[Closed] Hmm. E-MTBs: I think I may have ridden the future, and an apology to Mark

You can turn the battery off and just ride em like a normal (pretty heavy) bike.
I have one, it's great for what i use it for, I would hesitate to say its as good as a 'normal' bike tho.
They 'accelerate' more easily, but they don't 'respond' like a non ebike does.
Mine is no slouch, but it would be no match for a fit rider on a decent bike.
Ive said this before, re the motorbike arguments, my last bike (kawasaki zzr1100) had 93.212kw, my ebike has 0.250kw, plus my meagre extra output, thats like comparing a family hatchback with a bugatti veyron.
Possibly interesting to note, i use a garmin to log my rides, including hr data, and it informs me that the bike that gets ridden the hardest is my ebike (according to hr data)
This did surprise me tbh, I wonder if anyone else has experienced the same.

This did surprise me tbh, I wonder if anyone else has experienced the same.

CRC did back to back testing, in an hour of riding the ebike version of 2 otherwise identical bikes (focus iirc) went further, got the riders max hr higher and the top speed being the same.

I have to say, I've been 'lying to myself'

This time 15 months ago, I had a fleet/stable/quiver/arsenal of very expensive bikes, but never rode them, as I was hilariously unfit, because of this I didn't go on group rides, as I'd have everyone waiting around, but then didn't go on solo rides as I didn't enjoy them because every ride felt like a 110% effort beasting. A vicious cycle (heh)

Demoed an ebike. Ordered one more or less immediately. Started riding. Started enjoying group rides, started really enjoying solo rides (as I didn't need to hold back. I never steam off into the distance if I'm on it, as I'm not a dick with it). Started using ebike as a training tool, reducing the level of assist. Became fit enough to keep up with group rides on normal bikes. Gone on to be one of the front riders on group rides. I'm now flirting with getting koms (not got an 'all time' one yet, but got a couple of 'fastest for the year so far' ones.) I'm willing to bet that I've done more endurance xc races this year than a few of the 'purist' ebike haters.

My point (thanks for getting this far...) is that none of this would have happened without the ebike. I'd be sat looking at a pile of normal bikes worth more than the average new car, rather than actually riding them, wishing I had the motivation to get fitter.

Incidentally, the ebike is still used as a training tool. By mstomhoward. To beast me up hill reps. 😡

Ridden two and ridden with one.

Charging up tough climbs getting to the top with lungs full of air is nice.

N Plus One could happen that's all I'm sayin.

If a Tesla is a motorcar, then surely an ebike is a motorbike, no?

Personally, I don't care too much, one less car and all, but...normally, to achieve reasonably fast average speeds (20mph+) on a commute requires a reasonable amount of time in the saddle building fitness and skills...you're used to those speeds and are comfortable around others with them. Recently I've seen quite a few de-restricted ebikes (they've overtaken me at 25mph and don't appear to be breathing hard at all) ploughing along shard use cycle paths at frankly ridiculous speeds, trying to overtake cyclists who themselves are overtaking a pedestrian or another (slower) cyclist. or overtaking into the path of another cyclist. ebike commuters are to cyclists, what mopeds are to motorbikers.

the only way the tesla analogy works is if tesla added power assist to a car that would otherwise be powered the same way as this one...

[img] [/img]

I'm an Ebike rider, also got my normal (soon to be extinct) enduro. I'm not overwieght (10stone), not disabled (both arms and legs), and I'm really fit. I still l love riding my Levo just because it's fast and fun. I come from a motocross background and trust me, these aren't motorbikes . Most of the people moaning on here and calling them that, haven't rode either a motorbike or an Ebike! They are getting more and more popular and I'm not saying people will be forced into buying one, but once all the manufactures are producing and selling more Ebikes, you might be hard pressed to find a conventional one. Yes ok, certain brands like Santa Cruz and Yeti, etc properly won't produce one. But the mass brands will. And they'll get better . And they'll get cheaper. As I mentioned above I've come from a motocross background and in the early 2000's they intruduced four strokes into modern mainstream product (basically allowing twice the displacement to compete with a 2 stroke) now at the beginning they weren't faster , were cumbersome and wasn't relaiable . Only took them about 5-6 years to get top side, and fast forward to present day....2 strokes are as dead as dinosaurs , the super fast guys that smoked everyone on 2 strokes are still super fast guys on four strokes!! All the haters gonna hate..but you'll be in the minointy soon.
(Im proberbly that guy blasting Pines on my Levo BTW!!)

Really?......are you honestly attempting to play that game?, I'm just back in from a 27 mile ride 50% off-road/50% road on my Scott E-Genius including 2211 ft of climbing, I'd love to be able to ride that route as i used to on my SS but unfortunatley MS has left me unable to walk further than a few yards at a time

I don't think anyone is suggesting people with a genuine need shouldn't be riding e-bikes.

I also think (hope) that they become a genuine alternative to cars for people who wouldn't normally cycle to work/the shops etc. Yes they're environmentally harmful vs a bike, but they're bound to be better than a car simply due to being much, much lighter.

What does slightly get my goat is that the industry seems to be pushing e-mtbs as some sort of sub-category of bicycle. Bicycles are human-powered. E-mtbs are not, they're off road mopeds.

I don't think anyone is suggesting people with a genuine need shouldn't be riding e-bikes.

I also think (hope) that they become a genuine alternative to cars for people who wouldn't normally cycle to work/the shops etc. Yes they're environmentally harmful vs a bike, but they're bound to be better than a car simply due to being much, much lighter.

What does slightly get my goat is that the industry seems to be pushing e-mtbs as some sort of sub-category of bicycle. Bicycles are human-powered. E-mtbs are not, they're off road mopeds.

Does it matter though ? The actual definition of what an e-bike is or isn't... I'm confused as to why this seems to be such a point of contention for you and others on here?

Generally I hate them
Because - too many unskilled and inexperienced people have unrestricted ones over here in Norway and are using them to commute to and from work on the cycle paths

These numpties are hitting 35km an hour on the cycle paths and cutting corners and ringing their bells to pi55 off and warn people they are going too fast and causing quite a number of accidents

I have never ever seen one being used offroad

Does it matter though ?

In the grand scheme of things? No, it doesn't.

But this is a discussion forum, there wouldn't be much to talk about if we only discussed life or death issues.

It's a bike with a motor, so yes, it's a 'motorbike'. No arguing there.

I had a demo Cube E Nutrail fatbike out last weekend, borrowed to give to my MS suffering brother for a ride.

What a blast! From my nephew (7) to my father (67) it was ridden by a range of people who haven't ridden in years and all came off with huge grins 🙂

I've promised myself one for my 50th, nine years away. They'll be even more awesome by then. Lighter, faster and rangier hopefully.

They'll be even more awesome by then. Lighter, faster and rangier hopefully.

You may have gone the other way over the same period 😀

I have never tried one - but recognise they are the future.
The potential to enjoy the climbs as much as the descents ... only downside is the potential maintenance problems/costs.

I'd definitely have one - if I could afford one.

Mrs BigJohn got one last week and it means we can ride together at my choice of pace and distance for the first time in years. And she can demonstrate the annoying thing of stopping at the top of the hill and riding off as soon as I get there.
I still preferred my Sunday ride with mates on my Cotic Soul, but I guess I'll get one in a couple of years. The tech will be better then too.

What does slightly get my goat is that the industry seems to be pushing e-mtbs as some sort of sub-category of bicycle. Bicycles are human-powered. E-mtbs are not, they're off road mopeds.

Ebikes are human powered - if you don't put power in yourself by turning the pedals they do not move at all (unless you're pointing downhill). They are electrically assisted, that's all.

Ive said this before, re the motorbike arguments, my last bike (kawasaki zzr1100) had 93.212kw, my ebike has 0.250kw, plus my meagre extra output, thats like comparing a family hatchback with a bugatti veyron.

Um, not sure what your point is...

The Veyron is a very fast car, and the hatchback is very slow but is still commonly known as a "car".

The kawasaki is a jolly fast and powerful (and manly) motorbike. Whereas the one with only a 250W motor is very slow, but is also known as a motorbike.

Cool, so we're agreed. It's a motorbike then.

Cool, so we're agreed

You've convinced the government to change the law? That was fast! Or do they still (as they always have) disagree?

my last bike (kawasaki zzr1100) had 93.212kw, my ebike has 0.250kw, plus my meagre extra output, thats like comparing a family hatchback with a bugatti veyron

One of my old mates rides trials bikes (motorbike trials) he's a pretty good amateur, been doing it for about 25 yrs give or take. Anyway latest acquisition is this.. and he's absolutely loving it. The club he's in we're very sceptical and at first banned it, but two more blokes have bought them and now they ride the less technical sections and are having a blast.. he's even considering doing the SDW on it and wants me to accompany him on my CXer.. I've got no chance of keeping up, but I'd seriously love a blat on it..
[img] [/img]

he's even considering doing the SDW

NO, no, no.

You see these mutatants and use like what he is considering are what give the anti-Ebike lobby grounds for complaint and blur the lines. These things do what they think conventional Emtbs do. That thing has a top speed of 37mph! I'm sure it is a blast to ride but there is no place for it on Bridleways etc.

NO, no, no.

Why not, it's fun and it allows people to go further. 🙄

Good that people care, but my there's some vitriol.

My partner has one. She's fit (yes, both senses) and it totally makes sense for her. Living in N.Wales it means we can both head out for long rides and she can enjoy the day, rather than bust a lung and struggle home at the end. She also commutes distances that she wouldn't otherwise. Also, what hasn't been said in this thread is how good e-bikes are for scouting new trails. Brilliant inventions.

Why not, it's fun and it allows people to go further.

🙄 indeed. Just like driving at 80 through towns and villages. Why dont more people do that, I wonder?

Why not, it's fun and it allows people to go further. 🙄

give the anti-Ebike lobby grounds for complaint and blur the lines.

But... it's a bike.

Ok, I know all the arguments, I know because I'm an avid reader on here about the pro-con debate. I know there are a lot of folks for-against them and so on..

But it's progress, it think it's right that we encourage ebikes to widen the appeal of cycling and utilising what we have. I don't really come from an exclusion background, I'm more inclusive type. I've come across many ebikes on the SDW, because mainly I ride it a lot. But I ride it hard, I probably tear up as much Trail as they would during a soft loamy day with my Limus on. And those folks I've seen on the trail appear to be normal outgoing types, those who care as much as I do about ecology and erosion and such. I've yet to see one at QECP though, but soon I'm sure I will.

But the SDW is a bridleway, we all know that. Horses use it too you know and they have always been on it, seen plenty of rutted crappy carry bike sections because of them, but I care less about that and think "nice, good to see someone else is outdoors enjoying life"

The argument will rage on, debate pot marked with "whataboutery" for years.

But I support them.

But the SDW is a bridleway, we all know that. Horses use it too you know and they have always been on it, seen plenty of rutted crappy carry bike sections because of them, but I care less about that and think "nice, good to see someone else is outdoors enjoying life"

The argument will rage on, debate pot marked with "whataboutery" for years.

But I support them.

I think you missed the point. E bike on the SDW absolutely fine by me. Totally legal and capped at 15mph with pedal assist so it is in keeping with the wakers, the runners and those horses you mentioned. That thing you posted has a limited max speed of 37mph. It would be illegal to use on the SDW and would be totally inappropriate to be going at those speeds mixed with other users. I'm all for E bikes and E MTBs, but that thing is not one, it's a different class again.

I've just done some research on this Brinco my mates bought. And this is the definition:

The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles regulations 2015 mean that the Brinco R isn’t legal on UK roads as a bicycle as the motor exceeds 250 watts and 15.5mph and it doesn’t meet regulations as a moped or motorcycle either so currently if you want to stay within the law, you can only ride the Brinco R on private ground

If he asks again about the SDW on this thing I'll tell him he can borrow my spare CXer instead.

So that's cleared that up then, well on this Bronco bike.

But..

I do support ebikes, by that definition.

After a demo on an eMTB a few months back I new one would be in my future soon enough; ended up buying one last week.

I actually quite enjoy beasting myself up road climbs (even have a local KOM!) on Zwift or even on the commute but for some reason never have on the MTB. It's always been more about the fresh air, the views and the descents for me and the eMTB gives me all the fun with none of the pain - after all that's why I use the uplift at BPW or chairlifts in the Alps (unlike the haterz on here who no doubt sweat & grunt unassisted up every climb to earn their descents 🙂 )

I have zero interest in converting anyone, suffice to say it is awesome and possibly the best bike/hobby purchase I've ever made 8)

(Oh and to the guy complaining about some theoretical, non-existent problem in the Surry Hills - there's already a very real problem there, and it's nothing to do with e-bikes - or with bikes at all, I suspect - but the attitudes of a few people riding them & what they choose to do on land that doesn't belong to them.)

. I'm all for E bikes and E MTBs, but that thing is not one, it's a different class again

So it is an Ebike or a motorbike? Or a bit of both? A more powerful Ebike?

Meh.

37mph. It would be illegal to use on the SDW and would be totally inappropriate to be going at those speeds mixed with other users.

I hit faster than that on loads of descents at the weekend on the SDW 😉

chiefgrooveguru - Member

Motorbikes work without pedalling. Ebikes don't.

#Fakenews!

New ones don't, existing ones can.

Silly to call them motorbikes though, motorbikes don't have pedals.

They're mopeds.

@convert it will only be fun compared to an ebike, it would be pretty tame compared to a real motorbike. Id also say 'no no no' to doing the sdw on it but for a different reason, namely 'terrain that is great on an mtb, or e mtb, will be pretty shit on a proper motorbike'
Imho.
Fwiw, ive had mine chipped, so I can turn off the speed limiter if i choose, honestly, don't bother with this, it doesn't make the bike any better, it hammers the battery, the thrill of being able to hit 20mph plus wears off pretty quickly, also if involved in an accident you're riding an unlicensed uninsured untaxed moped. The only way these things can be considered motorbikes is in a technical sense, they are a bike, they do have a motor, but they aren't designed to do the speeds that even a basic motor bike can do.

Ok, I know all the arguments, I know because I'm an avid reader on here about the pro-con debate. I know there are a lot of folks for-against them and so on..

And there is the rub. You are a relatively informed member of the cycling community, let alone the general public, and yet you were still pretty ignorant about E-bikes and what's ok and what's not. This is where the misconceptions come from. You are pretty glass half full and naturally accepting of others so you thought it would be ok for your friend to use it where he proposed; there are plenty of others of a more nimby/grumpy old man persuasion that dismiss them through a similar level of ignorance you had.

It would be interesting to know if your friend who bought it realises the SDW (and QECP) is off limits to him. Given that it can't be ridden on the road either and his trails club only begrudgingly take him you have got to wonder if £5K spent on it is very good value.

Well, clearly you are not quite a reader as I thought you once were. ^^ is an expalination post about my post about the Bronco. I did a bit of research see, so whilst I may sit in the ignorance seats at the back.. it ain't for long.. so shuv over in your high tower of huge bableness.

However, ignorant I am. Sure I don't get the "whataboutery" brigades lack of inclusion. We're a community of humans enjoying the environment whilst we still have it, for that reason alone I support ebikes.
Damn if the charge was longer than about 65miles I'd be tempted to hack one over there today, as it's a lovely day for riding a bike.. but I might do it East/West to get better averages as it's windy that way n'all.

I definitely see the point for people who's health or age means that an eBike gets them out when they'd struggle without assitance. I think eBikes are fantastic for that and fully expect to end up with one myself at some point - although hopefully not for a few years yet.

I can also see the point for people who's main interest in mountain biking is the downhill stuff and either aren't interested in the fitness side of things or just view an eBike as an uplift alternative, to get more runs in.

I am concerned about the potential impact on access once eBikes become cheaper and more popular though. The removal of the "fitness" barrier to entry for proper mountain biking could well mean an upsurge in the number of arseholes on the trails (in a similar way to the born again motorcyclsts can have on the roads on sunny Sundays) with a potential backlash from that.

I think you missed the point. E bike on the SDW absolutely fine by me. Totally legal and capped* at 15mph with pedal assist so it is in keeping with the wakers, the runners and those horses you mentioned. That thing you posted has a limited max speed of 37mph. It would be illegal to use on the SDW and would be totally inappropriate to be going at those speeds mixed with other users. I'm all for E bikes and E MTBs, but that thing is not one, it's a different class again.

Hmmm, what's the top speed of a Horse? is it appropriate to have a (legal) horse cantering along at Xmph on the SDW mixed with other users, especially when a horse *can* be harder to bring to a controlled stop and is a LOT heavier...of course not, but then we don't use the top speed of a horse and worse case scenario behaviour arguments to ban them do we, we expect people to ride sensibly, tackle the behaviour not the vehicle.

Once again it's not about what you *could* do it's about what you should and shouldn't do. I'd have just as much issue with a non e-bike or horse barelling along at 30+ mph when there are gaggles of walkers nearby as I would that Bultaco.

In the same vein I'd have no issue with that Bultaco being ridden at a lazy 7mph tootling along all day, even though It's illegal based on the rules, and I do understand the need for the distinctions and classifications in law.

I can see both sides of the argument but the issue isn't so much the capabilities of the devices, it's the sensibilities of the user, and people can be dicks on normal bikes and horses too, fortunately most of them aren't.

As you say though convert, there's enough grey areas and misinformation/misunderstanding from the general public and riders alike about what isn't and isn't allowed, even when behaving yourself 😉

If there is a genuine problem with the people** riding eBikes also riding in an inappropriate or dangerous manner then that [b]does [/b]need addressing, but it's perfectly possible to ride an eBike sensibly and at less than max speed, more about the rider than the bike.

*Even then on the legal eBikes the assistance cap of 15mph doens't stop it going faster under your own power, just like a normal bike...

**I don't really think there is, most of the people I've come across on eBikes are as courteous and sensible as they would be on a normal bike, and most of the people I've come across riding inappropriately on them are the kind of people who are also arseholes on a normal bike.

Well, clearly you are not quite a reader as I thought you once were. ^^ is an expalination post about my post about the Bronco. I did a bit of research see, so whilst I may sit in the ignorance seats at the back.. it ain't for long.. so shuv over in your high tower of huge bableness.

You're struggling this morning 😉

Of course I read what about the research you did. Did you spot my use of the word 'were' in relation to your ignorance? But it took someone saying no to your assumption to make you bother doing it. You are not on the ignorant step now, but you were an hour ago despite being 'an avid reader' who 'knew all the arguments'. 😉

Please don't read it as having a pop at you though. Just using you as an example of someone involved in a debate about the things and with a clear position on their validity without full possession of the facts. Plenty of others in the same situation who are ardent nay sayers who don't really know what they are talking about either.

I'm glad you are inclusive towards them though - I wish more were.

but it's perfectly possible to ride an eBike sensibly and at less than max speed, more about the rider than the bike.

Perfectly possible to ride this Bultaco sensibly and at less than max speed too.

[img] [/img]

Honestly the amount of people who have never ridden and bike and/or motorbike spouting complete drivel.

I don't own one but at least I've tried....

The difference is quite easy to tell, just ride a proper bike, then a e-bike then a motor bike. Obviously motorbiking can be strenuous in itself but the bike feels like a bike... not at all like a motor bike.

After that is completely up to the individual how they use that.. you can switch to turbo on every slight incline or flat or not...

Of interest to me is the fact this will allow me to keep up with my son as he and I get both older but that doesn't mean when I finally do crack I'll just let the bike do all the work but realistically when I'm mid 60's and he's 18-21 (supposing he continues the way he does) no amount of training is going to let me ride with him.

If you take that image I suppose I could keep up with him on a motorbike....
But which of those will keep me fittest and which will be most like riding a (non assisted) bike????

They sound great to me, but as someone who basically assembles bikes out a mix of ebay and sale stuff, it's a part of the MTB market I feel I'm priced out of (even more so now i have a young baby)

Presumably buying 2nd hand has more issues too. I'm happy fixing most stuff on bikes, but repairing motors, electronics or refurbishing batteries is probably beyond me.

At what point does it become worthwhile getting an e-bike? 1k? 2k? 3k?

I guess the 1k stuff is poverty spec and more compromised downhill??

convert - Member
Of course I read what about the research you did. Did you spot my use of the word 'were' in relation to your ignorance? But it took someone saying no to your assumption to make you bother doing it. You are not on the ignorant step now, but you were an hour ago despite being 'an avid reader' who 'knew all the arguments'.

Please don't read it as having a pop at you though.

Oh, you are right. I was ignorant at the status of the Bronco. See, I don't see why I should be that worried. All my mate said was " I bought this e-trials bike, have a go its blooming ace, Nahhh.. just ride with the club on them..." Then sent me a pic.. It has peddles, and I thought 'niiiiice' then looked on the Bultaco website and watched the vids.. thought "yeah" I like that.

It's OK to have a pop at me, I feel honoured you bothered to bring it, and me, up in one of your posts. 😀

And, I looked at one of these last week.. not in this immaculate condition £1750.

[img] [/img]

You won't believe how close I was to buying it. SDW at night? No one will ever know I've been up there..

And stands back....

E trials bike

Edit: That was meant for google! I wouldn't mind one. I'd be quite happy with sticking to byways, helmeted, as necessary. I've got a Beta 250 and it's good for messing around on byways (as well as actual trials). I do feel conflicted about using it though, with the possible impact of noise and fumes on other's enjoyment of the AONB. An e-trials bike would be great.

We went out for a ride over Cannock chase last night. Not the built trails but the fun stuff near Milford. At first I was faster on the downs, but bugger me, as she got used to it she was going nearly as fast there too. Apparently, the extra weight made it feel much more stable and "planted" compared to her lightweight bike.
Best £2000 spend evva!

alpin - Member

.

I'm all for E bikes and E MTBs, but that thing is not one, it's a different class again

So it is an Ebike or a motorbike? Or a bit of both? A more powerful Ebike?

Meh.

It fits none of the classes so is not legal to ride anywhere in the UK bar on private land with the landowners permission. Its not an ebike as its too powerful and too fast - and its not a (leghal) motorbike because it does not meet construction and use regs - like minimotos or motocross bikes

not at all like a motor bike.

Apart from being a bike with a motor.