Oldgit.
You're full of shyt.
wet weather braking, and not grinding away a rim brake surface on the wheel, are just two very valid reasons for the bike scene to rise to the challenge and get hydraulic brakes onto road bikes.
All that BS about skill is just that. [b]BS[/b]
A gifted rider will still pull away from an [i]average[/i] rider, whatever braking / frame / tyre / any new tech / applications prevails.
Numpty !.
Bet you use to cry out against the introduction air filled tyres too.
🙄
solo - I think you have some very odd understanding of road biking - I normally get about 12-15000 miles out of a pair of wheels, used in all conditions, even in the wet. I usually get about 5,000 miles out of brake blocks. There really, really isn't any need to have hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes - commuter and touring bikes maybe, but not fast road bikes.
To change means throwing away a lot of stuff - frames/ forks and wheels - and changing the designs of things substantially to make them work with the new system.
I moved to discs on mtbs in 98 so its not like I don't adopt useful technology, and I've had a disc'd road bike for the last 2 years - it requires much more maintenance than any of my other road bikes or cx bikes to either stop the pads rubbing or just not working at all.
A gifted rider will still pull away from an average rider, whatever braking / frame / tyre / any new tech / applications prevails.
Exactly...no need for discs then? that we agree on.
And what has rim wear to do with it? just buy new rims. Rims are consumables, they wear out. I can't see the point of re designing frames, developing totally new braking systems just to save a pair of rims.
Is it the cost? how many new rims could you buy instead of a new frame, new wheels and new hydro/STI system?
aP I had a cross bike with HYDRO brakes up and running, great on trails and stuff.
Total overkill for cross, but then we are Southern crossers and we don't all ow that dreadful Northern weather down here.
Wet weather braking isn't a problem at all. Never raced and I doubt I ever will race where the riders are worried about their brakes.
I'd still prefer discs on road bikes but I certainly wouldn't spend money specifically for it - eg if I had a choice of two road bikes that were the same price and spec'd the same other than having disc or standard road brakes, I'd go for the discs.
Why - discs are fundamentally better but for road bikes, as oldgit pointed out, the benefits are much less than say for a cross bike or mtbs.
Solo you're doing yourself no favours resorting to personal insults 🙄
Bickering aside, it probably will have it's day. But when pro teams ( or so I'm lead to believe)clean out the grease from stock hubs and exchange it for light oil to get less friction, they'd surely have a full retard if a speck of grit came between a disc and pad. I've had that on my MTB. It would make the worth of something like a Dura Ace hub zero.
Anybody tried the Hope V-Twin or TRP hydro/cable brakes yet?
If so care to give a review? Not seen any reviews yet or even in the flesh....
aracer, why the contradiction?
oldgit - Member
I really really think that this is driven by want not need by completely useless folk who can't ride and are mechanically inept.
You run cantis on your mtb of course? EDIT 🙄
FURTHER EDIT: Your own bike choices are of course driven by need only, so you have no suspension, clipless pedals, gears, freewheel or pneumatic tyres? 🙄
Been on discs for the past 5 years now on my crosser after a 6 months ownership of canti crosser I would never go back. I was using a full set of pads every ride and a wheel rebuild every three months due to worn out rims.
Sure if I was trundling round a bit of parkland for 60 mins canties are fine but here in the real with big hills,kids to feed and bill to pay it makes more sense oh and wanting to stop consistently every lap ect ect discs are the only way.
Just wait they will appear in the pro peloton before long when the weight is sorted.
You run cantis on your mtb of course? EDIT
Not anymore, I was given some discs but as I only wanted an MTB for racing I was considering Avid Black Ops prior to that.
But honestly MTB'ing is a world away from cyclocross.
Perhaps it's different depending on where you are. When I race XC it's stop start, bottlenecks on singletrack, bombholes, switchbacks etc so discs make good sense. Cross races seem far more fluid, easy overtaking, wide courses and few obstacles to ride around and hard braking is positively avoided.
Road racing, for me it's simply not an issue. Wet or dry the racing is as close and fast.
I also save a bike for racing so I wear very little out. I did the thing of fart arsing about turning MTBs into road bikes and crossers into MTBs, but came to this conclusion; road bike for the road, cross bike for cross and an mtb for the trails.
Two things. How come the need for discs on crossers coincides with cross bikes becoming popular with punters, a year ago no one gave a toss.
How will discs benefit the likes of Cavendish and the pro peloton?
Anybody tried the Hope V-Twin or TRP hydro/cable brakes yet?If so care to give a review? Not seen any reviews yet or even in the flesh....
Yes, me. as mentioned earlier in the thread. not sure I should so's not to be accused having a (not so) hidden agenda, but, It makes me laugh the way people have their preconceptions about how they will/won't work despite never having tried them so....
I have been using the Hope V-twin system all season, paired with a Deda full carbon frameset and std carbon rims built onto std 6 bolt 24h hubs with 140mm rotors front and rear.
You'll be lucky to see many in the flesh, so far only about 50 sets have been made.
The best way to describe the power would be a well set up cantilever on an alu rim in the dry with Gore cables, not chuck you over the bars with the slightest touch of the lever type power. The difference being however, it's the same everytime you pull the lever no matter what you've been riding through, how dry/wet/icy/muddy the ground is.
Weight, is approx 200g per bike extra over our old set ups, this is all in converter, rotors, calipers everything.
Drag, not noticable, set them up well at the start and you can't tell anything is different, do you think the National Champion (despite his sponsor) would run discs if they were slowing him down through drag or extra weight? NO! we run the V-twins by choice and not at the request of our sponsors to sell more units, infact they hadn't even started making them when we requested them and all our carbon wheels had to be built for us from scratch.
Do you suffer from screeching brakes, fork judder, in effective brakes on carbon rims in the wet, not with these puppies! I used to suffer terrible fork judder on my old bikes due to the size of them, I used to have to start braking ages before I wanted to slow down just in case, not anymore!
Give it a couple of years and they'll be everywhere. our bikes got a LOT of interest when at the Super prestige races in Belgium, mechanics from both Sven Nijs and Stybar came over and took photo's and asked a lot of questions, the pro's want discs no matter what people think!
I reckon you're just making all that up. Race with me in top 30 and you'll be perfectly fine on cantis.
I reckon you're just making all that up. Race with me in top 30 and you'll be perfectly fine on cantis.
😆
🙄
Not top thirty, in the 30s I meant.
I machined some Shimano hydros last year, it did mean having to use bar end shifters (just like cx racing in the 70's) but the results on like for like routes were fantastic. I never raced it because I had to build it around a rather heavy Croix De fer, but it made certain terrain far easier to handle and therefore faster, but at my level it's always been about the tyre. You would lap me so perhaps requirements of top riders 'are' far greater.
My goats up because this thread sort of reminds me about the one where folk thought better riders should be handicapped, and generally lots of comments about changing stuff in sports they don't even compete in.
oldgit - Member
Two things. How come the need for discs on crossers coincides with cross bikes becoming popular with punters, a year ago no one gave a toss.
How will discs benefit the likes of Cavendish and the pro peloton?
I gave a toss 5 years ago, as did many others, you still don't see the benefits so there will be no convincing you for a couple of years until you get them and rave about them...you're only a few years behind the UCI tho.
The same way as dual pivots, indexing, clipless pedals...
I'd agree that a lot of this is down to the recent popularity of cx bikes outside of cx racing, and people's perceptions (right or wrong) of the braking power available. A lot of new 'cx' riders will have come from an MTB background so aren't familiar with cantis and their differences/inefficiencies (witness the thread the other day about road bike brakes).
But, when someone like Blazin-saddles says he won't go back, then I'm going to listen. I'm not going to rush out and change - I'll wait until full hydros are available and de-bugged as my current bikes and wheels will want replacing by then.
Cheers Blazing excellent stuff and on my list to buy.
Blazing - Any chance you could do us a favour as i cant see one in the flesh yet? Could you measure how far the reservoir extends in front of the steerer tube. I only run an 80mm stem and im worried the reservoir is quite long once attached to the bracket and will extend in front of the stem making cable routing from the bar tape awkard.
Cheers again if you can.
Sorry, do the 5x Elite World CX Championships, Numerous World Cup and International races, 12 National Championships and 12 years of National Trophies I've ridden in obviously don't give me any insight into cyclocross racing. my mistake. I'll go now!
C'mon 5 years ago? I'd not even heard mention of it three years ago. Since then this is the first season I've seen them in use. One disc on a (i think) Genesis 'aided' rider and a few blokes on Boardmans. Talking about my region BTW.
Rik. I've not seen the Hope version, but there were images around of the TRP converter. I'm guessing as TRP already have an interest in cross braking products they'll be keen to get something out PDQ
200g! that's peanuts. Is that a unique caliper and disc? Is anything imminent? as I'm racing a new frame next season. Still torn between as technically advanced as poss or fun loving luddite steel to suit my aging powers 😕
I'd agree that a lot of this is down to the recent popularity of cx bikes
Isn't that just down to the time of year?? i remember talking about it in 2005 on here.
I've had BB7's on my commuter for a year now and they've been great. I don't know if anyone can remember the start of 2010 but it literally rained every day in January and was very glad of them. They do sometimes rub and take a bit of fiddling, but that seem to be peculiar to road BB7's, the ones on the MTB don't need to the same adjusting.
i've no idea about CX/road racing scene. Would like to try CX though.
It is cross season.
And anyway how the **** am I going to sell my canti cross frame in the ads now 😡
Not sure if anyones seen it but Dave Moulton didn't seem in favour of them either (in 2010):
http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2010/10/5/why-disc-brakes.html
It'll make the wheels heavier due to tangential rather than radial spokes!
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TRP
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How will they benefit the pros ? reduced rotational mass on the rim ,better aerodynamics have you noticed how rims are getting fatter? If the breaking surface is removed the designer if free to play with all that extra space You could pull the fork legs intowards the tyre and reduce profile no worrying about mounting the calliper at the top of the fork no heating up rims we can all remember Lance doing a bit of CX to avoid Beloki whose rim had over heated and melted the tub glue dumping him on the tarmac and again better consistent breaking in the wet and that just for the road boys.
oldgit - those pics give me the horn 😉
HoratioHufnagel - Member
Not sure if anyones seen it but Dave Moulton didn't seem in favour of them either (in 2010):
http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2010/10/5/why-disc-brakes.htmlIt'll make the wheels heavier due to tangential rather than radial spokes!
Jebus, what a plum.
Yep toroidial rims.
You bunch of ******* thank God I get a good discount on Van Dessels. Sorry Sam the swingometer is starting to point toward the disc Gim & Trombones.
I guess 'oldgit' is extracting the michael and an alias I'm not familiar with.
I'll do some measurements for those that want to know tomorrow.
They use a std MTB x2 race calliper and 140mm lightweight floating rotor.
Those pics of the hope v-twin do look like is pretty long in length. That looks like a 120mm stem so with an 80mm it does look like the cable routing will be awkward with a stem that short.
Cheers Blazin - 'waits with baited breath'........
Nah just a grumpy old bastard and weary of changes. Cynical and rightly so of developments especialy until I know who's benefit they're for. And always keeping an eye out for anything that might bastardize the sport.
Anyway you are Mick Ives and I claim my £5 🙂
Mick Ives! How very dare you 😉
Yes it's a 120mm stem, 80mm might make things harder but v brake noodles or Nokon type cables would help, ours are a bit trial and error as no one had built them up before so we'd no one to copy!
I'm not necessarily sure that discs will make it onto the UCI pro road racing scene, the practicalities of getting a punctured wheel out and a new one in - what about the ones on the top of the mavic neutral service car? force all teams to swap to discs at the same time?
even if you standardise the rotor and position between the fork/dropout ends, you still run the risk of the racer being delayed while the mechanic trims the brake and then can't get back into a break/misses a time cut?
Wool - as I remember it, Beloki went over because the tarmac was melting and his front wheel washed out, but it's true that tub glue melts and heat blowouts would be less likely with discs and rims would be stiffer, aero and light without needing a braking surface
even accounting for the above, I think that discs would be a net benefit once the technology but I think the practical issues will outweigh
I've had disks on my CX bikes for years. All you really need is the front one to be honest. I went through two rims in two months with canti's one winter so that pretty much sold me on the idea. And when a rim goes when you're 20 miles from home, it's a long walk. I guess that depends on how sandy it is where you ride. Also, go for a 60-70 mile offroad cross ride in the rocky stuff and near the end you won't be able to feel your hands with canti's, you certainly won't be doing much stopping, you just can't get the same power for the same force.
Saying all that, I've just bought a cross bike with canti's, which reminded me of all these issues. 😉
They're all at it (or it's early year and the journos have nothing else to write about 🙂 )
Magura/Acros hydro brakes and gear?:
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/have-magura-and-acros-teamed-to-develop-a-fully-hydraulic-road-group-32838
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/01/04/magura-teases-something-road-oriented-hydraulic-brakes-perhaps/
TRP Parabox review:
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/01/03/trp-parabox-hydraulic-disc-brake-converter-unboxed-weighed-changes-coming/
Hope V-Twin
http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/12/28/hope-tech-v-twin-cyclocross-hydraulic-disc-brakes-now-shipping/
on of the things attracting me to try some cx riding/racing is the simplicity of the bikes.
one thing I'm total convinced of though is tubeless - whats the crack with tubeless and cx bikes?
I'd suggest that rather than hijacking this thread you start a new one which I'll happily contribute to 🙂
(though this thread may be a good starter: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-tyres-for-tubeless-cx )
For a short period last year I had two cross bikes, a Yeti on Canti's which were soon swapped for mini-vs and an Airbourne using BB7 cable discs.
Whilst I enjoy building bikes up, I hate setting up brakes. The bb7's were a fit and forget situation, the canti's (frog legs) and the v's were a nightmare, I could never get them to sit without rubbing and swapping between wheels (carbon tubs and much wider open pro's for training on) was a right ball-ache due to the difference in width of the rim.
The braking power of discs was far superior in all conditions and the weight wasn't noticeable for me.
For anything off-road, winter training based or touring I'd never go back to canti's. For racing on the road I'd stick with rim brakes, for me personally I've never found them lacking in power. I also much prefer the look of a lightweight road bike free of clutter.
I'd suggest that rather than hijacking this thread you start a new one which I'll happily contribute to
I own this thread 😛
You think that just because you're the OP, you can do whatever you want 🙄
😉
one thing I'm total convinced of though is tubeless - whats the crack with tubeless and cx bikes?
For racing that would be the one thing I'm not convinced of! I'm a Tubular man through and through, you can't beat them or even get close for racing. For training I just use tubes, but being as I have disc brakes I can just use the wheels off my 29er (crest)
