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Got mine in december, and I like.... 120mm on the back end, 140mm u-turn revs on front. Looks pretty good for the money. V nice allround bike. In the past 2 yrs I've been on a blur lt, several maestro giants, marin mt vis, enduro.....
tlr - Thanks for joining in!! It's not really that twitchy with 140mm forks, that comment has to be taken in context of the big mountain environment Jon was riding the bike, and that he knows it'd be nicer in that situation with 160mm forks. the Hemlock is actually at the slack end of the spectrum for trail bikes. For the UK it'll be fine. I'm certainly enjoying a 140mm front end, and I've been out on DH trails recently and getting on well.
Thanks for the reassurance, I'll have to see what it feels like, hopefully ready by next weekend.
I've had my hemmy for about a year, I'd recommend getting both rockers & have fun playing with the set up, also where eles would you get to speak to boss
when you phone up with a query. Great work Cy.
filthy i couldnt agree more. The problem is that at the same time i would like a lighter bike than what i have and im not sure the orange would be but im also not sure the hemlock would be strong enough. The hemlock seems like more ride up and across the hill and the blood is more struggle up and hammer down. Not looked at the corsair but have considered a bottlerocket although they are heavy.
I'm planning a new bike in the summer and have to say I'm sorely tempted by the Hemlock. The idea of a short travel bike for mucking around on here and being able to switch to long for the odd Alps trip has huge appeal. Another big plus (and I know it sounds trivial) is that the seatpost diameter will take my Speedball, which is probably the single best thing I've ever bought for a bike).
Cy, are you going to the Laggan demo day in April?
Filthy - I had a ride on an Orange Blood AM last weekend and I think you're imagining about right.
It's like a chunky, jumpy hardtail with a bit of rear suspension. Very capable and confident downhill, great fun on singletrack and winches away OK uphill.
Not the bike for day rides, but would be brilliant fun for the more BMX-y trail centres or messing about rides.
I've not seen a Blood in the metal, but from what I can gather from frame weight (it's heavier than an Alpine 160) and general layout (it's only really for 160mm but the look of it) it's way more of a heavy duty mucking around bike than the Hemlock. The Hemlock's a good, tough trail bike, but I think the Blood looks like it's more jumpy/droppy. That said, I've not found anything within my riding capability that I'd be concerned about the Hemlock on strength-wise.
Oh, and Wrap-wise, I'm afraid not. Apart from all the reasons Kelvin listed, when we tried it on a mockup up once it looked like such a car crash we knew we couldn't do it. The crazy lines of the wrap work really well on the hardtails because they're so clean lined. All the visual lines from braces,linkages and other bits mean that decal design beyond boring old plain lettering is actually bloody hard to do right. Kelvin sweated blood to get us a nice interesting option for the Hemlock, but unfortunately the wrap wasn't it.
kennyp - we're not doing Laggan, but we are in Scotland in April, on the 5th at Glentress with the National Demo Tour bikeradar thing. The bikes are bloody busy already though, so you probably want to get booked if you're thinking on coming. demodays.bikeradar.com.
So - what does a small Hemlock (120 rockers) frame weigh?
Was lined up to ride a Hemlock at Aston Hills last week, but they cancelled it at the last minute (and didn't bother emailing people who'd booked). Will have to find another date I can make.
Small powdercoat frame (heavier than the ano) came in a 5.717lbs on the kitchen scales sans shock. Shock + hardware is probably another 0.7lbs, so about 6.4lbs. Makes sense as the medium is about 6.5lb.
@r6ymy - we're doing national demo at Cannock next week, our own Big Day Out at Sherwood Pines 21st March and national demo again at Glentress 5th April.
Cy how good is the warrenty? If I managed to snap one doing sa a 6' drop would I be covered? And would it extend to mincing down DH tracks?
Warranty covers materials and workmanship defects only for 2 years free followed by 2 years half price replacement. Warranty claims are dealt with on a case by case basis. For example, if you managed to snap one in 3 years time after doing your 500th 6ft drop to flat without enough air in the rear shock, then no, I'd say that wasn't a warranty job. If you snapped it on the second 6ft drop you ride, which is into a nice landing without bottoming out the shock and you weigh 60kg, then there's probably something amiss and we'd almost certainly sort out a replacement. I wouldn't worry about riding on DH tracks - I use mine on them.
baa - Member
also where eles would you get to speak to boss
when you phone up with a query.
Dave Turner 8)
I bought an 08 ex demo recently and built it up with 36 Talas forks. Its a small frame 160F 100R plus i bought the 150 rocker which i'll probably save for the Pyrenees. Its got decent hard wearing kit, trail not DH and weighs about 33lbs.
So far so good, i had an 06 Wolf Ridge and after riding the 08 model decided i wanted something a bit slacker and a little more unique. Step up the Hemlock..
Love the bike (not noticed any flex). Unless your a genuine freeride god i'm sure its up to most tasks.. Plus Cy seems like a good bloke and put up with all my daft questions both before and after my purchase.
I'll post up a pic if you tell me how!
That's me got two test rides booked at Glentress; one short travel and one long. Looking forward to it.
One last question then I will be satisfied. Is the geometry the same in 120 and 150 modes and its just the leverage ratio that differs?
Thanks again.
At 20% rear sag, the geometry is identical on both rockers. It diverges slightly after that point, with 30% on 150mm being very slightly slacker and lower than 30% on 120mm. There's a little less than 0.5deg in it, and about 3mm on BB height.
Great stuff thanks again Cy I will stop bugging you now.
No problem, it's what I'm here for!
Well if thats the case, what travel-range of fork would you best recommended for the Hemlock for the most versatility for UK trails i.e. a UK all rounder? I'm kind of thinking Pike or Fox TALAS in the 110 to 140 range.
I've got some 100 to 130 Revs but I'm thinking they would be too short to do the bike justice...then again, with the short rocker, they seem a likely pairing.
I run mine with a Pike. I think some kind of travel adjust on the front is a good move if you want an all rounder.
I run it with the short rocker BTW.
If you want 140mm he will recommend a Thor and will do a deal on one when you buy a frame.
[i]"I'm kind of thinking Pike or Fox TALAS in the 110 to 140 range.
I've got some 100 to 130 Revs but I'm thinking they would be too short to do the bike justice .."[/i]
Arch-to-crown hieghts:
Rockshox Revelation @ 130mm = 508mm
Fox 32 @ 140mm = 511mm
Rockshox Pike @ 140mm = 517/8mm
Magura Thor @ 140mm = 520mm
The Revs will almost (3mm) be as tall as the fox's, so if your willing to run foxes, revs should be fine too
Is there such thing as an external 1.5" - 1 1/8" reducer headset? Thus slackening the head angle when running a shorter fork? Ie getting pike/thor ride hieght from a revelation?
There are plenty of tall stack 1.5->1.125 headsets. Pair one of these up with one of the thick baseplates that some manufacturers are doing and you can add 10mm or more to the effective fork length easy enough.
so you can do burly riding but dont tell cy or you wont be warrenteed.
sorted!
are you planning to do 4" rockers for the frames? 5-6" adjustment isnt alot really. the old 4-6" was a better range i recon.
You can run 105mm using a shorter stroke shock as the "a bit less" rocker hasn't changed length. The reason the stock shock is now a longer stroke is to allow the "a bit more" 150mm rocker to be shorter.
The stock "a bit less" 120mm rear travel options feels spot on to me as it happens.
A bit cheeky to post here I know, but if anyone wants a 150mm rocker for a Hemlock, I have one going spare - pm me.
You can run 130mm Rev's no problem on the frame, and you'd almost certainly never touch the travel adjuster. Hope do a version of their 1.5 Reducer headset which has a conventional 13mm bottom stack height instead of the internal cup. This is an option with any fork to get the frame a bit slacker if you want it. The most noticeable thing you'll get from a 140mm fork is the bolt thru axle which will give you more confidence in rocky sections, as well as being less likely to feel overfaced by the 150mm option if you run that much. Pikes and Floats are both ace forks, but as mentioned, I do use Thors myself and that's what we sell.
Van Halen - 30mm travel makes a quite surprising difference to the feel and capability of the frame. I was unsure myself when looking at changing the options this year. On the 08 frame, the difference in leverage to get 105mm or 150mm travel was so big that it was difficult to get the shock performance really nice on both settings, and in particular the 150mm setting with the old 3:1 leverage made the Fox shock feel a bit harried if the rider was above about 75kg in weight. I wanted to reduce the leverage on 150mm by going to a 57mm stroke shock (used to be 50mm), and this gets really nice performance, but keeping the short travel at 105mm would have meant a leverage of less than 2:1 which would have meant lighter people would have been way overdamped. Keeping the shock rocker the same shape as 08 but adding the 57mm shock gave 120mm travel, and I had to try it out to see if there was indeed a good differential between the two, and there is. The 120mm setting still has more 'pop' and less wallow than the longer travel setting so I was happy to go with that. If you wanted 105mm/150mm we still have some 2008 long rockers and 50mm stroke Pearl shocks, so we could configure a frame for you.
Cy - this is a really interesting topic for me, as the Hemlock seems to be one of very few bikes that fit the bill of what I may get next.
In the past I've run my Fox 36 on a 6" travel frame. I love the stiffness, travel, and security of the big fork, but the rear end was always just a bit too wallowy. Currently riding an Alpine as a winter bike with the same fork - so I've got back that snap, and acceleration from the rear end, but its pounding after a couple of hours.
Do you think many people are really running a long/short combo?
How do you go about setting the shocks up with the imbalanced travel?
I am very intrigued, would love to get a shot on one. We've sold a few Cotics through my work (EBC) but unfortunately theres no demand to get a frame in as stock. With a bit of luck I'll be moving from Leeds back to Western Sheffield soon anyway So I may have to arrange a demo from 18.
As snotrag, I have to say I've been looking at this thread with interest. The issue is I really do want a UK all rounder but with a biase towards short/mid travel for all day epics around Surrey Hills or SDW whilst having the potential to switch to longer travel as and when required. Whilst the Hemlock seems perfect I wonder if it is more geared/suited to longer travel than this and the ride with short/mid is going to be compromised?
Best get down to Brighton for a test ride
@snotrag and nukeproof - It's not 'geared' to any particular combination of travels, it's a preference thing. From my own personal riding viewpoint, short travel is where it's at. My current setup is 140/120, lightish build with big, heavy, sticky front tyre. It rocks a lot. Up until recently, and all through last year I had 160mm forks on it, with either 105 (08 frame) or 120 (09) out back. Popped the long rockers on for Luchon in the summer, and the Snowdon Assault back in October time. I'd say from what we're selling, most people are running short travel the majority of the time with at least 140mm forks, and I've seen plenty of pics of customer bikes with 36's or Wotans on. In terms of setting it up, it's no different to any other bike - set the fork to the recommended pressure, then set up the sag on the rear to between 20% and 35% of shock stroke. I use around 25-30% for trail riding, and 35% for DH stuff where I'm not pedalling much. It's explained in the frame manual. Even with a big fork/short rear I've not had trouble with bottoming out the frame, as it's designed to be progessive in the short setting to compensate, and the 09 Fox damping is astonishingly good.
Cheers - I'm sure it works well, just interesting to know whether people have got over the idea that everything must be matched exactly, which seemed to be the 'in' thing a few years ago. Certainly been quilty of it myself at one point.
My current bike rides fantastic, and thats rather a big mismatch - 160mm followed by 0 (maybe 1 or 2)mm!
Well that thinking is where the short travel option came from; I (obviously) have a penchant for long travel hardtails, and I have a minimum of 100mm travel difference between the front and rear ends on my Soul. When the Hemlock was getting to the final stages of development it was a great bike in 150mm mode, but it wasn't something I [i]really[/i] wanted to ride, particularly in the UK, so the whole 'hardtail +' thing came about because I could go to really big forks and a bit of squish out back to give me some extra grip and damage limitation without it getting too remote and wallowy. This is still why I prefer the shorter travel, but when I go somewhere for pure DH thrills then strapping on the 150mm artillery is ace if ultimate speed and grip are what you're looking for.
Always wanted a Transition Preston in its original guise (4" R and up to 5" or 6" F). [url] http://www.bikemagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/4328 [/url] - although in that frame size it looks goping.
Never found one for the right price (and would never have bought off the guy originally importing them - twunt). When the Hemlock mk1 came out I was really tempted. But then Cotic (just as Transition did) went to 5" R. Pity, was something I would really have liked to try (although the reasons for the change Cy gives seem perfectly fair).
Will just have to stick to the 5 Spot and stop being such a bike tart 😉
EDIT: and it's always seemed an obvious way to have a bike that'd work well for most people. If long forked hardtails make sense and are good to ride then a short/long FS is surely a winning idea. Don't really subscribe to the ethos of perfectly matched F&R travel.
They're great climbing bikes too.I know going down is where all the fun is but helping hand going up is always good.
I had a week on one in the pyreness last summer and the hemlock climbed fantastic on all sorts of terrain. I think that was long travel plates too.
Certainly seems to be a bike thats really versatile and great for all day spins when you encounter bit of everything.
This is interesting as ive been trying to find a bike that would ride right with 120 ish out back and 140 up front, I will have to put the geometry figures into my spreadsheet to compare to the 4 million other possible frames ive been thinking of heh
cy: How do you find the Thors as I also need new forks. I note that they are 10mm longer than Fox 32's so probably better for the Cotic, they got a iffy review in mbuk/bikeradar but a comment on there suggests you just need to get your head round the setup http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/components/forks-suspension/product/thor-fork-09-32817
cheers
Just a quickie, I've been perusing the specs on the cotic website and noticed the Hemlock comes with a 73mm bb shell. I'd like to run a dual ring chain device with ISCG mount. Does the hemlock have tabs, is it possible to machine the shall down to 68mm to take a bb mount ISCG tab or is there another way to mount my MRP, I'm guessing that I'd need crankset with a longer axle???
Also where's the closest place to teesside to demo one, I'm taking an Orange Blood out on Saturday but would like a go on a Hemlock (large preferably) and a Corsair before making my mind up.
No reply from Cy yet as he's at Warncliffe on his 120 out back 140 up front bike! I'm sure he'll post his thoughts on those Thors tomorrow. You don't need the lock down gubbings on a Hemlock though, so if that's the only weak point on the Thors you can probably ignore that issue.
I'm too jay to know much about chaindevices, but Hollowtech2 cranks still have one spacer drive side on a 73mm BB, so I presume that comes off when the chaindevice goes on. Check before buying cranks/guard/BB, but I'm sure there is a combination of those that goes on a 73mm shell.
There's a demo day at Glentress in first weekend in April, book here: http://demodays.bikeradar.com/event.php?id=8
Well I think I have just booked the Cotic for a session at Glentress but its not showing up on my calendar.
kelvins right, shimano HT2 has a spare spacer when fitted to 73mm bb's which you can remove to fit a chaindevice.
Right Hemlock booked for GT, its showing up on the calendar now. Thats reassuring about the shimano cranks... any idea if Raceface Atlas AM are the same?
Yes, RF BB's are the same. All external style BB's have a spacer on the driveside. Personally, I think Thors are ace. I don't use the travel adjust anymore and don't miss it on the Hemlock. The platform damping does give good adjustment potential, but personally I just run the without the platform on for full plushness and a bit more air in them than Magura recommends. I've used Pikes and Pace Fighters recently and the Magura is easily as good as either of them. Not used Fox for years so can comment there.
ok cheers for the input