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Coming backup one of my local trails yesterday and be confronted with two horseriders coming down it.
The trail itself is pretty steep and in winter can be quite slippery, usually to the point of having to push and walk.
The trail is rendered virtually unrideable in winter due to riders coming down it, digging great clods out of the trail surface. There were also 4ft long skids where the hooves had failed to find grip.
I tend to be fairly selective on which trails I ride during the winter when the ground conditions are wet and soft, but it appears that the horseriders down our way dont share this view. Rendering a number of trails completely impassible on a bike and on foot. 😯
Come the summer this often renders some of the steeper trails virtually unrideable as they are stepped once the horse generated clag has dried off.
I'd like to try and engage with the local horseriding community to try and minimise this sort of damage and erosion, but I fear that this would probably be counter productinve and just create a rod for my own back and damage relations further between bikers and horseriders.
Your thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.
I can only sympathise. Its a similar story round away, but that's due to our having very few bridleways so its difficult to fault them for it. We got utterly screwed in the 40s when the designations were made. For us the result is trails strewn with loose rocks. The ground get churned up, water washed the soil away leaving rocks behind. I do litle bits of trail repair work, usually drainage related, wonder if walkers/horse riders ever do given each camp contains factions keen to paint us as the villains.
I suppose for the rider they are not in contact with the trail surface so may be less aware of it. But from what you describe its dangerous to take horses down there in winter.
Horses for courses
I'm sure there are stretches of bridleway that are much harder to walk because of the puddle-widening antics of us riders, and we occasionally leave massive skid marks, spinning out damage and ruts on steeper sections. I can think of a number of trails around my way which are like this.
If conditions were OK for you to ride it yesterday, then it's hard for me to see how you could tell horse riders not to do the same. The bridleway network is as crap for them as it is for us - perhaps they're just desperate to get out and ride, it's been a long winter.
I suppose for the rider they are not in contact with the trail surface so may be less aware of it. But from what you describe its dangerous to take horses down there in winter.
Their call, just like it's our call whether or not to ride a difficult section.
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Their call, just like it's our call whether or not to ride a difficult section.
If I fall and ding my bike the bike doesn't suffer pain and distress.
OP describes 4ft long hoof skids. But equally possible rider got half way down before realising, dismounted and walked that horse down the rest of the trail and has not returned because it wasn't suitable. Tracks don't tell the full story.
But yeah, crappy network only concentrates usage and increases effects of horse usage (and bike usage).
If conditions were OK for you to ride it yesterday, then it's hard for me to see how you could tell horse riders not to do the same. The bridleway network is as crap for them as it is for us - perhaps they're just desperate to get out and ride, it's been a long winter.
Not really, we knew we'd be walking once it got steeper anyway. My point was they were coming down the bit we were walking up.
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N ahhh uhu, no sympathy from me.
It's not your trail, it's all of ours.
Live and let live and give way, don't be a selfish gonk.
OP describes 4ft long hoof skids. But equally possible rider got half way down before realising, dismounted and walked that horse down the rest of the trail and has not returned because it wasn't suitable. Tracks don't tell the full story.
This might be a valid arguement, but I heard the rider remark to her mate on the other "we havent ridden dowen this one for a while". This path is regualrly ruined in the winter by riding horses down it. There are others which are steeper and completely ruinned during winter. I wouldnt walk down them, let alone ride them when they are in this state.
Live and let live and give way, don't be a selfish gonk.
Eh? Why are you rambling on about giving way? We did. Why am I being selfish?
I appreciate there is only some many trails around for all of us top use. My point being that it would be appropriate and responsible NOT to ride some of them during the wetter months.
Not really, we knew we'd be walking once it got steeper anyway. My point was they were coming down the bit we were walking up.
I see. So, horse rider radskillz envy? 🙂
In reply to unclehomered, yes, to me, 4ft skids does suggest a certain lack of control, but I can't ride a horse and I'm conscious of what non bike-riders think of me when they see me mincing down some technical doo-dah. Saw someone ride a horse down the true bridleway line from Embsay Crag a few years back.
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I was staggered what a horse could be capable of.
One of my off road commutes home is through an area with a lot of stables. The trails are absolutely mangled on some of the steeper downhills.
Personally I find it greatly enlivens things
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Nope, ride it if you can, it's there for ALL to enjoy, not just the few...
You just have to live and let live. Neddie riders are more impressed that we give way and we don't give ourselves he moniker of noisy nobs.
Here in the South Downs we have masses of neddies, thankfully they are all nice and lovely people who Always I mean ALWAYS say Hi/Good Morning/Evening (whatever) they ride trials I ride and thankfully so, I'd hate to think I'd put them off enjoying the Great Outdoors by being a gonk and whining about them enjoying themselves.
I just don't get the attitude, sorry 🙄
Had so many unnecessary run ins with horse riders, just got to be thankful that there are bridle ways that we are allowed to ride and by using them we have to share with others.
My stance on this has recently changed but to be fair I was being a selfish pillock back then.
Got to agree with Bikebouy on this. I encounter Dobbin riders all the time. I just stop and let them through, saying hello as I do. They've always been lovely and polite, and I've never seen a hint of a confrontational attitude
Fell Runners though? Now they scare me. They've all got that Vietnam vet style 1000 yard stare. I suspect that a lot of them have killed, and more worryingly, will kill again. I always give 'em a wide birth. I reckon there's plenty of bodies under those moors 😯
Pik n Mix - Member
Had so many unnecessary run ins with horse riders
Had a couple of very fun run ins with horse riders. Have found they have wonderfully strong thighs and pelvic floor muscles 8)
Oh, and no real sympathy for the OP from me either - horsers struggle to find places to ride as well, probably more so than we do. Horses are much harder to transport than bikes, not good around busy roads so all round much more restricted in which bridleways they can access and ride...
I'm sure they realise they're doing damage to the trails but continue to do so as either they don't care or more likely don't really have any other options apart from riding on the road all the time. Sucks but I doubt you'll get very far by engaging with the local horse-riding community, same as walkers wouldn't get very far asking MTBers to stay off bridleways in winter so we don't leave pesky tyre marks all over the place.
It should also be pointed out that its far easier to lift a bike over a stile on to a footpath than a horse.....
[i]Coming backup one of my local trails yesterday[/i]
We accept bridle ways in an " as seen condition" cant really have a moan just because your chosen recreational vehicle isn't suitable for the prevailing conditions.
Ok, let me just clarify what Im actually saying, not what people think im saying.
Im not advocating banning them or preventing access anywhere (gee gee's deffo have cheeky trails too).
I have no issue with pulling over to let horsists pass. Im not confrontational and am quite happy to share the trails.
Im simply suggesting that they avoid certain trails when the ground conditions are soft and muddy to avoid making the trail impassible to everyone else.
I also accept that there is a certain amount of hypocrisy going on here as well. But I'd wager that a bike ridden over the same trails will not leave any serious damage other than a few tyre tracks if ridden properly.
Sorry but I find you attitude cruel and inconsiderate.
Posting a sunny pic of embsay cragg when I'm working all week and not going to have time to ride... That's just mean... 🙁
At others, Rights of way are there for Resposible Use - and to me that does include avoiding when conditions are so bad that you damage the trail by riding it. Whatever you're riding. That would also most likely mean its ridable sooner in the Spring.
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Kev - was that an attempt at this....
Long before the bicycle was invented horses had all the trails to themselves. Then in the 19th century the trails started to become metalled, so that the newfangled bicycle could use them, and then the motor car came along and sped up the process further. Those trails are now called roads and they're not a fun place to be on a horse. There are bridleways and green lanes and suchlike for horses to use. Horses can't really do much 'cheeky riding' because they can't climb over stiles or fences, so unless you're on open hill country you're confined to the limited bridleway network.
Some people will avoid certain trails when the ground conditions are bad, some people won't. Doesn't matter whether they're on foot, horse or bike.
you should be glad you've got a ROW at all, found out today that one of the few we have locally could be closed permanently due to "old mine" workings. Real bummer as it provides useful uninterrupted offroad access, I'm not happy 🙁
Klunk, thats pretty poor, but I dont think Id fancy plummetting 100ft down an old mineshaft.
Going back to my question, can anyone provide any suggestions? Or is it just a case of tough shit?
You could try contacting your local highways agency, I doubt they will do anything though.
If the bridleway is getting really churned up it will be a risk to the horses so the riders should be in favour of improvements - maybe try lobbying them for some support?
I'd like to try and engage with the local horseriding community to try and minimise this sort of damage and erosion, but I fear that this would probably be counter productinve and just create a rod for my own back and damage relations further between bikers and horseriders.
Personally I believe you have answered your own question. just think what would happen if a local 'orse rider came to your "club" (association, group meeting in the pub, what-ever), how do you think there suggestion that you not ride certain trails would be taken?
That's not to suggest your idea is wrong, but IMO it's unlikely to be taken on board in a good way.
riders should be in favour of improvements - maybe try lobbying them for some support?
TBH from what I hear via my partner, any 'improvement' by local councils , tend to be just to create bland motorways (have you seen the many thread on here about 'improved' paths), which no-one likes/wants
Constructively maybe go and talk to your local right of way officer, and see what there take on it is
TBH from what I hear via my partner, any 'improvement' by local councils , tend to be just to create bland motorways
I guess you have to apply a generous dose of ‘be careful what you wish for’ but from my experience of the same problem the trails were reduced to completely useless axle deep mud baths for several months of the year, anything would have been better than that.
The 'solution' of chucking a load of straw on top of the mud really wasn't ideal though!
Horses do make a bit of a mess of my commute in the winter but it's as nothing compared to what the farmer does with his tractors.
I can live with the churned up trails, annoying though they are. What gets my goat is when the local horseriderists build little jumps on some of the best single track.
Im simply suggesting that they avoid certain trails when the ground conditions are soft and muddy to avoid making the trail impassible to everyone else.
Unfortunately the crux of the matter is that it's not a shared trail - It's a bridleway. (Or at least I'm assuming it is)
As mtber's we are effectively a parasitic user of these trails, living off the few minor rights we've been granted. If I were a horse rider and riding though winter didn't effect the quality of riding for me in summer then I wouldn't stop because it meant it dissuaded a few mtbers from riding.
It's not fair, but then few things in life are.
I suppose it also boils down to who represents our interests, oh nobody!
As far as I know if horses weren't allowed on the trails then neither are bikes.
Sounds like they're just using the wrong shoes for their horses, they should try a mud-specific shoe made of special expensive steel, or maybe go nail-less for extra grip.
Basically what IanMunro said. Assuming its a bridleway there is very little you can do especially as there is only a statutory responsibility for bridleways to be of a standard suitable for horses and not bikes.
Maybe they were at the top, decided to risk it but got off half way to walk down - understandable if it was too far to turn around and retrace their steps. Dunno.
Annoying, but I'm sure there's a singletrackhorse forum somewhere with the occasional gripe about bikes making a mess / what shoes for bridleways / etc 🙂
Horses are just giant rabbits with a saddle. Would you want to ride a big bunny?
I read the OP simply as saying it would be nice if these riders had given the same thought to their impact on the trial under the conditions as the bikers had.
I'm often impressed with the awareness & concern by MTBers about riding in the wet. We can only help to inform others on this.
For example:
http://baildonmoor.org/wordpress/?page_id=173
All these inconsiderate equestrians should just stick their animals under a sheet at the back of the garage for the winter. It's what I do with my bikes.
Would you want to ride a big bunny?
Absolutely! Imagine taking one down to the local dirt jumps! 🙂
Horses are pretty shit really. They are old technology. They are dangerous, dumb, inefficient and do not serve any constructive purpose in urban environments other than ingredients.
They may serve some purpose in rural settings and should remain there.
It still astounds me why anybody in their right mind would sit atop a 1000lb animal [b]that is terrified by a plastic bag![/b]
Nutters, the lot of 'em
@ mrelectric, I think part of the reason for that is we're often attacked for all manner of selfish behaviour. By way of defending ourselves we have to be seen to be responsible to try and get the opposition onside.
This tends to mean we have to be a bit OTT in order to get recognition that we're not all cretins skidding round coners and digging up local beauty spots.
hugor, I live on the isle of wight which is predominantly rural.
Basically what IanMunro said. Assuming its a bridleway there is very little you can do especially as there is only a statutory responsibility for bridleways to be of a standard suitable for horses and not bikes.
Bridleways should also be accessible on foot, which, by the sounds of things, this one isn't. That's the way I read the OP's post - it's not just about him being able to ride the route, or not, on his MTB, it's about the overall impact to all users...