This thread is turning very much Monty Python, we’ll soon have mention of lumps of coal and being fed poison as a lad!
I don't think it is
most of his usual discussions were about his 40k car and how he was getting modifications, remapping, etc
And this is a good reason why not....
In the last 10-15 years the number of hyper cars or even more hyper than a hyper car has increased exponentially. There are whole layers upon layers of obscene car spending available now that you couldn't have done no matter how deep your pockets were. 15 years ago your mate's level of performance road car would have been what, 8th division in car top trumps. Now it's 15th division. Basically he's driving around in a poverty spec piece of shit.......if you judge every car by the standards of the best possibly available. Not because it's any less fun or shiny than it was but because the goals posts for 'ultimate if money was no object' have been kicked so far away they are almost out of sight.
Returning to bikes - previously you might have justified the 3rd best specced bike in Specialized's range and now you can only afford the 8th - not because it's a worse bike but because they are now punting a load of extra layers of 'special' previously unavailable. Get the marketing bods to mess around with the naming to make you think you have to join in in the arms race just to stand still or you will be having no fun and everyone will sneer at you in the car park and boom you have ensured people feel the need to get spendy (word used specifically to rile the poster last week who hated it!) to keep on riding a bike.
My mate who I bikepack with has just go into Enduro/DH riding. He's picked up a 26" wheel full suss Marin in mint condition for £300. Who cares what anyone else rides as we're having fun which is why we do it. Ride what you have or can afford. Another mate is super rich and just spent 12k on a bike. Good luck to him he's still on the same trails having the same fun.
Unfortunately cafes have lost our business lately as we take our own brew kit and cake in a vain attempt to offset fuel costs.
For drivetrains, after trying singlespeed I'd love to see deore level 5 speed or similar. If less gears reduce complexity to manufacture keeping price down while maintaining durability without gaining weight. Dream on.
What I want is to choose between 3 to 5 different single speeds!
I bought a top of the range santa cruz around 2009 for around £3,800 – same type of spec now is £8/£9k where wages havent increased that much in the last 12 years.
Started running and hiking instead..
Nearly four grand buys you an AMAZING bike these days. Better than anything you could buy in 2009 for all the money in the world.
I can only assume they have little understanding of engineering. You add 2 or 3 extra sprockets and (collectively between all the sprockets) triple the number of teeth. You by necessity increase the manufacturing tolerances to make it work and you further complicate the manufacture by machining out more material and/or switching material to stop it weighing the same as the moon. And then you are surprised how much more it costs than an old 9sd 11-32T.
I completely get the level of engineering involved and understand why they cost a lot more than an 11-32T, and I appreciate the benefits in terms of reducing complexity down to a single front chainring. On the other hand, I get more life out of chainrings than cassettes, so the costs are more finely balanced. In the past when I’ve looked at how much life people are getting out of 1x set ups before replacement vs my current set up it has usually been in favour of my current (at least in financial terms) but not by much. My next bike will probably be 1x and I’m fine with that. I was commenting on someone else stating that cassettes are on 3 figures. Not all are - even the 12sp cassettes these days.
Link please
Santa Cruz Tallboy 4 C R Mountain Bike 2021 – Ivory
I was being ironically flippant. 🙂 You cant possibly know what I'm looking for.
You cant possibly know what I’m looking for.
What are you looking for?
Describe your needs, give us a £3,800 budget, we’ll find you something.
Personally (and this is so biased it’s in danger of being seen as an advert) I’d get a Cotic Jeht with RockShox fork and shock and XT 11 speed groupset.
You cant possibly know what I’m looking for.
By the sounds of it something out of budget.
But the fact is there are bikes for all levels of riding at that budget.
Won't have the most fancy shocks or electric gears but it will be a bike and function as a bike.
priced out of biking is a bit dramatic, but its certainly a factor.
I'm much more careful and considered about what I buy, I do all my own maintenance and select components at least partly on the basis on whether they are home serviceable and how durable they are.
I also keep a maintenance schedule so I can head off problems before they arise.
I'm still a princess about suspension performance though.
I bet the kids in the video on the front page aren’t worrying about whether they have a Deore Mech or not.
I’m very privileged that I one could easily afford a 10k superbike but I’m also very fortunate in not giving a toss what anyone thinks, so I ride a Boardman hardtail bought on bike to work and at a discount so must have cost me about £500. It’s not because I’m tight it’s because it was the best value tool for the job at the time.
Id rather spend money giving my family amazing holidays than being over biked for my ability and my bravery. At the time I was just riding Blues and Reds with my young kids.
Similarly most of the time you’ll see me in an Hyundai i10, again because it the right tool for the job.
This is not aimed at the OP but If your self esteem is tied up in what bike you ride, car you drive or what group set is on your bike you really need to have a word with yourself. And similarly if you judge someone by what bike they are riding or their rear mech you need to take a long hard look in the mirror.
I grew up in abject poverty, so I’m never going to waste money on what is essentially a big toy. It amazes me that people put themselves is unaffordable debt for an expensive bike. The guy that had to sell his bike to fix his car. If your finances are that marginal buy a cheaper bike/components having a shiney bike with XTR isn’t a right.
There are good value bikes like Sondor, Boardman or on-one. Deore drivetrain is fine so is Microdrive and Clark’s or Deore Brakes.
Would be helpful if the OP stated his budget and the spec he has in mind.
Without that the thread is only an opportunity for comment about personal experiences; maybe that was the intention.
How many/few riders get the most out of their bikes?
If riders, generally, matched the spec they want to their ability I suspect they would be spending less but that's a very objective and rational approach to adopt.
Aspiration, marketing and the self justification in spending more than necessary all play into this.
The same comments generally apply to n+1; for disclosure - I have 4 bikes and a work in progress.
Not one of them completely brand new - 4 used frames, mainly new components, 1 nearly new complete bike.
Choose carefully, pick up components when/where you can.
20 years ago, everyone had a 32" colour TV and everyone watched it happily. And the 32" colour TVs you can buy today are much cheaper and much better and you could watch TV just fine on them. But because 55" 4K is out there, that's what people want and expect, and 32" colour isn't enough any more.
Same with bikes, we could all ride a cheap hardtail that's miles better than the bikes of years back, but better things exist. Things like droppers, hydraulic discs, tubeless, 1x etc are all part of the minimum spec now. People aren't being priced out, it's that expectations have increased faster than inflation.
Priced out, no way.
The knowledge in my head is too valuable.
I know all about the various categories of bikes, how to mostly maintain them, where to buy them and spare parts, new and second hand.
But most importantly, barring theft, I’m starting from a position of having two nice bikes and a cupboard of spares.
Someone starting from new will have a worse experience.
Maybe those if us who have been riding for a long time view things differently? I've been riding MTBs for just over thirty years and have never spent more than a grand on a bike.
I bet it correlates with those of us who think the rider going uphill should have right of way over those going downhill.
What about backpacks and ‘getting behind the saddle’
I have always bought Specialized however with their current pricing I now have an On One Freeranger gravel bike bought for £1500 new just before Covid struck,which is about my limit for new bike purchase.Best bike I have ever owned.
Recently I bought a 2007 limited edition Orange Clockwork for £500 as my hard tail and a 2010 Specialized XC FSR for £350 as my full suspension.Both have reminded me how good these older bikes are for general mountain biking.
Secondhand the problem comes when people try to pass on bikes bought at the new stratospheric prices and expect equally high prices on resale,however for most manufacturers the frame warranty only applies to the first owner and the prospective new owner is worried about risking too much money on a bike with an unknown history.
Maybe those if us who have been riding for a long time view things differently? I’ve been riding MTBs for just over thirty years and have never spent more than a grand on a bike.
Soz bro. I've been mtbing for 36 years I think and it was indeed a real struggle to convince myself to buy my first £1k+ bike. Since then however it's been all downhill and I've fallen completely into the no talent, no fitness, compensate with carbon fibre sad old man camp 😔
I bet it correlates with those of us who think the rider going uphill should have right of way over those going downhill.
Now you've confused me. Everyone thinks that, don't they?
I bet it correlates with those of us who think the rider going uphill should have right of way over those going downhill.
Now you’ve confused me. Everyone thinks that, don’t they?
Buuuuuut 192nd place on straaaaaaaavaaaaaaaaaa
I recommend getting a job at a bike shop. Not only will you be rich beyond your wildest dreams, you'll also great discounts on new bikes and will be able to sell them at a profit once you feel the urge to get another one.
There's also the option to buy something 'interesting'. I just bought an old Morewood DH bike for $660 Canadian, which translates to 'hardly anything'. I did a load of routine work to it and swapped some parts over from my stash, and I'm ready for a season in Whistler, for the less than the price of a carbon rim. And because it fits into the 'interesting' category, people look at it and say "That's sick!", rather than turning their nose up at it because it's 12 years old.
I just wish my pay raises (ha!) kept up with bike inflation 😉
Not priced out of MTBing, but nearly priced out of progressive geo full suss trsil5 bikes. Two and a half grand is a big spend and that's not much more than entry level for that kind of bike. I could get cheaper but it won't have the geo I want or it'll be a hard tail.
Of course, these bikes are good, but my salary is in the top 10%. Who is buying all these 4-5k carbon trail bikes?
Of course, these bikes are good, but my salary is in the top 10%. Who is buying all these 4-5k carbon trail bikes?
I mean, I’m not, but not in the way you are implying.
My salary is closer to minimum wage than national average.
It’s quite a well known problem that people often judge how well they’re doing relative to others rather than in an objective sense.
this very much depends on your friends and you. I certainly never judge on material things at all or compare what I have to others - just how much fun folk are having and no one in my group of friends does this either.
Its all about who is having the most fun not what you are riding or what you arrived in
Of course, these bikes are good, but my salary is in the top 10%. Who is buying all these 4-5k carbon trail bikes?
Those who have the money, or access to credit, just go at the weekend to FoD, BPW or the likes, go near the cafe at lunchtime and see the bikes that are around, there's no shortage of 4k plus bikes around, quite a few with their kids on 2k bikes as well, they're just spending money on this instead of something else.
It's just how you spend your money, or credit, there's no shortage of new cars on the road, or folk with new extensions, or holidays, etc, you choose what you do with your funds.
I don't want to derail the thread but I can (sort of) tolerate the rise in prices of "bike hardware" as there's a pay-off in terms of better functionality and reliability (though I'm not so sure about longevity) and it's something you get a lot of use out of
However, what I do have difficulty with is the cost of trips away to go biking...it's accommodation costs which I now find insane. The price of a nights accommodation seems to have inflated by 300% over the last couple of years. I'm not sure how much of that can be attributed to increased COVID cleaning...
The price of a nights accommodation seems to have inflated by 300% over the last couple of years.
You sure about that? Demand last year went right up obviously and because of supply and demand (and places trying to cover some of the losses of being closed for the year before) prices went up a bit/lot. But 300%?
In the next 12 months I can see it feeling really expensive though - the price of fuel to get there and the increased leccy/gas bills of where you are staying. Ouch.
Bloke today at Antur Stiniog on his orange Voodoo Bizango.
Bloke today at Antur Stiniog on his orange Voodoo Bizango.
Usually a rarity on uplift bike parks, but you do see them now and again, out enjoying themselves on whatever bike, i've seen someone on an older hardtail with standard seatpost doing BPW before, i doubt they were hitting many of the black trails!
Fact is if you're used to a certain spec level, be that XT, SLX or Deore then some people are getting priced out, you can easily pay over £3k for deore spec bikes but even then you're lumped with budget shock, fork, wheels and finishing kit, if you want a bike with lyrik or Pike ultimates for example the rest of the spec will be high end and pricey, so why can't they put a decent fork and shock with Deore spec and adjust the price accordingly, after all these are the parts you wear out and replace so it's up to you if you wanna upgrade to an XT mech etc or replace like for like.
I can see where the OP is coming from: I'm 50, decent job, been riding for years, and if I decided to get a new bike I wouldn't expect it to be "entry level". But where 2000 quid 10 years ago would have got you something close to the top of the range, these days it's going to be fairly average. So to get the kind of bike I think I "deserve" (SLX/Ultegra level, for example) I'll probably need to add another 1000 to my budget.
Which is not to say I need to spend that, or that I wouldn't enjoy riding that "entry level" spec bike, or that today's Deore isn't better than the 2010 XT stuff I have on my current bike, it's more that the top end has expanded beyond my budget, dragging the prices of the lower spec ranges up with it.
But where 2000 quid 10 years ago would have got you something close to the top of the range,
Frame only yeah ?
My bikes are insured for more than my car.
That'd make an interesting poll actually.
But where 2000 quid 10 years ago would have got you something close to the top of the range,
I think you’re forgetting that 10 years ago was 2012. £6k bikes were being offered by mainstream brands then.
my salary is in the top 10%. Who is buying all these 4-5k carbon trail bikes?
If your salary is in the top 10% and you can't afford 5k on a bike then what on earth are you pissing your money away on? Priorities, people!
The last full bike I bought was a Specialized Pitch Pro full suss with Pikes and decent kit for £1050. Ok I know that was what, 10 years ago, but a similar bike now would be £2.5 – £3k? You can’t explain that price hike purely with inflation.
Really? The Spesh Camber I bought in 2011/12 cost about that much and had recon silvers/ario/Deore mech and alivio/acera, crappy Tektro brakes. I'm sure I could go to Go Outdoors tomorrow and get a better riding Polygon for similar money that inflation has in fact made cheaper.
what on earth are you pissing your money away on?
You haven’t seen his car threads, have you?
😉😘
Bloke today at Antur Stiniog on his orange Voodoo Bizango.
That was me.
(Not actually me. Or today. But the only time I went to Antur was with a 26er Boardman Team HT. I had a great time, albeit got a bit battered and stuck to the blues)
If your salary is in the top 10% and you can’t afford 5k on a bike then what on earth are you pissing your money away on? Priorities, people!
There's a lot of metrics to feed into any of this, such as household income, kids, area, etc, so i wouldn't be saying just because you earn in the top 10% you should have readily available income to get a bike, i know a couple of poor sods who have talented kids who cost a fortune for lessons, trips, etc in sports, he'd probably want them to take up biking to save money!
he’d probably want them to take up biking to save money!
This is not the way to wealth!
Here's a comparison.
The last brand new MTB I bought was in 2013/14, it was an On One 45650b. 2x10 Deore, Sektor gold forks, Reverb dropper. I paid £1150 for it IIRC.
Today, PX / On One typically punt out the Scandal or Big Dog with a low end but functional spec, for around the £1k mark.
They’re doing the Hello Dave, iirc with GX eagle, pikes and a reverb for £1450 until tomorrow
Yeah hardtsils are great VFM, better than ever. Just not FS.
Top 10% of household income level, in UK 2021, was £80,000+.
They’re doing the Hello Dave, iirc with GX eagle, pikes and a reverb for £1450 until tomorrow
Well according to the bank of England £1150 in 2013 was £1402 in 2021.
As I said earlier in the thread. It's not about the bikes, it's about life, world events and priorities.
In 2012 or 13 an insurance payout of around £2200 gave me a few options of 26" full sus with slx level parts, lyriks (with mission control damper) and decent shock if my memory serves me correctly.
Current standards would put that in a £4k+ category.
Top 10% of household income level, in UK 2021, was £80,000+.
Are you sure?
That's a lot lower than I'd have expected
.
I tried to Google it and failed dismally.
Top 10% of household income level, in UK 2021, was £80,000+.
Are you sure?
That’s a lot lower than I’d have expected
.
I tried to Google it and failed dismally.
According to this data the 90th percentile in the 2018/19 tax year was £56,200 before tax. It's a shame they don't have more recent statistics.
I've put it into a google sheet for easy viewing.
“ Are you sure?
That’s a lot lower than I’d have expected”
Most vaguely well-off people think they’re far less wealthy than they actually are. This is one of the main reasons that inequality is increasing - the tax system is completely broken as no party dares levy fair taxes on those with more money.
In 2012 or 13 an insurance payout of around £2200 gave me a few options of 26″ full sus with slx level parts, lyriks (with mission control damper) and decent shock if my memory serves me correctly.
So about £2,700 in today’s money?
https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/mountain-bikes/trail-bikes/spectral/27-5/spectral-27.5-al-6/3184.html
That’s £2,500 with better components (yes modern Deore is better than ten year old SLX, and those brakes are brilliant, I run them) and one of those new dropper post contraptions that push up the price of today’s bike that little bit more.
That’s a lot lower than I’d have expected
Well off people don’t appreciate how most people live.
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1197651546940608514?s=20&t=K6PNFN-3P-GxDBY837gjng
That's priceless! Actually, it's got a price and it's not a lot - about £80K.
I find it hard to appreciate that someone on above £80K, which would by definition make you quite astute you would have thought, would be so unaware where their wage sat in the grand scheme of things. I guess it could be a mean/median/modal average confusion maybe. At one point in that he doubted he was in the top 50%!
You haven’t seen his car threads, have you?
If he chooses to spend more on cars than bikes, well that's his problem right there.
Ride what you enjoy and can justify. My MTB is nearly 8 years old and I didn't get it new. The last bike I got brand new was the roadie and that was through the Cycle To Work scheme so is comparatively budget compared to others. That's cool though. I love them both.
Am I 'priced out' of biking? No.
If you ride big bike park lines you're likely to have an expensive bike. Riding bikes in the woods can be a really simple thing though.
I've said it before here - I don't have any more fun on my bike now than I did when I was riding a £160 Raleigh or a £500 Marin in the later 80s and early 90s*. Rigid bikes and rim brakes and no-one knew any better. Yes there have been improvements since then but no we don't need them all.
£500 then is £1200 bike now. £1200 for a CrMo frame and fork with rim brakes. Bikes can be better value than they were then. Yet the bike industry has successfully complicated, marketed and obsolesced its way into riders thinking a packed feature-list £4-6k bike is what's right for group rides at the weekend. It's not wrong.. but it's far from essential.
*Edit, yeah I know "get a decent bike now then!" ..set myself up : )
Can’t believe no one has mentioned being forced into more cycling by rising prices
All depends what transport you use I suppose. I drive a car that does 60mpg so petrol increasing is not noticeable to me and it is certainly not going to change my method of getting to work to cycling as it won't most people who are spending £3K+ on bikes.
Just to point out, 90th percentile is household income of £80k+, individuals it's the £56k linked to by @appltd.
As ever, many people are a lot wealthier than they they think and don't see the realities of what a lot of people live off financially.
All this talk of amazing bikes for £2.5-£4k, I'm wealthier than average by a fair margin, but I can't / won't afford that.
I think it's easy to complain about cassettes, but I've just looked at XT chainsets and they're about £125. They've been that price for literally decades now.
Second hand is the way forward. I’ve only ever bought two bikes new. Now I keep a bike until I fancy a change and then sell it and use the fund’s for something else. Treated myself last year to a new frame and some nice wheels then built a bike over a few months from a mixture of used and new bits. Came in over budget but that always happens. After selling the previous bike it cost me about £600
Cycling is accessible, Bicycles are aspirational, don't confuse the two op.
The bike that £2.5k bought 10 years ago may have been mid to high end of a manufacturers range, whereas now its much lower down probably. I'd argue that they both perform the same for any given measurable though (weight, ride comfort, longevity etc).It just wont have the same model rear mech. Technology and manufacturing techniques have moved on at such a pace that the trickle down of 'quality' components is impresive. Deore 1x12 groupset and brakes? one of the best on the market imho!
But does it matter? If it doesnt, buy what you can afford/justify and enjoy a bike that is probably better than anything on the market 10/15 years ago that wasnt at the bleeding edge of tech (and budget).
If it does matter what rear mech you have on your bike, well, give up now. You'll never win the arms race to buy the newest/most expensive thing out there so give up trying so hard.
As for rear cassettes as a measure of value, its doing more heavy lifting now than in the 3x and 2x era, of course it will be more expensive. Manufacturers have effectively moved the front rings onto the cassette, so we're still paying for them. As mentioned above, the only real change currently is the lack of bargains/sales on day to day kit, supply still cant keep up with demand and wont for a while yet.
9-10 years ago I worked in an LBS. £2200 got you a full suss Saracen Ariel with an alu frame, fixed seatpost and Acera 2x9 speed gears (deore rear mech). Nice bike, rode well, but not mid to high end.
That guy on QT is priceless. The mind boggles how he landed a job paying north of £80k.
The weird thing is that he did have z glimmer of sense when he started ranting about (m)billionaires, but only a bit. And he's probably the sort of cretin who thinks IHT is bad as well.
I will say in defense of 12 speed is that unlike 8/9/10 speed you don't have to change cassettes chains and so on every 12 month to stop the whole thing grinding itself into dust. They last much much longer than stuff of a decade ago. And overall I think bikes have become better, the components on them by and large are fit for purpose, they aren't beefed up roadie stuff anymore, frames are better, and even basic forks are light years ahead of what used to be offered at premium prices.
And bike prices have been made for ages now, It's been at least 20 years since the first 5 or 6 figure MTBs were released and they still sell out, so some-ones buying them.
If your salary is in the top 10% and you can’t afford 5k on a bike then what on earth are you pissing your money away on? Priorities, people!
And thats it right how much do you priorities bike stuff. Im not in the 10% but earn a good salary we don't have kids and riding bikes is pretty much all I do so I save and miss the odd holiday with my wife for it. Although it seems more expensive but I think changing a bike every few years does make it cheaper I just got a rolling frame set and am going to swap my drivetrain over.
I will say in defense of 12 speed is that unlike 8/9/10 speed you don’t have to change cassettes chains and so on every 12 month to stop the whole thing grinding itself into dust.
How does that work?
Is it just better materials or is there something in the design?
I hope you don't think it was me claiming to be poor whilst being in te top 10%. I posted that to demonstrate that despite earning a lot now (wasn't always the case) and being a keen cyclist I am still not in the market for high end bikes.
Certainly the prices we've become accustomed too are now much higher on average.
I need a new pair of road shifters - Shimano ones (105) are nearly £200 a pair. Or I could pay silly money on eBay for a tatty pair. I just can't justify that so I'll be going down the Ali express route and trying the sensah shifters.
Ultimately it's not a big deal. If you can't have ultegra but only 105 or tiagra, you can't have xt but only deore - does it really matter? It's only bikes.
Is it just better materials or is there something in the design?
Honestly I don't really know, but yes, materials better design all play their part. I do know that my last 12 speed chain and cassette lasted 3 years and was really still useable after nearly 6000km. Yes it was harder to get the cable tension and really smooth shifts but I'm pretty sure I could've wrestled another years use out of it. chain wasn't even at 0.75 and that was a mix of GX, and XO1. It's very impressive
It would be interesting to see like for like (as far as possible given supply restrictions) sales figures at these new on average higher prices. Perhaps the market will accept these higher prices longer term.
As mentioned earlier some complete bike specs just don't add up price wise considering everything is oem. It used to be way more expensive option to assemble your own custom build, but I reckon with the help of a few sale bargains I could easily beat a few companies with equivalent if not better parts.
I hope you don’t think it was me claiming to be poor whilst being in te top 10%. I posted that to demonstrate that despite earning a lot now (wasn’t always the case) and being a keen cyclist I am still not in the market for high end bikes.
don't you know, being a higher rate taxpayer puts you firmly in the high roller bracket.
or at least able to afford a high roller...
6 figure MTBs
Got a link? Reckon I’d struggle to commit north of 100k into a single bike.
I hope you don’t think it was me claiming to be poor whilst being in te top 10%. I posted that to demonstrate that despite earning a lot now (wasn’t always the case) and being a keen cyclist I am still not in the market for high end bikes.
I read it as intended by you
But I do have a solution
"eat the rich"
I'm going down the 2nd hand route for my "new" bike. Trying to get it all bought and working before the energy price hikes. My last new new bike was a PX FreeRanger on cyclescheme which works great with slicks on as well so I'm getting rid of my road bike now and just keeping the two bikes.
Do you remember that immensely naff Gold plated Muddy Fox Courier?
( still only 5 figures though)
It used to be way more expensive option to assemble your own custom build
Was it? I mean, maybe, but there is always a pile of stuff you get rid of at the earliest opportunity on a pre-built so you have to cost that in as well.
i’ve seen someone on an older hardtail with standard seatpost doing BPW before, i doubt they were hitting many of the black trails!
Why do you doubt that? Do you think ability is proportional to the depth of the riders pockets?
Never been to BPW but having seen some videos I'd probably be happy hitting some of those blacks on a hardtail and I'm by no means a riding god, it is nothing more than a big BMX track. I did the Naughty Northumbrian on a DMR Trailstar LT with 130mm revs and a 90mm stem and I've done Fort William DH on similar.
Why would you need a dropper at a bike park anyway?
There was a gold fatbike that’s doing the rounds in the emirates, that is 7 figures though. And not sold out, oddly.
Never been to BPW but having seen some videos I’d probably be happy hitting some of those blacks on a hardtail and I’m by no means a riding god, it is nothing more than a big BMX track
LOL yeah.... ummmmm errrrrm. Sure.
BMX blue 🙂