No one seems to be riding these and on paper they look a killer.Why the lack of interest
I know, I asked for pics a week or so ago and didn't get one posted. Seem spot on to me.
Im interested in them too people always seem to recommend them but nobody seems to ride them.
I think I would quite like to find out how a 160 fork would ride with the 120 rockers.
there's probably not that many around - Cotic were out of stock for ages! I've always liked the concept of the Hemlock, and the 2009 model looks spot on. If I had the cash, it would be my frame of choice 🙂
I've heard that they're looking into issues with swing-arm breakages, particularly on the medium frame.
on the new ones? i know there were some problems with the old ones...
Yes, on the new ones too. They break.
Heres one in the Swiss Alps.
[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yu5kyb&noresize=1&nostamp=1&quality=70 [/img]
I thought that was flexyness issues, not actually breakages?
Feel free to correct me, though...
EDIT - I was slightly slow posing this!
No, flexiness was the old issue. The new ones break if a crucial washer is ommitted or the pinch bolt behind the main pivot is loose. They then fail catastrophically at that point.
I don't really think it's my part to explain a Cotic safety issue, perhaps best to ask Cy.
There must be some out there tho.
I wanted one as my insurance replacement, but insurers would not play ball on a cash settlement 🙁
18bikes had priced me up a pukka bike with Thors/Hope Hoops/Louise's/SLX...
If you guys like the Hemlock , take a look at the Ventanas , I have never seem one break & they are designed the way the Cotic should have been.
The rockers are kept as short as possible & I do not think a gorilla could cause them to flex.Also all the pivots have double bearing & you can have multiple tavel rockes.
Except Ventanas generally cost at least £400 more.
and are known for breaking as well.
trail monkey has one... ask him
No, flexiness was the old issue. The new ones break if a crucial washer is ommitted or the pinch bolt behind the main pivot is loose. They then fail catastrophically at that point.
So it's more of a maintainance issue, really? Although you'd have thought that it wouldn't matter too much really.....
Ummm, if you don't do the main pivot pinch bolt up then I would sorta expect a catastrophic failure, as the swing arm will fall off.
Its a bit like if you don't do up your brake caliper bolts, I would expect the caliper to fail as well.
mildred - Member
Except Ventanas generally cost at least £400 more.
A lot of money for a Kona. 😆
BWD - how many have you SEEN fail, or is this just internet gossip?
I was one who was critical of how flexible the old rockers were - I played on wee pete36's one. The new ones seem a beefy as anything and the bike is indeed rigid at the rear (fnnar).
I was hoping to get one 🙁
Well my missus has one and loves it.
160 fork/120 rockers should be a lotta fun. I tried one with 150 fork/100 rockers and it could get you into a whole lot of trouble very very quickly indeed, without feeling like a sofa.
New (mk2) version looks very solid indeed. Must admit to being tempted meself....
Thanks Jon thats the first feedback about that combo Ive heard. Im hoping to have a new FS frame in that long/short format but there arnt many options. Was it a shop demo that you tried? If so where?
A lot of money for a Kona. [:lol:]
Doooo beat me to that 😉
I think Swinnertons in Stoke will have a demo soon...
I'm basing this on zero evidence, but since there are a few Hemlocks at the Bikeradar demo days, Cotic may be willing to ship one of those to your LBS for you to try.
I_Ache
Where are you based, and what size do you want to try?
Im in Birmingham a medium or a large should give me a good indication.
Was it a shop demo that you tried?
No - one of the preproduction ones.
I have ridden my other half's a bit though (she generally runs 140 F/100 R) which is a mighty fine singletrack hacker, but a bit small for me, and I've also used one of the AQR hire bikes (140F/150R) for some DH runs in the Pyrenees. That felt a little bit nervous and the forks (Pikes) couldn't really keep up with the back end.
I think one with the 6" rockers and some Lyrics or Float 36s would be about the perfect Megavalanche bike.
I've never ridden one, but given the way I ride if I ever feel the need to replace my Five a Hemlock would certainly be on my list. The 08 design looked too much like it was made in somebody's garage, but the new one looks pretty close to spot on I reckon.
BWD - how many have you SEEN fail, or is this just internet gossip?
Just the one, a magazine test bike. It failed because apparently a washer had been omitted during assembly, something which apparently is common to other medium-sized Hemlocks from the same batch, which presumably are out there being ridden still. It didn't fail because the bolt wasn't done up.
As I said earlier, I don't think it's really up to me to comment on a safety issue, but I can tell you that it's not something I've made up or 'heard' on the internet.
Got plenty in stock, but I think people are waiting for press. We got tests out much earlier last year. We've got a whole fleet built for the Future demos, and 18 Bikes, Cyclescene in York, Freedom Bikes in Brighton all have demos and we can ship a demo to a dealer if it doesn't clash with us needing it. I don't know if Swinno's have built there's yet, or whether they sold it. They had a frame off us a few weeks back.
Setup-wise, I ran 160/100 on last years bike and 160/120 on the 09, and it's lots and lots of fun in big stuff without being too wallowy or boring on smoother trails. Have to say I recently switched mine back to a much lighter 140/120 build using my Thors for demo duty, but left a sticky DH front tyre on and I'm totally loving it. 140mm forks are soooo much better than they were last year. I can chuck it around more because it's lighter, just loads and loads of fun.
Regarding the swingarm, we have had one fail which was a result of incorrect assembly of a pinch clamp and it lacking a washer. In this case the bolt loses preload and then the frame fatigues prematurely. One went which flagged up the issue. It's in the process of being sorted. I went and chucked mine off a 4ft drop 25 times the other week to make double sure I was totally, once-and-for-all happy with it. It's fine 😉
Are all the Hemlocks which are out there correctly assembled then?
All 2008 frames and the 2009 small and large ones are. The 2009 medium ones are in the process of being made that way.
There's not many being ridden out there because not many are made. I think people forget how small Cotic is. I'd like to see more photos of people's builds though. I'll take some pics of mine once the forks are back from being refreshed.
I'm going to take pics of mine when it has the extra-rad white rims in a few days 😀
I hope they're good, I've just bought one, but not built up yet. Currently intending on 150mm rear with 140 Talas up front, so comments about it being twitchy like that are interesting.
Ultimately I think some 160mm forks that wind down for climbing would be ideal. Or I could buy a 120mm rocker.
Looking forard to actually riding it.
cy hace you had any chance to ride any other bikes that will work with long forks (Wotans) and have short rear travel?
tlr - Thanks for joining in!! It's not really that twitchy with 140mm forks, that comment has to be taken in context of the big mountain environment Jon was riding the bike, and that he knows it'd be nicer in that situation with 160mm forks. the Hemlock is actually at the slack end of the spectrum for trail bikes. For the UK it'll be fine. I'm certainly enjoying a 140mm front end, and I've been out on DH trails recently and getting on well.
I_ache - I've not ridden any other bike with that kind of setup. I've ridden a BFe with Wotans which about the closest thing for me personally.
It's not really that twitchy with 140mm forks, that comment has to be taken in context of the big mountain environment Jon was riding the bike, and that he knows it'd be nicer in that situation with 160mm forks.
That kinda sums it up. My own big bike is a 6" Turner - very much like a Hemlock except the frame is about 3 or 4 lb heavier. I've run increasingly longer forks on it, and it just keeps getting faster and more capable in the environment for which it was designed. That said, I had 140mm forks on the Turner for 18 months or so, and it was only really when it hit the steep stuff that I noticed the twitchiness (and a lot more uphill friendly). This "issue" with the Hemlock was the same - I was trying to chase 2 sh!thot riders (one on a Yeti ASX the other an RM Switch) down their own freeride trails in the rain. I needed all the help I could get!
Thanks anyway cy TBH its £600 cheaper than the only other real contender on my short list. Thats from a British company too.
I will have to try to sort a test ride sometime.
One other thing that could seal the deal. Could/would you do the wrap graphic on the downtube?
Well that got things moving.Cy thanks for the reply.Im about to pull the trigger on one here in NZ.Been riding a Soul and hopeing the Hemlocks as good.
I-Ache yes I'm torn between the Orange Blood and the hemlock too, egding towards the orange at the moment, hmmm decisions, interesting thread, its good to get a bit of feedback on the hemlock.
One thing that is swaying me towards the orange is the fact it looks on paper to be a bit more jumpy freeride orientated which is what I'm after. Would have gone for a Corsair Konig but I need a full length seatube for the rase post.
I prefer mine with 150mm, but then Cy is riding off and down things with 140mm forks that I'd need a climbing ropes for.
Anyway, wrap decal, doesn't fit I'm afraid. Nice clean brake and gear routing paired with purposeful downtube shaping means that it's not a trivial thing to achieve. Function before decal placing with this baby = ;7)
Got mine in december, and I like.... 120mm on the back end, 140mm u-turn revs on front. Looks pretty good for the money. V nice allround bike. In the past 2 yrs I've been on a blur lt, several maestro giants, marin mt vis, enduro.....
tlr - Thanks for joining in!! It's not really that twitchy with 140mm forks, that comment has to be taken in context of the big mountain environment Jon was riding the bike, and that he knows it'd be nicer in that situation with 160mm forks. the Hemlock is actually at the slack end of the spectrum for trail bikes. For the UK it'll be fine. I'm certainly enjoying a 140mm front end, and I've been out on DH trails recently and getting on well.
Thanks for the reassurance, I'll have to see what it feels like, hopefully ready by next weekend.
I've had my hemmy for about a year, I'd recommend getting both rockers & have fun playing with the set up, also where eles would you get to speak to boss
when you phone up with a query. Great work Cy.
filthy i couldnt agree more. The problem is that at the same time i would like a lighter bike than what i have and im not sure the orange would be but im also not sure the hemlock would be strong enough. The hemlock seems like more ride up and across the hill and the blood is more struggle up and hammer down. Not looked at the corsair but have considered a bottlerocket although they are heavy.
I'm planning a new bike in the summer and have to say I'm sorely tempted by the Hemlock. The idea of a short travel bike for mucking around on here and being able to switch to long for the odd Alps trip has huge appeal. Another big plus (and I know it sounds trivial) is that the seatpost diameter will take my Speedball, which is probably the single best thing I've ever bought for a bike).
Cy, are you going to the Laggan demo day in April?
Filthy - I had a ride on an Orange Blood AM last weekend and I think you're imagining about right.
It's like a chunky, jumpy hardtail with a bit of rear suspension. Very capable and confident downhill, great fun on singletrack and winches away OK uphill.
Not the bike for day rides, but would be brilliant fun for the more BMX-y trail centres or messing about rides.
I've not seen a Blood in the metal, but from what I can gather from frame weight (it's heavier than an Alpine 160) and general layout (it's only really for 160mm but the look of it) it's way more of a heavy duty mucking around bike than the Hemlock. The Hemlock's a good, tough trail bike, but I think the Blood looks like it's more jumpy/droppy. That said, I've not found anything within my riding capability that I'd be concerned about the Hemlock on strength-wise.
Oh, and Wrap-wise, I'm afraid not. Apart from all the reasons Kelvin listed, when we tried it on a mockup up once it looked like such a car crash we knew we couldn't do it. The crazy lines of the wrap work really well on the hardtails because they're so clean lined. All the visual lines from braces,linkages and other bits mean that decal design beyond boring old plain lettering is actually bloody hard to do right. Kelvin sweated blood to get us a nice interesting option for the Hemlock, but unfortunately the wrap wasn't it.
kennyp - we're not doing Laggan, but we are in Scotland in April, on the 5th at Glentress with the National Demo Tour bikeradar thing. The bikes are bloody busy already though, so you probably want to get booked if you're thinking on coming. demodays.bikeradar.com.
So - what does a small Hemlock (120 rockers) frame weigh?
Was lined up to ride a Hemlock at Aston Hills last week, but they cancelled it at the last minute (and didn't bother emailing people who'd booked). Will have to find another date I can make.
Small powdercoat frame (heavier than the ano) came in a 5.717lbs on the kitchen scales sans shock. Shock + hardware is probably another 0.7lbs, so about 6.4lbs. Makes sense as the medium is about 6.5lb.
@r6ymy - we're doing national demo at Cannock next week, our own Big Day Out at Sherwood Pines 21st March and national demo again at Glentress 5th April.
Cy how good is the warrenty? If I managed to snap one doing sa a 6' drop would I be covered? And would it extend to mincing down DH tracks?
Warranty covers materials and workmanship defects only for 2 years free followed by 2 years half price replacement. Warranty claims are dealt with on a case by case basis. For example, if you managed to snap one in 3 years time after doing your 500th 6ft drop to flat without enough air in the rear shock, then no, I'd say that wasn't a warranty job. If you snapped it on the second 6ft drop you ride, which is into a nice landing without bottoming out the shock and you weigh 60kg, then there's probably something amiss and we'd almost certainly sort out a replacement. I wouldn't worry about riding on DH tracks - I use mine on them.
baa - Member
also where eles would you get to speak to boss
when you phone up with a query.
Dave Turner 8)
I bought an 08 ex demo recently and built it up with 36 Talas forks. Its a small frame 160F 100R plus i bought the 150 rocker which i'll probably save for the Pyrenees. Its got decent hard wearing kit, trail not DH and weighs about 33lbs.
So far so good, i had an 06 Wolf Ridge and after riding the 08 model decided i wanted something a bit slacker and a little more unique. Step up the Hemlock..
Love the bike (not noticed any flex). Unless your a genuine freeride god i'm sure its up to most tasks.. Plus Cy seems like a good bloke and put up with all my daft questions both before and after my purchase.
I'll post up a pic if you tell me how!
That's me got two test rides booked at Glentress; one short travel and one long. Looking forward to it.
One last question then I will be satisfied. Is the geometry the same in 120 and 150 modes and its just the leverage ratio that differs?
Thanks again.
At 20% rear sag, the geometry is identical on both rockers. It diverges slightly after that point, with 30% on 150mm being very slightly slacker and lower than 30% on 120mm. There's a little less than 0.5deg in it, and about 3mm on BB height.
Great stuff thanks again Cy I will stop bugging you now.
No problem, it's what I'm here for!
Well if thats the case, what travel-range of fork would you best recommended for the Hemlock for the most versatility for UK trails i.e. a UK all rounder? I'm kind of thinking Pike or Fox TALAS in the 110 to 140 range.
I've got some 100 to 130 Revs but I'm thinking they would be too short to do the bike justice...then again, with the short rocker, they seem a likely pairing.
I run mine with a Pike. I think some kind of travel adjust on the front is a good move if you want an all rounder.
I run it with the short rocker BTW.
If you want 140mm he will recommend a Thor and will do a deal on one when you buy a frame.
[i]"I'm kind of thinking Pike or Fox TALAS in the 110 to 140 range.
I've got some 100 to 130 Revs but I'm thinking they would be too short to do the bike justice .."[/i]
Arch-to-crown hieghts:
Rockshox Revelation @ 130mm = 508mm
Fox 32 @ 140mm = 511mm
Rockshox Pike @ 140mm = 517/8mm
Magura Thor @ 140mm = 520mm
The Revs will almost (3mm) be as tall as the fox's, so if your willing to run foxes, revs should be fine too
Is there such thing as an external 1.5" - 1 1/8" reducer headset? Thus slackening the head angle when running a shorter fork? Ie getting pike/thor ride hieght from a revelation?
There are plenty of tall stack 1.5->1.125 headsets. Pair one of these up with one of the thick baseplates that some manufacturers are doing and you can add 10mm or more to the effective fork length easy enough.
so you can do burly riding but dont tell cy or you wont be warrenteed.
sorted!
are you planning to do 4" rockers for the frames? 5-6" adjustment isnt alot really. the old 4-6" was a better range i recon.
You can run 105mm using a shorter stroke shock as the "a bit less" rocker hasn't changed length. The reason the stock shock is now a longer stroke is to allow the "a bit more" 150mm rocker to be shorter.
The stock "a bit less" 120mm rear travel options feels spot on to me as it happens.
A bit cheeky to post here I know, but if anyone wants a 150mm rocker for a Hemlock, I have one going spare - pm me.
You can run 130mm Rev's no problem on the frame, and you'd almost certainly never touch the travel adjuster. Hope do a version of their 1.5 Reducer headset which has a conventional 13mm bottom stack height instead of the internal cup. This is an option with any fork to get the frame a bit slacker if you want it. The most noticeable thing you'll get from a 140mm fork is the bolt thru axle which will give you more confidence in rocky sections, as well as being less likely to feel overfaced by the 150mm option if you run that much. Pikes and Floats are both ace forks, but as mentioned, I do use Thors myself and that's what we sell.
Van Halen - 30mm travel makes a quite surprising difference to the feel and capability of the frame. I was unsure myself when looking at changing the options this year. On the 08 frame, the difference in leverage to get 105mm or 150mm travel was so big that it was difficult to get the shock performance really nice on both settings, and in particular the 150mm setting with the old 3:1 leverage made the Fox shock feel a bit harried if the rider was above about 75kg in weight. I wanted to reduce the leverage on 150mm by going to a 57mm stroke shock (used to be 50mm), and this gets really nice performance, but keeping the short travel at 105mm would have meant a leverage of less than 2:1 which would have meant lighter people would have been way overdamped. Keeping the shock rocker the same shape as 08 but adding the 57mm shock gave 120mm travel, and I had to try it out to see if there was indeed a good differential between the two, and there is. The 120mm setting still has more 'pop' and less wallow than the longer travel setting so I was happy to go with that. If you wanted 105mm/150mm we still have some 2008 long rockers and 50mm stroke Pearl shocks, so we could configure a frame for you.
Cy - this is a really interesting topic for me, as the Hemlock seems to be one of very few bikes that fit the bill of what I may get next.
In the past I've run my Fox 36 on a 6" travel frame. I love the stiffness, travel, and security of the big fork, but the rear end was always just a bit too wallowy. Currently riding an Alpine as a winter bike with the same fork - so I've got back that snap, and acceleration from the rear end, but its pounding after a couple of hours.
Do you think many people are really running a long/short combo?
How do you go about setting the shocks up with the imbalanced travel?
I am very intrigued, would love to get a shot on one. We've sold a few Cotics through my work (EBC) but unfortunately theres no demand to get a frame in as stock. With a bit of luck I'll be moving from Leeds back to Western Sheffield soon anyway So I may have to arrange a demo from 18.
As snotrag, I have to say I've been looking at this thread with interest. The issue is I really do want a UK all rounder but with a biase towards short/mid travel for all day epics around Surrey Hills or SDW whilst having the potential to switch to longer travel as and when required. Whilst the Hemlock seems perfect I wonder if it is more geared/suited to longer travel than this and the ride with short/mid is going to be compromised?
Best get down to Brighton for a test ride
@snotrag and nukeproof - It's not 'geared' to any particular combination of travels, it's a preference thing. From my own personal riding viewpoint, short travel is where it's at. My current setup is 140/120, lightish build with big, heavy, sticky front tyre. It rocks a lot. Up until recently, and all through last year I had 160mm forks on it, with either 105 (08 frame) or 120 (09) out back. Popped the long rockers on for Luchon in the summer, and the Snowdon Assault back in October time. I'd say from what we're selling, most people are running short travel the majority of the time with at least 140mm forks, and I've seen plenty of pics of customer bikes with 36's or Wotans on. In terms of setting it up, it's no different to any other bike - set the fork to the recommended pressure, then set up the sag on the rear to between 20% and 35% of shock stroke. I use around 25-30% for trail riding, and 35% for DH stuff where I'm not pedalling much. It's explained in the frame manual. Even with a big fork/short rear I've not had trouble with bottoming out the frame, as it's designed to be progessive in the short setting to compensate, and the 09 Fox damping is astonishingly good.
Cheers - I'm sure it works well, just interesting to know whether people have got over the idea that everything must be matched exactly, which seemed to be the 'in' thing a few years ago. Certainly been quilty of it myself at one point.
My current bike rides fantastic, and thats rather a big mismatch - 160mm followed by 0 (maybe 1 or 2)mm!
Well that thinking is where the short travel option came from; I (obviously) have a penchant for long travel hardtails, and I have a minimum of 100mm travel difference between the front and rear ends on my Soul. When the Hemlock was getting to the final stages of development it was a great bike in 150mm mode, but it wasn't something I [i]really[/i] wanted to ride, particularly in the UK, so the whole 'hardtail +' thing came about because I could go to really big forks and a bit of squish out back to give me some extra grip and damage limitation without it getting too remote and wallowy. This is still why I prefer the shorter travel, but when I go somewhere for pure DH thrills then strapping on the 150mm artillery is ace if ultimate speed and grip are what you're looking for.