference.
I'd try swapping on the same tires your mates use. If you can't face the faff, a second wheel set might reduce it a bit
silly tyres make a massive difference. The rolling difference between an argotal and a magic mary is quite noticeable for me (and the mary is not fast!!)
But i love a hardtail. so HT every day for me.
The Big Al is more than capable enough for most stuff I ride (your rides may be different). If I were struggling on the Sentinel, I'd be taking the Big Al for most of the rides and saving the Transition for when it's really needed
Yeah, back 20 years or more ago a mate bought a Specialized Big Hit, which had 6" travel front and rear, with a 24" rear wheel. He put a 3" wide Nokian Gazzalodi on the back, which was considered massively wide back then. On road, he literally had to pedal it downhill to keep up with everyone else just coasting.silly tyres make a massive difference
I know the correct answer is N+1 but would you all be reaching for the hardtail or the enduro rig?
I took option C: sell hardtail and replace with short-travel, lighter FSer ("downcountry") to use alongside my enduro bike. Lighter than my hardtail was, comfier and more capable for general riding.
I miss having a hardtail in my garage, but I don't miss having a hardtail out on the trails...
I had a similar quandary after picking up a Nukeproof Scout for winter use, I started riding with some XC guys but would get left for dead on the flats and ups, I switched the Assegai and DHR2 for Spesh XC tyres (Fasttrak and Renegade - copied what came on the epic) and it made a lot of difference.
You can get those tyres off of eBay or marketplace to give it a go and then if still not great, maybe its goodbye HT and hello down country/trail bike.
I have a super heavy 42lb+ 180mm enduro bike, a 27lb 130mm trail bike. I've experimented with putting the enduro wheels/tyres on my trail bike for middle ground riding and it basically makes it ride uphill almost the same as the enduro bike, despite there still being a 10lb difference. Even when I've run same compound tyres, just wider/stronger on the enduro wheelset, I get the same effect.
Currently my trail bike has super light wheels (1600g) but even with farily stout tyres (Hillbilly 2.4 T9 Soft and Butcher 2.4 T7 Medium), they still roll/climb so much better than a typical enduro trail set. So what I've learnt is that wheel weight and sensible tyre choice makes a much bigger difference than a few lbs.
Hmm this is all good input. Thanks. I'm very wary of binning off the MM/HD set up as last time i did that i put on some Nobby Nic / Rocket Rons and they were garbage in loose stuff or mud (its the UK there is always mud) so what would be a decent grippy but better rolling combo? Would then stick these on the hardtail. Any subsequent struggles will be purely down to my fitness.
I find the tyre combo I mentioned for my trail bike (Hillbilly 2.4 T9 Soft and Butcher 2.4 T7 Medium) are a superb compromise for rolling speed/weight but decent grip and robustness.
i was always conscious that i was slower than my mates, who had been doing it longer and were also roadies 'on the side'. i decided to sacrifice comfort for speed and chose lighter bikes, so always had hardtails/singlespeeds and let my back take the beating in the peak or the trail parks (sherwood, dalby etc).
i dont regret it for a moment, i loved the skinny tubes and sleek, uncomplicated lines, i dont think ive seen a full suss bike ive actually like the look of to be honest.
havent ridden for a couple of years or more now, but i did have one ride with an e-bike riding mate. of course he caned me on the climbs but i wasnt far behind him, and there wasnt much in it on the twisty stuff.
i dont regret a minute of it, id always prefer a lighter, skinny, steel hardtail over a heavier bike.
I think a chunk of the slower climbing you are thinking is there is tyre choice.
I’ve got a V2 carbon sentinel and a recent purchase of a 2022 Trek Top Fuel carbon.
Sentinel has a 160 Lyrik, vivid coil and cascade link and right now it has a magi-x wild enduro 2.4 on the front and a Conti Xynotal 2.4 DH / Supersoft on the rear.
Trek has 120mm 34 stepcast and 120mm rear travel with a fox DPS air. Tyres are a v2 Forekaster 2.4 3c exo+ front and a rekon 2.6 3c exo+ rear with a rimpact inside.
The last 2 weekends in a row I’ve ridden at the same place / broadly the same trails and the Sentinel felt like pedalling through treacle after the trek the week before. The wild enduro especially made a real ripping sound as it rolls along tarmac and you could feel how slow rolling it was.
The only caveat is it was wetter / muddier on the sentinel ride. I don’t think I’d have fancied trying to get stopped with the rekon on the ride with the sentinel on some of the more steep / natural stuff.
There is a weight difference in the bikes too - the Sentinel is about 5-6lbs heavier.
I recently did similar to @a11y and got myself a Scott Spark - the bike is super impressive, but what I've been more impressed by was the Wicked Will tyres which it came with front and back. They are CRAZY fast compared to my standard MM/BB combo. So much so that I've ordered a Super Trail version to put on the back of my Deviate Claymore to see how that goes (because similar to you, I get dropped like a bad smell on that).
In terms of the Rocket Ron, that's a full blown XC tyre that's great in the summer, but it is NOT a UK trail tyre. I've used the WWs this whole winter in the welsh slop including a LOT of off-piste that the Spark was out of it's depth on but the tyres performed well.
A bit ... But it's more the tyres in my experience.
Particularly if either/both of your tyres are a super soft/MaxxGrip compound. Suspect Enduro or DH casings will also add slowness!
I've run the same tyres on a carbon 160/160 FS bike, and a Ti HT; the latter will be a good couple of kg's lighter, but there will be very little difference in average speed over the same ride; the pedalling effort needed to overcome the stickiness of sticky tyres feels much greater than a bit of extra weight.
But, depending on the riding you're doing, you might not want to compromise too much on the tyres.
I don't find the MM especially slow rolling. On my big bike, I tend to run a Magic Mary or Tacky Chan Ultrasoft (purple) up front, and a Tacky Chan Soft (orange) rear.
If I wanted something a bit faster rolling, eg for a big yomp in The Peak, but with still a good level of trail competence, personally I'd drop a level of softness and run something like a Tacky Chan Soft (orange) on the front and a Nobby Nic blue stripe (superground?) rear.
Just to add on tyres I’ve found the new Forekaster on the front surprisingly good so far. I wonder what having another one on the back would be like - would that pairing do an ok job? The old Forekaster v1 made a good allrounder tyre on my hardtail - found a surprising amount of grip in mucky conditions
I went through quite a long phase of often riding my ebike on group rides but having the power turned off (I preferred how it handled to my old hardtail and I used full power getting to and from the group ride on my own). Similar tyres to the hardtail but in 29" not 27.5", weight difference over 20lbs. On the hardtail I was generally at/near the front of the group uphill, on the unpowered ebike I was generally at/near the back. The weight difference feels massive in how the bike responds, particularly the first couple of pedal strokes when accelerating but the actual effect on the climbing speed is far smaller than everyone thinks.
You can check this by riding your bike uphill without a water bottle or pack, and then doing the same climb with a water bottle and pack with a reasonable load in it. Time the climbs, ideally use a heart rate or power monitor. It's also pretty straight-forward to calculate and there's lots of calculators online.
Tyres make a big difference all the time, not just when trying to increase elevation.
I built up a 130mm trail bike last summer and put Tacky Chan's on F&R and find them super fast rolling. Swapped the front to an MM for winter and it still rolls quickly.
Also could try upping tyre pressures, particularly in the rear before resorting to buying something.
Two free things go try on the Sentinel, just to see: more psi in your tyres, and more rebound on your rear shock. See how you get on.
Massively helpful as always kids. This place is great for pulling me back from daft rabbit holes. Thank you.
i will be using my mullet nukeproof mega for everything other than ebike stuff this year, aiming to move away from the 99% enduro/runs fun i do now and get back into trail and xc ish loops again.
Cant be bothered with trying to fit another bike in so its going to be a 170mm xc bike. Lighter tyres and a few more psi in the forks and shock and thats all im doing. Not really concerned with overall weight of the bike just the spinny bits, and its lighter than alot of the newer do it all bikes already.