I'd plotted what looked like an amazing, little known route in the highlands to ride with a couple of mates, however it only just occured to me to look at the total ascent and its 2700m spread over 45/50km and 4/5 big climbs depending on how we do it. I'm fairly confident that it will be mostly rideable.
I've done some big days in the hills but never thought to look at the total ascent, so whats 'big' and whats 'murderous'?
Cheers.
That's big but how accurate is the mapping? My GPS (barometric) and the mapping websites I use disagree on altitude gained, with the websites overestimating by double or more.
I did the South Downs Way from Winchester to Brighton over two days last year.
That has a total ascent of 12,000 over 100 miles...i think.
Apparently.
Its plotted on memory map/OS. I've never bothered to check the accuracy of memory map, but assuming it can swing both up and down?
Might just need to sit down and plot some of the big days I've done in the past, problem is, most of them have been with 10kg of camping gear or a trailer so I can't really compare like for like!
25 feet?
as an extreme example, this is from a recent training run (I use ridewithgps.com which uses google mapping)
Using the elevation data from your GPS, your trip has +2351 / -2334 meters gain/loss. Our elevation data shows this route has +59260 / 59261 meters gain / loss. If you feel our elevations might be more accurate...
Usually it's out by a factor of x2, but longer rides more so.
I can't remember if I've ever done 2700m in only 50km, but if it's accurate it will be a killer.
EDIT: according to garminconnect, I did 2800m in 70km last summer, took 7hrs not including an overnight bivvy.
Beinn a ghlo circuit is around 35 miles and 5000 ft of climb a sa comparison (1600m / 55 km) and takes me around 7 hrs IIRC - almost all rideable mainly easy doubletrack.
so I would say 2700 m of climb is a lot - but I would attempt it if the trails look good and if there was a possible bailout to avoid some of the climb. You are fitter than me as well
We need some equivalent of Naismiths rule for mountainbiing. You route would be what - 10 hrs +???????
Last year's Brecon Beast was 2300m in 103km
2700m in 50km sounds pretty steep to me. 😕
For reference the daily rides on the TransWales tend to be well over 2000m and 70-80km. They are pretty tough.
Absolutely none other than turning back, and the return leg involves a climb to 500m from sea level 😀if there was a possible bailout
I've plotted a route in the Pentlands taking in the five peaks, castelaw and allermuir, and it barely tickles 1000m ascent over 30km.
I think I'll treat our first ride as a recce and only do two of the climbs. Even that results in 1800m.
I've never thought what makes a more tiring ride, lots of wee sharp climbs or three or four big slogs. Guess we'll find out!
as much as possible 🙂
I've never thought what makes a more tiring ride, lots of wee sharp climbs or three or four big slogs
As a comparison, Hit The North was 2070m in 122km for me and didn't feel anywhere near as steep as Brecon Beast.
I'd go for lots of smaller climbs over a few big ones every time.
Its the intensity of the height gained that you should bear in mind.
2000m in 50km would be a tougher, more intense ride than 2500m in 80km.
That Brecon Beast ride is 2300m in 103km, I've not done it, but IMO that doesnt sound too bad, as long as you can ride the 100km. I did Isle of Wight offroad BHF ride last year, and that was 4000m over 100km.
We need some equivalent of Naismiths rule for mountainbiing. You route would be what - 10 hrs +???????
a friend of mine made a mtb version of Naismiths rule, note sure how accurate it ever could be, but you can have a play around with it here - http://www.mtb-routes.co.uk/northyorkmoors/routes/Esk-Valley-Railway/timeanddistance.aspx
Altitude gain in hill/mountainous areas can be incredibly inaccurate using tracklogs/memorymap, mainly due to how well you draw the lines. Many of the roads may contour with steep cliffs to the sides - draw your line slightly off the road and suddenly the altitude gain leaps up, as you are ascending and descending the cliff multiple times.
Some of our scary routes doing LEJOG (based on the predicted climbing) turned out to be quite gentle in reality.
Yep, fair point Beej, although these routes are all in Glens so wandering lines shouldn't contribute too much.
I think the consensus is that the amount of climbing in that distance is what will make it difficult (which I kind of suspected, 3300m on the road bike over 85 mile knackered me...).
Might need to break it to my mate gently 😀
2700m in 50k will be real tough, but if it's ridable you'll probably manage. Brecon Beast has big climbs but also a lot of road. Skyline at Afan was ment to be 2000m in about 48k but that's groomed trail and fire road. It can all be very different on unknown natural trails!
I did a similar thing in the Lakes and plotted a 45k bridleway route with 2500m climb and that turned out to be a 17 hour disaster! Although, when the pain fades you realise you still had an awesome day! Main problem there was that I didn't pay enough attention to the contours, and just because a bike is allowed there doesn't meen it should be there! 20km of hike-a-bike can seriously alter how "doable" a route is!
So basically... Beware. And respect the contours 😉
How much climbing in a 'proper' mountain ride?
[url= http://www.trans-provence.com ][b][u]9500m[/u][/b][/url] 😉
hungry monkey
that looks good and seems to give aboutthe right sort of numbers to me
Well yes, over 320km though Ash? 😉
I've just called Steve Peat to break the news to him that he isn't actually a "proper" mountain biker. He took the news quite well considering. I've passed on the details of a plumbing course at the local college, fingers crossed he finds something.
Does anyone have the address for Whistler/Blackcomb? I need to tell them that 100km of their tracks aren't actually classed as "proper" mountain biking by STW. They will probably have the administrators in tomorrow.
😀
Fairly beefy ratio there ime...
>I'm fairly confident that it will be mostly rideable.<
That's the key surely? Whether it can be ridden, the overall level of technicality and conditions on the day are going to be far more important than the bare statistics.
Ooof, just checked what the [url= http://www.handsonevents.co.uk/Events/Bealach/Mor_Route.htm ]Bealach Mor[/url] is in new money, 2926m, over 90 miles. I found that pretty tough going, but we all know MTB miles + road miles x 2.5 ish 8)
Hope there's a well stocked cake-hoose at the end mate!
It sounds a whopping amount but Jeremy's Beinn a Ghlo comparison is a good one. That's a good hard ride but most here are / would be comfortable with it. Stick an extra 1k of climbing into it and it becomes an extremely tough ride but still not out of the question to most riders. And I would guess no big deal at all to the properly fit.
In principle, though. If it's a rocky bitch of a circuit it would be purgatory trying to cram that in to a day's riding.
Your ride is an average of 11% gradient all the way around. 2700m of ascent + 2700m of descent = 5400m of altitude change in 50km = 11% average; that is both ups and downs.
GT black, which feels like entirely up or down is +/-1000m in about 27km = 7.4% average.
Are you sure the stats you have are accurate? If so, sounds like a beast.
Did 1500m in 52km in 4h 20min (all per GPS with barometric altitude) on Saturday from Pitlochry and that felt like a lot of climbing. The last climb was mostly on grass which was the real killer...
I guess a lot will depend on surface you're riding on, wind, weather etc. Go for it and if able, report back!
I've just called Steve Peat to break the news to him that he isn't actually a "proper" mountain biker. He took the news quite well considering. I've passed on the details of a plumbing course at the local college, fingers crossed he finds something.Does anyone have the address for Whistler/Blackcomb? I need to tell them that 100km of their tracks aren't actually classed as "proper" mountain biking by STW. They will probably have the administrators in tomorrow.
Yes yes, I knew 'proper' would get me into trouble, I can't even remember why I used the word 'proper' instead of just typing "how much climbing in a big long all day ride on steep rocky tracks in the vicinity of some of Scotland's most notoriously rough mountains...".
Ah, wait, now I remember.
Edit: F--- it. Sitting at the bottom of a hill on a heavy monstrosity of a bike waiting for someone to pull you up the hill is not proper mountainbiking anyway. Its 'downhill mountainbiking' or 'freeride' or something. 😈
Are you sure the stats you have are accurate? If so, sounds like a beast.
As accurate as memory map can be. To be fair though, anyone can plot a route with 1000s of metres of ascent, its riding it that counts! As far as I'm aware this one hasn't been ridden unless its by an MTBer who doesn't hang around message boards 😯
Yes yes, I knew 'proper' would get me into trouble, I can't even remember why I used the word 'proper' instead of just typing "how much climbing in a big long all day ride on steep rocky tracks in the vicinity of some of Scotland's most notoriously rough mountains...".Ah, wait, now I remember.
Edit: F--- it. Sitting at the bottom of a hill on a heavy monstrosity of a bike waiting for someone to pull you up the hill is not proper mountainbiking anyway. Its 'downhill mountainbiking' or 'freeride' or something.
ha ha, i'm only on the wind up, it was obvious what you meant 😆
on a side note, my GPS tracking went a bit funny last month and on my local 6 mile loop (which is nothing but lots of short lung busting climbs) it claimed that I had ascended 12,000m!
Might try for double that next time 🙂
Robgairrioch - by an Edge 605, the Bealach Mor was 2050m ascent/ descent in 2008 and 2020m in 2010.
Was so wet in 2009 the GPS got confused (the "blowhole" gets blocked and it goes bonkers as it can't reconcile air pressure to GPS alt data).
ha ha, i'm only on the wind up, it was obvious what you meant
Dammit, I was attempting a troll in response, I'm obviously not very good at them!
Bealach Mor was 2050m ascent/ descent in 2008 and 2020m in 2010
Wow, someone should tell their web-monkey to change the site info! Wonder if some hills were re-profiled 'twixt 08 and '10, 30m less???
>To be fair though, anyone can plot a route with 1000s of metres of ascent, its riding it that counts!<
Quite...
Come back and tell us how you got on when all that 'looks rideable to me' proved to be several hours of pushing.
😉
As TJ said, the Beinn a'Ghlo circuit is a good comparison. We did it clockwise last weekend in perfect weather with one 15 minute push section - all the rest was rideable. The Garmin log showed 54km and 890m altitude gain. Actual moving riding time was 4h 40m for averagely fit guys.
You are talking about roughly the same distance but 3x the height gain so that would be pretty tough. Factor in heavier loads and probably less easily rideable terrain and that makes it very tough but a great challenge
Scottish miles are longer anyway. That sounds like a huge undertaking. Do you have options to bail if it 'gets a bit much'?
[i]superfli - Member
I did Isle of Wight offroad BHF ride last year, and that was 4000m over 100km. [/i]
Sounds like rubbish to me!
You would be climbing the equivalent of Snowdon 3 times in a 60 mile loop of the Isle of Wight? Every 20 miles will have over 3000ft of ascent?
Too many variables for a definitive answer. My ride of Skiddaw on Saturday saw us do the best part of 5 to 6 thousand feet of climbing in the day in a fairly short distance. Lots of riding up and not so much carrying. I guess that would qualify as a proper mountain ride in my book.
So where is your route? It sounds intriguing.
Messiah made a good point that made me laugh re my Ben MacDhui round - 24 miles in over 9 hours. Walking would have indeed been quicker but where's the fun in that? 😆
Next big ride I have planned is to link Lochnagar and the surrounding munro peaks with the Loch Muick circuit. It should make for a good day.
Also planning a loop of Loch Lomond to include the Cobbler, the Coire Grogain circuit and the Three Lochs Way as a day ride. Biggish with the added bonus of having to catch the ferry at Tarbet. No idea of height gain but I do enjoy the Cobbler as a ride in itself.
Cheers
Sanny
One of the hardest rides I have done was about 2500m ascent over 70 km. The first third was 'flat' with the second third taking in Helvelyn and the final one Highstreet, so a lot of the ascent was in the final 2/3rds. It was ace but one of us resorted to using crutches to get around the next day. 4 passes in the Lakes is I think about 1600m ascent over only 20kms and that is a full day ride though.
Interested to know where this route goes also. There is only one way to find out if it is doable though right?
One of the guys I ride with sometimes carries one of those gizmo things which tells us all that information
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 🙄
I'd say the OP's post will be a reasonably tough ride. Perfectly doable, but hard work.
This is the most similar I can find on record of mine.
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Bit tired at the end but not terribly so. That was mostly offroad and singlespeed mind.
Nice ride Samuri but it doesn't look like more than 1500m climbing to me
Initial climb 350m
another just over half way of 150m
4 of approx 100m
4 of approx 50m
Thats about 1100m
Adjusting for under-estimation give 1200 to 1300m
Other bits an pieces aren't going to add up to another 1000m
To the OP - It does sound tough, there's probably a reason its a little known route 😉 Let us know how you ger on.
Never really counted manually but you might have a point, it's what memory map said.
Actually... memory map also reports that a circuit of mull on the road bike is 3300m ascent, which surprised me, but I put it down to the endless tiny little climbs. However, pretty sure 85 miles on Mull shouldn't exceed the ascent of 100 miles round the cairngorms, past two ski centres...
My mystery circuit (I'm not telling where it is till I ride it!) goes: 0 to 500m, descend to 0, 0 to 500, descend to 200, stay at 200 for a while then re-ascend to approx 600, descend to 0, 0 to 500, descend back to start at 0, I make that 1900? 800m is a pretty big discrepancy...
MM, Google Maps, Tracklogs all work fine when you're going uphill or downhill, but not when you are crossing slopes.
They work by holding a matrix of altitude data (typically a 100m grid of spot heights) and then they interpolate between them to get the height at a specific point. So on the flat it should return the right heights, and if you're pretty much going straight up a steep slope it's good too. Problem is, if you're crossing a slope then MM puts you as crossing a flat surface between its spots - a real track will pretty much be level in real life (or steadily up or steadily down on a 100m scale), but because horizontal position is "true" and vertical is "approx" it will look to the software like there are loads of little ups and downs as it wiggles about on the surface of it's elevation model.
If you want to see an extreme version of the problem, have a look in 3D at the road that runs round Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh when it's on the south side of the hill (in Tracklogs at least this is all over the shop). Or look at pretty much any view of sea cliffs - the sea will run up and down the cliffs quite a lot when you know the sea is really (for this purpose!) level in real life.
Stu_N, that makes sense actually, I manually counted the climbing on a hill walking route and it matched MM pretty accurately, but of course my hillwalking route tended to climb stuff perpendicularly.
Manually my 'monster' route (with loads of rising traverses) should only really be 1500m max, but no matter how carefully I plot MM comes back with way over 2500m.
Massively geeky way to spend the afternoon, hope the payback is a blissful rewarding loop of ancient singletrack in stunning surroundings 😉
I generally don't worry about how much climbing is involved.
What kills me is the wind we get up here.
Did 31.3 miles round Peaslake today, and Garmin Connect with elevation correction enabled reckons it was 1095m elevation gain.
3h 54mins of riding time.
The OP - Its a big ride, make sure you have a descent bail out option(s).
There is an enduro here called the Cortes 60.
65KM with 2,500m.
Its tough going, the average punter does it in 6 hours. 1 quarter of the starters dont finish.
P.S
Most people find 30ishKM with 1,000m to 1,500m a good day in the hills.
ben nevis is 1344m, so i'd take that as a shit load of climbing! rather you than me anyhow!
mind you i was gubbed after 38 miles and 350m of assent so what do i know! 😀
I think 1000m is a minimum to be classed as hilly. 1500m is a good day with upto 2000m being quite a lot.
Guess it depends what you ride (xc bike versus AM) these on too.