[Closed] How do you train to go faster over long distances?

combination of long slow z2 rides and hell for leather intervals in zone 4 and 5.

if time poor avoid junk miles in z3.

riding in z2 is alot lower pace than you think when you start off - but the goal is to grow this.

you need to develop your z2 so that your relaxed pace is in your comfort zone.

if you dont have a heart rate monitor/other means of measuring IE power. you might as well just ride lots and throw quantity at it as your stabbing in the dark with respect to where you are working.

eat well and be sure to let your self recover.

Without trying to be flippant, by trying to ride harder for longer.

On a smaller scale, I'm trying to improve to hold ~300W+ over 30mins on the turbo, to possibly complete a cat2 hill next year in under 30mins. I managed to complete Virtugo's Col De Soller in 19mins44secs the other week, my best power to date (305W).

As @trail_rat says: a combination of "easy" rides for the distance aspect and interval training to raise the speed. The former let you get used to riding long distances, the latter improve your efficiency and power so you can ride harder for longer. What you don't do is just try to ride hard for longer as you'll just break yourself.

Work out your Heart Rate Zones and unless you are doing intervals then stick in Z2. Your hard rides should be very hard and your easy rides easy, don't fall in to the trap of making every ride a hard workout.

No-one (well maybe fully trained pro riders) can ride 100 miles at full effort you have to ride at a sustainable pace. That's at your aerobic threshold, the way to raise it is to raise your max power which drags everything up with it (eventually) hence the intervals targeting hard efforts. How hard should the efforts be? Well the track cyclists on the BC programme have sick buckets by the side of the track for their sessions. That hard.

What trail rat said (edit, and whitestone while I typed).

trying to ride harder for longer.

Flippancy aside, you need more structure than that. Trying to do a lot of long hard rides just wears you out - only do what you need to check your ability vs your aims as your training progresses. Any more than that may give you mental confidence but is likely to fatigue you as much as gain fitness.

In simplest terms what you need to do is take the pace/output you can ride all-day now without undue stress, and increase it. You do that with 2 things mainly - Z2 base type miles that condition you to be efficient over long periods on the bike without causing excess fatigue, and a weekly HIT session that develops your cardio / power.
That HIT session needs to be good though, it should break you in the way that you can only do it once a week without impacting the other work. Worth looking up FTP test methods and doing that test yourself a few times to get an idea of where you're at, thats a good session for long dist training in itself. I've had some good results from longer intervals that aim to develop your overall working rate - spending 25-35 mins total at over the FTP level, eg 5x 5min intervals with 'rest' in between the interval at a high level, stay in Z4.
I'd throw in some SS MTB work, CX or similar for variety in the week and to get strength up, plus there are tricks to help develop strength during those long Z2 rides also. Take the long view on this kind of training and you will see results.

Pretty much what they said, although I'm not "fast" I sure as hell can maintain a good pace over a long distance / time.

Lots of nice easy miles interspersed with nearly death on a bike intervals, you get faster, but it doesn't get easier or feel like it especially if you ride solo a lot, you won't really notice it until you ride with mates who don't have the same targets.

Over winter I try and do longish road miles with track and turbo sessions to build speed, I also race CX. Then comes the building phase of longer rides with proper efforts chucked in, then it all just falls into place. Don't forget good rest and diet are also essential, but dont go all super meat healthy not drinking unless you don't want to enjoy life, you're not a pro after all.

Some info about training zones here: https://tombell.co/cycling-training-zones/

Try stopping less. Cutting down wasted stop time makes a big difference to the miles in a day.

There's no real short-cuts and depends a lot on where you're starting from - really helps to develop a good base level of fitness over a winter / 6 months - it helps develop the strength in your muscles / tendons to take on high-intensity stuff. If you start doing high-intensity / HIIT stuff without a good 'base' you can easily end up with inflammatory injuries. Mixing it up between road / offroad helps too - road often easier to manage the level of intensity particularly in winter.

3 hour hard rides where you finish really knackered as often as possible if you're time poor. Long slow rides will just make you ride slow

@anagallis_arvensis - read the posts above for why this isn't a good idea and isn't the best use of time.

@epicyclo - true. On last year's HT550 Neil Beltchenko finished in 3d10hr22 with a total stopped time of 13hrs! I finished in 5d2hr with a total stopped time of 44hrs. Thus my riding time was only 9hrs longer than his. In 2016 I did the YD300 in 32hr, in 2017 I did it in just under 29hr, the moving time for both was within a minute, the rest of the saved time was (lack of) stoppages.

No-one (well maybe fully trained pro riders) can ride 100 miles at full effort

This; and not even pros can. Because that's the point- at FULL effort it doesn't matter who you are, there is a finite capacity to work at that level, and it's measured in minutes and seconds. The difference between the pros and the mere mortals is not a huge difference in the capacity to work at any particular effort level, it comes down to what they can output at that effort level (in W or W/kg)  Plus they have also learned the ability to suffer the pain of trying really hard beyond that point where we give up.... but that doesn't particularly result in massive differences in the time they can spend at those levels.  So if you want to get faster you need to build your output and that usually means intervals and over/unders to increase your FTP as others have said.

In the most sterile of environments for a bike racer - the hour record for example - they're not riding at or even near full effort, they're at the level that they've worked out they can sustain for exactly 60 minutes. Or rather 55 minutes followed by five minutes of that bit above about clinging on when mortals fall over and puke their ring up.

[In an odd way when Geraint or Froome ride up a big hill they are doing it at the same relative effort level as you and I, it's just that their W/kg output for that effort level (say Z3/4 with some Z5 efforts if they were racing) results in a vastly different speed result. Which in turn means they can clear a big climb by riding at Z4 for about 45 minutes whereas it'll take me twice as long. Working 'equivalently hard' for double the time makes me twice as tough as them, surely?]

There are 2 schools of thought at the moment.
Traditional is the long distance, plus short hard efforts in a 90-10 split or 80 - 20.

New thought is the time crunched school (like trainer road), which talk about doing most time in sweet spot, but less hours per week.
The trainer road guys talk about Nate doing a sub 9 hour Leadville on sweet spot rides with a max duration of 2 hours.

My issue with the sweet spot work is lack of time on bike, to work all aspects of your riding.

3 hour hard rides where you finish really knackered as often as possible if you’re time poor. Long slow rides will just make you ride slow

Wrong, ime. That's what I used to do. I didn't get any good at long distance stuff until I stopped doing that. 3hrs is too long to use as HIT and too short for endurance adaptation. Whether you need the LSD for adaptation seems up for debate but it certainly has worked for me and the long slow rides will only make you slow if you skip the HIT part of training.

There's less data about sweet spot training - it may simply be the body reacting to a novel stimulus rather than the regimen itself.

I'm starting to think along the lines of steady rides outside to get the base miles in: mostly z2 with very occasional efforts in z4 if the terrain dictates but a good dose of z1 immediately after to recover. Allied to these would be a couple of turbo sessions each week of no more than an hour to ninety minutes to do really hard workouts.

Try stopping less. Cutting down wasted stop time makes a big difference to the miles in a day.

This was the biggest difference for me on audaxes. My quickest times on 200km+ rides have been in the last year, even though I'm less fit and my moving average speed is down. Toilet, eat, refill bottle, get back on bike.

In terms of improving my moving speed, I found that focussed short sessions helped, of 1-2 hours with at least two all-out hill climbs.

"3 hour hard rides where you finish really knackered as often as possible if you’re time poor. Long slow rides will just make you ride slow"

How's your palmares coming along on that regime ?

There are a couple of folk in here I know do long fast rides with podium results.

Generally they all disagree with you.

read the posts above for why this isn’t a good idea and isn’t the best use of time.

I dont agree, the op doesnt sound like an elite racer and doesnt want to race. He wants to build endurance if you have a reasonable base fannying around slowly for hours is a waste of time.

3hrs is too long to use as HIT and too short for endurance adaptation.

True it would need to be mixed up. Good solid half hour efforts and some shorter ones mixed in. Basically a good fast club run where everyone gives it the beans up hills and for the last 15miles or so would help the time pressed op and his mate. As long as you know how to fuel yourself lots of long rides area waste.

How’s your palmares coming along on that regime ?

My palmares stopped coming along about 15 years ago not sure how thats relevant, not sure the op wants to race.

It's always a race.... against yourlself!

Cheers for the input, keep the opinions coming.

8It’s always a race…. against yourlself!

I am usually winning then!

I've been thinking about this based on my experiences this year. I tend to go a bit too hard on most of my rides, can't think of any off road riding around here where Z2 is going to be the default. So this winter I'm going to do some Z2 twiddling for a couple of hours once or twice a week on the turbo, and use outside riding as Z3 with some Z4 hard efforts.

This year I ended up getting very fatigued towards the end of the summer, unsurprisingly. So the main aim is to keep the weight off over the winter, and hopefully get to March with a bit of base fitness for longer rides, as I want to be able to do consecutive hilly 70-80 mile days off road.

I didn't see where the op wanted to ride fastish for three hours either.

The palmares thing was more you have a number of people who ARE fast over long distances proven fact telling you how they achieved it.

It's being rubbished and branded a waste of time by your self.

I assumed you might have results to back up what your saying.

I assumed you might have results to back up what your saying.

Back in the day I'd whoop your whiney ass for sure!!

Most people who are really fast are just talented the training is a lesser factor.

I didn’t see where the op wanted to ride fastish for three hours either.

He didnt, but he did say he was time pressed so telling him he needs to do long rides in order to get fitter over 100miles is pointless. Presuming you have a reasonable base which his post suggests then shorter harder rides will give the best benefit. The long rides and long rides back to back will help plan fuelling and hydration but you dont need many.

No-one is saying that the OP has to do long rides just that his longer rides should be in zone 2 at most.

You say he should do "shorter, harder rides" but three hours isn't short enough nor can it be hard/intense enough. "Half hour efforts" won't be hard enough to have effect plus there are few locations in the UK where you can ride for half an hour at a sustained effort without some traffic/lights/junctions get in the way.

Half hour efforts” won’t be hard enough to have effect plus there are few locations in the UK where you can ride for half an hour at a sustained effort without some traffic/lights/junctions get in the way

We have a literal **** tonne of 10 mile tt courses in the UK and most of them are not on massive dual carriageways!! Add a mile or 2 at the beginning or end and you can easily do a 30min vomit inducing effort.

I guess the trick in getting a 'training plan' or prep of some sort right is to get it right for what you want. I can do a 100-150 mile mixed terrain day at a reasonable pace but even when fitter it wasn't what I was trained for, plenty of riders would go a lot faster. My training was biased towards being able to repeat it over a number of days and I'd compromised some 6 or 12hr pace to adapt to that kind of endurance.
The Z2 + HIT theory seems to work well for becoming an efficient rider over long days but you'd need to adjust it to focus on 2 days back to back compared to 2 weeks. I'm not sure how you'd do that but I suspect it's mostly about the base/mixed/HIT ride proportions - less base and more mixed/HIT, or maybe just move on from the base mile focus earlier in the plan.

One thing I like about 6hr Z2 rides is how it slowly adjusts your sense of distance. When you do them fairly regularly in winter and spring you end up not seeing the 80-90 miles as much at all and 100+ milers become mentally far easier.

The distances that you are talking about are extreme. I would say that working Z4/5 is going to have very little affect on your speed over a 150 mile ride because you will spend little or no time in Z4/5 during a ride of that distance. There's no point raising your FTP when you're FTP is not the limiting factor. A ride of that distance will be mostly Z1/2.

You need to train your muscular and metabolic endurance, which really can only be improved by doing long training rides of a distance similar to the one you are looking to improve.

More importantly though, it sounds like your mental attitude is not right. Most likely you will blow up on a 100+ mile ride, you may well blow up multiple times - I know I certainly have. After that is when the training starts!

A couple of years ago a mate did RideLondon and got round in just under 4hrs based on nothing more than a diet of crit racing. He had the ability to sit there in the bunch, saving energy, dipping fractionally into the red every once in a while to close a gap or move up but then using the "micro-recovery" slots when it all calmed down a bit. He'd done very little in the way of longer rides - maybe a couple of club runs - but he was crit racing at fast circuits like Lee Valley, Hillingdon and Palace 2-3 times a week throughout spring and summer and that stood him in perfect stead for 100 miles at 25+ mph average.

The problem is with "training" is that most people don't do their easy rides easy enough or their hard rides hard enough and to be fair it's very difficult to smash out distances / speeds by yourself, you almost always have to be in a race situation to focus the mind a bit.

There’s no point raising your FTP when you’re FTP is not the limiting factor.

I disagree. Yes, to do long days and long back-to-back days you will have to maximise the time spent in Z1-3 and only occasionally dipping into Z4 and avoiding Z5 altogether, but by increasing your FTP then your output in all zones increases. And that's how you get faster, by getting more efficient / effective in terms of output per effort.

The palmares thing was more you have a number of people who ARE fast over long distances proven fact telling you how they achieved it.

I'm currently the eleventh fastest person in the country over 12 hours. Now back in training for next year's objectives. I'm afraid you will not want to hear it. I ride 14 hours a week at about 2/3 FTP. That's 200-220 Watts for me. Typically four rides of 100 km in 3:30, ideally less (30 km/hr is a nice pace). I mix it up fixed and geared, solo and club rides (normally harder). For top end work, I race circuit races (see crazy-legs comment above). These are 1 hour HIIT efforts at about FTP.

The only training for fast long times in saddle is...

Sorry.

PS = here's this morning's ride https://www.strava.com/activities/2021374368

I try and get out for 06:30 if I can.

I disagree. Yes, to do long days and long back-to-back days you will have to maximise the time spent in Z1-3 and only occasionally dipping into Z4 and avoiding Z5 altogether, but by increasing your FTP then your output in all zones increases. And that’s how you get faster, by getting more efficient / effective in terms of output per effort.

What you're saying is true, but in this case, because of the extreme distance, increasing Z2 by (for example) 10 watts will have very little impact if he cannot sustain Z2 for the hours needed to complete the distance. If the OP is doing this off road then the time taken could well be over 10 hours. Holding even low Z2 for 10 hours will require a decent amount of training. Seeing as he is time limited I think he is better off spending as much time as possible just riding long very distances and therefore he will maximise is efficiency at lower watts. I would go on to say that whenever a longer ride is not possible due to time constraints, then Z3 will be the most valuable training, not only for physical endurance, but it will also help to develop the mental discipline that is required for very long efforts.

Stopping less really is a good strategy. I've done a few long rides over the years and you can try and increase your average while pedalling but if you spend an hour faffing then it will be impossible to recover.

The next one is pacing. Practice to get this right. You need to be comfortable through out the ride not dying at the end as this is slower. Same idea as a 10mTT don't just go flat out and hold on as it is faster to hold back and be more consistent.

Comfort and food - work on what you are going to eat. High intensity riding might no mix well with certain foods. My tastes change over a ride - simple foods go down better towards the end. You can't ride fast if you are hungry and thirsty. Same with comfort, you'll be slow if your back hurts etc.

As for training I just did a lot of volume. Some long distance rides trying to keep the pace high. Mixed with some shorter rides at a very high pace. Basically because that is all I could fit in.

Logging big mileage might look impressive on social media but it’s probably not the most effective way to improve your cycling.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/article/20181011-Training-Plans-Beginner-Related-Junk-miles-and-how-to-avoid-them-0

Jamz

Yes if it was about how to do long rides, but the op already has has that capability. The question was how to do them faster.

: How do you train to go faster over long distances?.- on an exercise bike in a gym?
No way am I spending 6 hrs riding through sideways rain at 6'c to pick up .8mph av over a 100 mile sportive. You can stick rule 79 where the sun dont shine or whatever number it is riding in bad weather makes you well 'ard. No it makes you ill, and more likely to stay ill, or injured by some dozy cow worried about her crackers not matching her side plates on her festive tablespread runner

The gym has reasonable bikes with huuuuge saddles , watts , hrm, speed? distance on the display. timers and programs for hills, sprints , watts etc . Also well equipped gym with many torture devices. And it empty so I could, theoretically sit on a bike for 4hrs and churn away at 110bpm. Although i dont think this is great for mental health .

Some info about training zones here:> https://tombell.co/cycling-training-zones/ < I know his Mrs who is a pretty decent ultra marathon runner. She trains slowly with a few interval sessions chucked in, probably ratio 8-2. I asked if Tom is always out on his bike (pretty handy mtb xc racer) and she said not 3hr easy rides, and then much shorter techy training on the mtb.

 

The question was how to do them faster.

You get faster by going slower 😃

 

No way am I spending 6 hrs riding through sideways rain at 6’c

No, that would be daft..

but in this case, because of the extreme distance, increasing Z2 by (for example) 10 watts will have very little impact if he cannot sustain Z2 for the hours needed to complete the distance.

150 miles isn't really an extreme distance, you'd want to be able to ride Z2 (60-70%) for that. Audaxers of all ages do it most weekends.
The idea that you work to raise your output at the top end to elevate your cruising pace at the low end seems to be well established training practice though. How you do that is the Q.

How you do that is the Q.

Training at Z2 develops mitochondria, training at VO2max fattens and widens those. More and more efficient mitochondria = better and faster z2.

Long rides also support bike comfort over time, mental strength and feeding strategies over the distance.

Training at Z2 develops mitochondria, training at VO2max fattens and widens those. More and more efficient mitochondria = better and faster z2.

Long rides also support bike comfort over time, mental strength and feeding strategies over the distance.

It's hard though from both a time perspective and an enthusiasm context too, plodding plodding at Z2. There are days i can happily do it, sunny ones, warm and i've got the afternoon off etc.. but trying that in a bleak winter drizzle.. I just don't see how people can do it 🙂

My quickest times on 200km+ rides have been in the last year, even though I’m less fit and my moving average speed is down. Toilet, eat, refill bottle, get back on bike.

No pub lunches then? 🙁

My other half did Dirty Kanza last year (~206? mikes off road) & most of her training was low intensity stuff, but reasonably long rides.

it wasn't just doing it the traditional way to build a big base up, it was also for her to get her head into having to be on a bike for 14 hours straight.

Once you're fit enough, I imagine that's probably the biggest battle 🙂

How you do that is the Q.

Training at Z2 develops mitochondria...

Sure, I mean how as in what mix of Z2 and HIT you do to get to your own definition of 'long distance' fast.

@TiRed - your 100km rides are just over 25% of your target distance/time so in your context they aren't "long". Also using 3 - 3.5hrs for one steady ride on a time restricted schedule isn't the best IMO.

@jameso - yep, the audaxers certainly clock up the miles, mention Eddington numbers on YACF and the responses are well over 100! (That's an exclamation mark not 100 factorial😛)

What the OP hasn't told us (as far as I can see, it might be in here somewhere) is what pace he (or his mate) rode the 100 miler and what pace he'd like to ride. "Faster" is just a bit nebulous really, would 0.1kmh faster be good enough? 1kmh? 5kmh? Without knowing that, and his/their average pace for shorter distances there's a lot of guesswork. There's no point in aiming for a 30kmh avg if their pace over 50km/30m is 25kmh for example.

Without being able to ride fast over shorter distances you aren't going to get your longer distance speed higher hence the emphasis on short, very hard, efforts to raise your lactate threshold, FTP, etc. Doing this will also start to move the boundaries between each zone upwards as your whole physiology gets better. My FTP is in the 300W range so the upper limit of zone 2 I'd be riding at 225W. If I raised my FTP to 400W then my zone 2 limit would be 300W, i.e. I'd be able to ride "all day" at my old hour pace.

There is of course much debate. But the uncomfortable truth is that people have limited time. I personally believe that time spent training at the effort needed is what matters. I need to ride at 210-220 watts )25 mph on the TT bike), sustaining that for long periods (3 hrs) can only help with the longer endurance events (12 hrs). That said some Z4 workouts are always helpful and probably do raise the threshold. The Z2/z4 splitting may be an efficient way, but it may not be the best way if you can spare the time. If you believe area under the power time curve is a constant, you can up the power for a shorter period. Sadly it is not linear, but follows a power law distribution.

And yes I have the BC coaching badges, it’s just that a coaching program to finish a 1hr circuit race or a 100 mile sportive is not going to be the same as 300 miles in 12 hours.

If you have the base fitness for 100 miles, it’s time to start pushing on I’m afraid. That’s where my power meter and heart rate help me. They stop me dropping off the pace. Riding at tempo (Z3) over three hours (100 km) will see you faster over 100 miles. Do it twice a week. The z4 stuff brings fast gains but I don’t believe you’ll get to the same plateau.