We had a building survey completed a few weeks before buying and subsequently moving into our new (old) house. The survey listed the retaining wall at the rear of the property as being 'in good condition', however after moving in a few weeks ago, l noticed a substantial crack running diagonally across the wall. The house is built on the side of a hill in a 'tiered' fashion, with the retaining wall holding in the patio layed around the base of the house itself. The house is over 150 years old, so l imagine the foundations are mostly made of pixie dust.
Cue mild panic stations.
The surveyor (RICS qualified) came around again to assess the wall and said that it 'should be ok, but l would re-point it and put some tell tales (measuring strips) across the crack to see if it progresses.' This has been done, and l am also in the process of relaying the patio at the top to prevent water ingress (it wasn't pointed between the flagstones).
I have phoned my solicitor and he has suggested writing a letter to the surveyor recording the situation, and his suggestions to repair the wall. The solicitor has suggested that if there is any fast degradtion of the condition of the wall, then l may potentially be able to pursue the surveyor for costs of rebuild. He also admitted that the longer it takes for any degradtion to appear, the less chance l have of a comeback.
The problem is that if this showed up on the survey first time around, we most likely wouldn't have bought the house. Insurance doesn't cover retaining walls unless the house itself shows signs of subsidence.
Any thoughts?
Depends on type of survey you commissioned.
typically you have 3 levels of survey. Mortgage lenders one (Cheapy - with zero come back), mid level survey typically £300-£550 (again usually endless disclaimers and zero comeback).
Full structural survey arranged independently of your lender - cost upwards of £700. This would attach liabilities to the surveyor to record their observations and by exception attract a liability if they failed to spot something that would be reasonable for them to have seen (i.e. it didn't necessitate disrupting the decor, lifting floor coverings, etc).
An outside retaining wall with a large crack does sound like a clear miss on the part of the surveyor, if you commissioned a full structural survey. I would write to them, putting them on notice of your dis-satisfaction with their survey, specifically pointing out the cracking to this retaining wall, include a photo or 2 with your correspondence. I would then ask for their proposals on how they will make good the situation and see what they come back with.
Hope this helps and hope you didn't do a cheapy survey....
[i]Any thoughts? [/i]
go back to your solicitor, have a meeting explain the situation and ask for their advice.
if the crack was as visible as you say and you can prove it was there when the surveyor saw it (google earth/estate agent particulars) then you may have a good case for them being negligent for not at least recording it (more so as they say it was in 'good' condition.
having said that I can imagine suing a surveyor via their professional indemnity insurance is an object lesson in burocracy and frustration so I'd treat that as a last resort and try and get them 'on board' for any remedial work that is done.
Yep. As above. Any survey arranged by or on behalf of your mortgage provider isn't worth zip.
Argghh! We had the 'mid-level' survey done ie non structural. In addition, l have now pointed the crack and dont have a photo.
Is it still worth following it up ie asking for his proposals etc? If he comes back with his suggestions, what would l then do? Would he be liable for the costs?
this reminds me of a situation mt brother found himself in a few years ago...he bought a restaurant which he then renovated and whilst doing so found a massive crack in the gable end wall running up from the foundation that the surveyor spotted but decided not to comment on...the surveyor even took a photo of the wall for his report....this cost £90k to fix as the whole gable end had to be pulled down and rebuilt from the foundation upwards....the surveyor eventually admitted liability especially when in court he didnt have a response for why he took a picture of the wall with the visible crack and failed to comment on it...anyway after a 2 year court case they eventually paid out.....surveyore are covered by liability insurance should they get it wrong so you should take this up with them via your solicitor..
a substantial crack running diagonally across the wall
What's substantial? How wide is the crack?
'should be ok, but l would re-point it and put some tell tales (measuring strips) across the crack to see if it progresses
If this is what the second surveyor said then I'd not worry about it becoming an issue. In order to cover there arse they'll always err on the side of caution and he sounds unphased.
Did the first surveyor really miss it or did he think it wasn't a problem?
As above, frankly even a full structural survey isn't worth that much. If you read the small print of the surveyors contract you'll understand.
If you saw the crack the surveyor certainly should have, being a bit obnoxious if you saw it now did you not look before ?
I would push the surveyor but IMO he's not going to offer uo much in the way of an "admission" nor is he going to refer this to his indemnity insurers without a lot of pressure from you.
I don't like the sound of - just repoint the wall - I would get another specific detailed engineering type survey done on the wall.
I suspect the most efficient thing for you to do is pay for a repair, it will cost quite a lot just for your solicitor to read the contract and write a few letters.
Sorry to hear about this
How did you not spot the crack yourself?
If this is what the second surveyor said then I'd not worry about it becoming an issue
Its the same surveyor second time around. I think i'll get another surveyor around - if he thinks its fine, then l wont worry. If he doesn't, then i'll pursue the first one.
Thanks!
How did you not spot the crack yourself?
Its a rough sandstone wall with uneven joints and surfaces. The crack was at the far end of the wall behind a tree - you'd have to actually go looking for it to see it.
[i]you'd have to actually go looking for it to see it.[/i]
which is the surveyors get out 🙁
There'll be somethign in the small print about any defects being visible to the surveyor without having to leave their car or something (well not quite but but certainly they wouldn;t get their shoes muddy for a mid-priced survey).
The crack was at the far end of the wall behind a tree
What kind of tree , and how big .....
What kind of tree , and how big .....
Fairly twig like. As a surveyor, l would have expected him to look along the full length of the wall, not just at one end and come to the conclusion of 'yep, all good here'!
If you are going to pursue them then write them a letter saying that you intend to claim against them. He will be required to notify his PI insurers immediately of a notice of intended claim otherwise he loses his cover. Just ask for the detail of his PII and the provider at the same time
Although if its not moving, does it matter?
BTW We live in an old property with many cracks etc.
Did you point with lime morter?
i wasnt implying that its an excuse for him not looking behind it.
I was more implying and it could be root damage as oppose ground movement ?
Virtually everyone I know who has bought anything but a new house has had major problems and outlay fixing mulitiple issues that were not spotted by the surveyor.
I'm not very experienced in this matter, so could someone explain what they actually do for the fee? Is it just a valuation exercise to keep the mortgage lender happy?
We had a full structural survey from eSurvey. After moving in we had a huge leak through a glass extension that was missing any flashing. This has required replastering and redecorating a dining room.
We made a claim from the surveyor and they were fair and are paying for the remedial work. It is probably of no help, bit this was through Cartus, the relocation firm, who use eSurvey as a preferred provider (hence would want a good outcome).
In other circumstances, I'd call back the surveyor, then find a claims company to handle the claim.
the fact that the survey failed to spot that the utility room sink had no drainage plumbing is another matter 🙄 .
pisstake really[i]you'd have to actually go looking for it to see it.[/i]which is the surveyors get out
so why pay for the full hit if they aren't really going to actually properly look at stuff?spot something that would be reasonable for them to have seen (i.e. it didn't necessitate disrupting the decor, lifting floor coverings, etc)
I paid for an upgraded survey, he asked the residents can I see the loft was told no so didn't check, can I look under floor boards? no. Surevy ended up the standard yes it has a front and back wall, some windows with glass in, few loose tiles and the ubiquitous "get some damp proofing work".
base level essential(?)
mid level no point
top level little point and cost a bomb.
Having said that, my mate had a survey it said 2 car parking spots on the drive, semi house turns out the second spot was actually a shared one with nextdoor, got some maney back for that. Dunno which survey or how much he got back.
Typically surveyors are useless.
A while back, we had an offer on a house and got the mid level survey. As we expected, there were some things wrong with the place so we got a builder in to give us an idea what they'd cost to fix.
He spotted a LOAD of other things that would have cost a fortune to fix - bowing retaining walls and various others that while not obvious to most people certainly should have been spotted by a survey. We didn't buy that house.
I'd now get a builder round to do a survey rather than a surveyor.
it sounds like people are using surveys to pick up the basics
alot of whats been covered here id be kicking my self if i hadnt asked those questions - ie car parking in the post above .....
ok cracks and flashing - thats fair enough but commom , common sense folks , throwing money at someone doesnt absolve you of all responsibility to check what your buying.
throwing money at someone doesnt absolve you of all responsibility to check what your buying.
You cant check over every last nook and cranny when buying a house. I made a point of checking over all the surfaces of the house when we visited it - I still didn't see anything of note, but then l'm not an engineer / builder / surveyor.
I'm sure you'll agree that its only living with / in something that you learn it's quirks and faults.
At the end of the day you expect a 'surveyor' (clue's in the name) to do his / her job properly.
im not referring to your op cracks and movement are fair game but the fella above "the surveyor stated it had two parking spaces - it only actually had 1 and a shared"
You cant check over every last nook and cranny when buying a house.
its probably the most expensive thing you'll ever buy, why not?
"You cant check over every last nook and cranny when buying a house.
its probably the most expensive thing you'll ever buy, why not?
"
I did , but im an engineer who has spent a previous life as a builders labourer.
so far we have been stung with a bit of dodgy electrics by the previous guy , everything else we have done was noted in our own surveys of the place.
but not everyone is in this position i understand that. But my solicitor would have been the guy i would have shot for the parking guffaw above - not the surveyor - the solicitors the guy that reads the deeds , and if you didnt ask him about the carparking situation then ........
I've uncovered all sorts of joys in my place.
the current one is a hearth that under the tiles, appears to be made from wall plaster...
I agree with everyone else - most Surveys aren't worth the paper they are printed on - and the whole surveying industry is a bit of a spoof.
I had the full structural on the house we are in (bought 3 years ago) the surveyor (who had a PhD in Surveying) failed to spot the completely knackered patio doors (which cost us 3k to replace) and the brick wall in the back garden that fell over when I lent against it (huge 6' high wall, which would have killed my kids if it had fallen on them)
I'd never, ever waste my money on a survey again unless I was buying something very unusual (ie listed building/ancient monument) and even then i'd be reluctant.
Sorry OP - but I think you've been hit by a smooth criminal...
At the moment you appear to be seeking to apportion blame and possibly to claim some form of recompense. I would suggest that what you need to establish first is potentially how much of a problem it actually is.
We cannot comment on here because we have not inspected the wall or it's environs. If it is of serious concern to you, get a civil engineering surveyor in who can advise on suitability of the existing retaining wall for the job it is meant to be doing and whether there is any fault and if that fault needs repair.
This inspection will cost you money; however, if as a result of a further survey it is shown that the original surveyor has been negligent then you may have a claim aginst his indemnity insurance (which as a member of the RICS he [i]will[/i] have). If it is found that there appears to be no problem then you will have bought some peace of mind 8)
Agree with Psling. Currently no proven loss to claim against.
throwing money at a professional who is trained (presumably) to look at the right things and ask the right questions. Most people look at a house, the rooms, the area and buy what they like the look of, they haven't got the foggiest about engineering, structure and materials (myself included) hence surveys. The fact that we pay a reasonable amount of money and they don't actually do the job is somewhat gallingthrowing money at someone doesnt absolve you of all responsibility to check what your buying.
psling - making enquiries imbetween typing this out!
Thanks all, i'll leave you to argue amongst yourselves. In fact, this makes me chuckle as to people's conflicted viewpoints:
jam bo: You cant check over every last nook and cranny when buying a house.its probably the most expensive thing you'll ever buy, why not?
then...
jam - bo: I've uncovered all sorts of joys in my place.the current one is a hearth that under the tiles, appears to be made from wall plaster...
I'll leave now...
Sure. hardly a deal breaker and unlikely to make the house fall down. I bought a 130 yr old house so I was expecting a certain amount of 'character'
I doubt any survey in the world would have picked that up , expert , amatuer , great or crap .
... archeological [Time Team stylee]?? 😉