[Closed] Hmm. E-MTBs: I think I may have ridden the future, and an apology to Mark

Funny you should post this! I just got back from St Anton and had the pleasure of a day on a Rotwild ebike courtesy of Jennewein Sports! Managed 1200m of ascent over 6 miles to head up the Rendl Piste and on towards Damatadter Hutte.

As I had a bit of man flu and a knee issue this made the whole thing accessible to me whereas it wouldn't have been without the E. and the way back down.... well you're on a very capable trail bike. A few little "naughty sections" - I think they were for walkers but as none around I was dropping this thing around tight singletrack, flights of stairs and natural steps. Absolute blast.

I think that's the key, it allows those who might not be the fittest to enjoy mountain biking.

Some other take their enjoyment from the feeling of riding up hills. Horses for courses.

They really are that good.

I'd have one if I had the money.

it allows those who might not be the fittest to enjoy mountain biking.

Fit people can and do ride them too, if you think its impossible to hurt yourself uphill on an ebike you havent ridden one.

If you want to pedal hills you can. You control the amount of power. You still get a work out if you want one. But you can just cover twice the ground in the same time period.

I get it. They're amazing fun. I've had a go on one and had an absolute blast.

But I've had a go on trials bikes in the past, and had an absolute blast on them too. Who the hell doesn't like a bit of an engine to make things easier?

Easier = lots of fun. More fun. For longer. There's no argument. It just is.

But we're all lying to ourselves if we say, sat upon our "e-mtb"s that they'e not motorbikes, that we will stay as fit, that they won't be used for shorter rides, that in some way the strip mining for the rare-earth metals that are required is environmentally responsible (or the energy requirements).

There's a motor. It's motor-biking. Period.

Yes - it's motor biking on mountain bike trails. But it's motor-biking. And there's a big industry that sees the dollars and sees that non-motorbike MTB riders are the people who are going to be tempted, and stuff the downsides - there's money to be made.

And fair enough. It's not a moral judgement (other than the environmental arguments - but humans gonna do what humans gonna do). But stop with the "it allows those who might not be the fittest to enjoy mountain biking" guff.

The six perfectly fit guys on e-mtb's doing a single lap of the "red" at Sherwood Pines on motorbikes yesterday weren't "not the fittest" - nor are the majority of the hordes you see tearing round the Dark Peak, or Llandegla.

Who am I to argue? People can have fun. But stop lying to yourselves that it's good for the environment or your waists. 🙂

It certainly wouldn't replace my standard bike. But it would get you a lot fitter than a 10 mile commute in a car.

Yeah. It would also get you a lot fitter than <insert self-justifying sedentary activity here>.

It won't get you fitter than the non-motorbike you left in the garage though. 'cause when you're knackered you've got no choice but to pedal it, eh?

That "no choice" bit is important. We live in an obeseogenic environment - if people can choose MTB fun without as much MTB effort then people will do so. And that's fine.

I'm all for them. I'm against the lying to yourselves tho. It's bloody annoying.

Mccraque - Abosolute Blast nails it totally.

Somouk - aye, but my point didn't really come across - imagine the potential an ebike brings to a fit rider who wants to ride at same serious intensity. cool!

Granted, if you live somewhere flattish and pedal at over 25kmph most of the time, its a little pointless.

Also, over some terrain that was somewhat beyond the capability of the rental bike (not me though... *cough*), I managed to dislodge the battery which could have somewhat restricted the fun of the day 🙂

But we're all lying to ourselves if we say, sat upon our "e-mtb"s that they'e not motorbikes, that we will stay as fit, that they won't be used for shorter rides, that in some way the strip mining for the rare-earth metals that are required is environmentally responsible (or the energy requirements).

They arn't motorbikes. They don't have a throttle & they don't move under their own steam - they are a pedal assist bike.

FWIW, i've ridden one once - the Spec turbo levo - it was a riot.

They arn't motorbikes

Oh FFS, yes they are. Perhaps if you want to be pedantic then we could put a space or a hyphen between the words just be be completely correct. But they are bikes with a motor. Motor assisted bikes. Motor-bikes.

Or motorbikes for short

I'm thinking of hiring an e-bike when I go to Austria in a couple of weeks. I'm looking forward to weighing in with my opinion after that 😆

At the risk of biting....

Oh FFS, yes they are. Perhaps if you want to be pedantic then we could put a space or a hyphen between the words just be be completely correct. But they are bikes with a motor. Motor assisted bikes. Motor-bikes.

Or motorbikes for short

When I was a kid, if anybody turned up to school on one of these, we would literally have died from laughter if he'd said he'd ridden a motorbike in....

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I think that's the key, it allows those who might not be the fittest to enjoy mountain biking.

Some other take their enjoyment from the feeling of riding up hills. Horses for courses.

A friend of mine who's twice managed 1,000,000 feet of climbing in a year (that's about 3000' every single day of the year) has had an e-bike for 6 months and says he's fitter than he's ever been. He rides with Hans Rey, Brian Lopes, Troy Lee etc, so he's pretty good for an amateur!

One thing he has mentioned is that his pedalling technique has changed - he runs a 38t chainring on his 1x11 hardtail (and lives somewhere very steep) so he's normally a low cadence standing stomping pedaller. With the Levo he's found it's much more about spinning a low gear really fast, and riding like that (probably helped by the very long chainstays) he can pedal up things that would be impossible without the motor helping out, and it becomes a serious technical and physical challenge to get to the top without heart exploding or toppling back down the mountain.

My local hills aren't so big and I don't have a few k spare so I'm fine without a motor for now but I can see it's a big part of the MTB future. I love uplifted days and an ebike is like taking an uplift vehicle with you, without the environmental impact.

A <insert statistical outlier> who's a bazillion percent fitter and apply it to <ordinary Joe> argument.

It's like people who say "BMI doesn't apply to me". Yes it does, fatty. You're not a statistical outlier...

Edit:And strip-mining and electricity isn't "without environmental impact". It's lower, yes. But they're hardly "green".

Like I said. They're great fun motorbikes. My only real beef is people who kid themselves otherwise...

Oh FFS, yes they are. Perhaps if you want to be pedantic then we could put a space or a hyphen between the words just be be completely correct. But they are bikes with a motor. Motor assisted bikes. Motor-bikes.

Or motorbikes for short

Motorbikes work without pedalling. Ebikes don't.

Since the invention of "e-bikes" the definition of motorbike has widened. The've always been "bikes with a motor" tho.

You need to just adjust your opinions to the 21st Century 😉

I've decided E-bikes are to MTBing as MTBs are to trail running.

Trailing running is fun - so pure; just me, a pair of trainers and off I go. Long runs are hard work as is slogging up hills but I loved it. MTBing gets me on pretty much the same terrain but it's not quite so pure what with all the machinery making me so much more efficient. The same length journeys that would beast me when running are now relatively easy. But now I get to go so much further; I get to see so much more - it has opened my ability to explore further for longer. I'd never have voluntarily given up running and am glad both exist.

Replace running for MTB and MTB for E bike and it's just the same.

My first E bike will be an urban shopper though - still waiting for a quality cargo bike (Kona ute, Surly Big Bummy esque but with a good bosch motor) to come out.

Since the invention of "e-bikes" the definition of motorbike has widened.

In your opinion, as one of 'those' who struggles to understand the difference.

A visual representation of this thread

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Ebike = bike with motor = motorbike.

Just not a motorbike in the traditional sense.

I guess you could argue that a motocross bike only goes forward when you twist the throttle. The more you twisty the throttle, the more energy the motor gives you.

With an Ebike the throttle is the cranks. The faster you spin them the more the motor kicks in.

@ Mark, I don't buy any magazines now if they have any Ebike articles. The same as I don't buy magazines about road bikes, touring bikes, motorbikes, cats, fishing.... I'm not interested in those things.

With an Ebike the throttle is the cranks. The faster you spin them the more the motor kicks in.

What Happens if you spin the cranks faster on a normal bike?

Who am I to argue? People can have fun. But stop lying to yourselves that it's good for the environment or your waists

I dont give a hoot about either, they are fun, thats all that matters to me.
They are not motorbikes. I have owned many motorbikes over my lifetime & an assisted bicycle is not a motorbike.

I dont buy the magazine either as I base its contents to be similar to these forums, full of roadbikes & arguing about politics.

I don't care either way, but the e-bike haters arguments are laughable; sorry, they are!

"@ Mark, I don't buy any magazines now if they have any Ebike articles. The same as I don't buy magazines about road bikes, touring bikes, motorbikes, cats, fishing.... I'm not interested in those things"

Agreed, they need their separate space.

But they're being marketed to mountain bikers - you wouldn't get much traction in the motocross space. Who would give up all that power?

As for the trail-running argument above. I was a *lot* fitter when I used to do that. In the same way that if I gave up MTB for eMTB I'd be less fit again. 🙂

bearnecessities - Member
I don't care either way, but the e-bike [s]haters [/s] [b]lovers[/b] arguments are laughable; sorry, they are!

Goes both ways....

If the motor is not a motor, what is it then?

As I said, in the traditional sense they are not motorbikes, in as much as you don't fill it with petrol, they don't go brrrrap!, they are less likely to make your missus a widow, but they are bikes with a motor.

Your definition of a motorbike varies to mine.

As for the trail-running argument above. I was a *lot* fitter when I used to do that. In the same way that if I gave up MTB for eMTB I'd be less fit again.

A case study of one.... and if we extrapolated that globally it might well be true. I wasn't however so that's scuppered that argument 🙂 . The truth is that there will be a huge variance.

Personally I'm happy that they are in Singletrack. Probably about the right amount of coverage and as interesting to read about are every other bike test for a genre I don't plan on buying any time soon. A lot of MTBers are curious about them so that's reason enough. I'm not so anal about these things as to be sure but I don't recalled ever seeing a 'p' next to Alpin's name so his opinion about if their coverage means they would stop him buying the magazine is largely irrelevant to Mark I would imagine. Far more chance of an uptake in readership with slightly broken mtbers of yore coming back into the fold and interested in reading about the innovation of a possible solution*

Again, this is not to say EMTBs are for broken people exclusively but they certainly will make up a proportion of the market.

Alpins next motorcar

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^ its a motorised vehicle, as is a car. Just like an ebike is a motorised bike, just like a motorbike.

^ its a motorised vehicle, as is a car. Just like an ebike is a motorised bike, just like a motorbike.

yes

I had a P once. Got bored with the general content of the mag. Have loads of old issues in my folks loft.

For obvious reasons this thread got me wondering what - exactly - is a motorbike. My initial Googling told me that motorbike is another word for motorcycle. A couple of definitions of motorcycle:

a vehicle with two wheels and an engine

a two-wheeled vehicle that is powered by a motor and has no pedals

This then begs the question of what the difference is between motor and an engine:

A motor is a machine that converts other forms of energy into mechanical energy and so imparts motion.
An engine is a motor that converts thermal energy to mechanical work.

So, *if* a motorbike is the same as a motorcycle and *if* a motorcycle must have an engine to be a motorcycle and *if* an engine must have combustion to be an engine then e-bikes are....

....

....sorry I ran out of sh*ts to give at that point 😆

[edit: I'm conscious that the two definitions I provided don't agree with each other anyway. I shouldn't have bothered]

....sorry I ran out of sh*ts to give at that point

😀

[edit: I'm conscious that the two definitions I provided don't agree with each other anyway. I shouldn't have bothered]

But neither of them could possibly include an E-bike, but for different reasons!

Your definition of a motorbike varies to mine.

I can see it's a big part of the MTB future. I love uplifted days and an ebike is like taking an uplift vehicle with you, without the environmental impact.

my lord what a lot of fun. Bring on the development and evolution

Be careful what you wish for.

The need to propel yourself back up the hill under your own steam in places like Surrey Hills probably dissuades some people who essentially are only interested in freewheeling down hills. If low cost e-bikes greatly increase the number of riders in places like that, then I suspect that will in turn increase the likelihood of landowners imposing restrictions or bans, and of local authorities responding to pressure from locals to introduce controls over cycling where previously there were none.

Whether they're technically motorbikes or not doesn't really matter. They're still lame.

then I suspect that will in turn increase the likelihood of landowners imposing restrictions or bans, and of local authorities responding to pressure from locals to introduce controls over cycling where previously there were none.

Hopefully they won't put controls over cycling, but rather would put controls over e-biking. Two separate things.

Where I live in the south of Germany (Konstanz) the city is a very bike orientated, in the last year or two e-bikes have really taken off. There are a large number of 'ebike' only stores and every other bike whether it be road/MTB or even recumbant cycle has an electric motor... A few days ago I even saw an ebike for an 6-8 year old in the local bike shop 'Joos'

People of all ages ride them....

But stop with the "it allows those who might not be the fittest to enjoy mountain biking" guff.

Really?......are you honestly attempting to play that game?, I'm just back in from a 27 mile ride 50% off-road/50% road on my Scott E-Genius including 2211 ft of climbing, I'd love to be able to ride that route as i used to on my SS but unfortunatley MS has left me unable to walk further than a few yards at a time and pedalling a normal bike is out of the question as i barely have enough leg strength to stand up never mind push down on the cranks so the e-bike allows me to continue to get out and enjoy myself whilst keeping my fitness up.

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I still have 2 bars of battery left despite needing to ride it in turbo/full assist mode (i can't get my legs to provide enough power to use the lower settings) so after a well deserved iced coffee and a joint i'm now away back out to play on my [i]motorbike[/i] whilst i lie to myself that it is doing me any good.

chevychase :

I'm all for them. I'm against the lying to yourselves tho. It's bloody annoying.

Seeing as it upsets you so much i'll continue to lie to myself............ 😉

Since both sides know what an e-bike is

What do you mean when you say "e-bike"?
Are you referring just to pedelecs?
Or are you including anything with an electric motor that can be pedalled?

(I want more of both out there, just wondering if the term is as cleanly defined and understood as you claimed/thunk).

Don't see a problem with people using ebikes to commute, drag kiddie trailers or to help them get out and explore because they are - for whatever reason - unable to do so on a conventional bike.

For those that use an Ebike simply because it is easier (they are too lazy/unfit) than a conventional bike then I have to say that Kenneth has it.

One thing he has mentioned is that his pedalling technique has changed - he runs a 38t chainring on his 1x11 hardtail (and lives somewhere very steep) so he's normally a low cadence standing stomping pedaller.

That kind of sounds like he's got the wrong gearing for his local riding! Would you not use a double or triple with a decent range instead of "low cadence stomping"?

My parents, who are 76, are having great fun on the road with their new ebikes. I think it is going to be interesting to see how things develop as more people choose to use e bikes just because it's easier than pedalling an unpowered bike.

Quick question: do you need to use the battery to go down or once you are at the top of the trail, just switch it off and enjoy the descent like a non-emtb? thanks

You can turn the battery off and just ride em like a normal (pretty heavy) bike.
I have one, it's great for what i use it for, I would hesitate to say its as good as a 'normal' bike tho.
They 'accelerate' more easily, but they don't 'respond' like a non ebike does.
Mine is no slouch, but it would be no match for a fit rider on a decent bike.
Ive said this before, re the motorbike arguments, my last bike (kawasaki zzr1100) had 93.212kw, my ebike has 0.250kw, plus my meagre extra output, thats like comparing a family hatchback with a bugatti veyron.
Possibly interesting to note, i use a garmin to log my rides, including hr data, and it informs me that the bike that gets ridden the hardest is my ebike (according to hr data)
This did surprise me tbh, I wonder if anyone else has experienced the same.

This did surprise me tbh, I wonder if anyone else has experienced the same.

CRC did back to back testing, in an hour of riding the ebike version of 2 otherwise identical bikes (focus iirc) went further, got the riders max hr higher and the top speed being the same.

I have to say, I've been 'lying to myself'

This time 15 months ago, I had a fleet/stable/quiver/arsenal of very expensive bikes, but never rode them, as I was hilariously unfit, because of this I didn't go on group rides, as I'd have everyone waiting around, but then didn't go on solo rides as I didn't enjoy them because every ride felt like a 110% effort beasting. A vicious cycle (heh)

Demoed an ebike. Ordered one more or less immediately. Started riding. Started enjoying group rides, started really enjoying solo rides (as I didn't need to hold back. I never steam off into the distance if I'm on it, as I'm not a dick with it). Started using ebike as a training tool, reducing the level of assist. Became fit enough to keep up with group rides on normal bikes. Gone on to be one of the front riders on group rides. I'm now flirting with getting koms (not got an 'all time' one yet, but got a couple of 'fastest for the year so far' ones.) I'm willing to bet that I've done more endurance xc races this year than a few of the 'purist' ebike haters.

My point (thanks for getting this far...) is that none of this would have happened without the ebike. I'd be sat looking at a pile of normal bikes worth more than the average new car, rather than actually riding them, wishing I had the motivation to get fitter.

Incidentally, the ebike is still used as a training tool. By mstomhoward. To beast me up hill reps. 😡

Ridden two and ridden with one.

Charging up tough climbs getting to the top with lungs full of air is nice.

N Plus One could happen that's all I'm sayin.

If a Tesla is a motorcar, then surely an ebike is a motorbike, no?

Personally, I don't care too much, one less car and all, but...normally, to achieve reasonably fast average speeds (20mph+) on a commute requires a reasonable amount of time in the saddle building fitness and skills...you're used to those speeds and are comfortable around others with them. Recently I've seen quite a few de-restricted ebikes (they've overtaken me at 25mph and don't appear to be breathing hard at all) ploughing along shard use cycle paths at frankly ridiculous speeds, trying to overtake cyclists who themselves are overtaking a pedestrian or another (slower) cyclist. or overtaking into the path of another cyclist. ebike commuters are to cyclists, what mopeds are to motorbikers.

the only way the tesla analogy works is if tesla added power assist to a car that would otherwise be powered the same way as this one...

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I'm an Ebike rider, also got my normal (soon to be extinct) enduro. I'm not overwieght (10stone), not disabled (both arms and legs), and I'm really fit. I still l love riding my Levo just because it's fast and fun. I come from a motocross background and trust me, these aren't motorbikes . Most of the people moaning on here and calling them that, haven't rode either a motorbike or an Ebike! They are getting more and more popular and I'm not saying people will be forced into buying one, but once all the manufactures are producing and selling more Ebikes, you might be hard pressed to find a conventional one. Yes ok, certain brands like Santa Cruz and Yeti, etc properly won't produce one. But the mass brands will. And they'll get better . And they'll get cheaper. As I mentioned above I've come from a motocross background and in the early 2000's they intruduced four strokes into modern mainstream product (basically allowing twice the displacement to compete with a 2 stroke) now at the beginning they weren't faster , were cumbersome and wasn't relaiable . Only took them about 5-6 years to get top side, and fast forward to present day....2 strokes are as dead as dinosaurs , the super fast guys that smoked everyone on 2 strokes are still super fast guys on four strokes!! All the haters gonna hate..but you'll be in the minointy soon.
(Im proberbly that guy blasting Pines on my Levo BTW!!)