I hope he sees this then and posts something. I’m coming across as a borderline stalker now but I think his frames are a cut above the majority of what’s out there. If I had the money the 130 or Contour would be top of my list.
If I was to step out my door the first bije related business of any kind I would come to in swarf.
Want me to take some photos through the windows you wee stalker?
flexing the stays takes energy
What do you think suspension does?
I suppose it’s very much each to their own, but they do nothing for me. That warranty is fussy (and short) - I accept it’s the builders prerogative and all that but as mentioned it does discount the majority of UK adult males once kitted up ready to go.
I know folk have said that it’s likely that the frames will stand way more weight than that, but if this is the case why wouldn’t the builder show faith in his product and warranty it?
I’m a fan of steel frames and currently have a Flaremax on order. I have nothing against Swarf and actually admire anyone who starts up a business building frames in this day and age, but this just isn’t for me.
flexing the stays takes energy
What do you think suspension does?
This comment was picking up on what I posted in that by the suspension action having to flex the seatstay this would reduce the amount of small bump compliance available. I don't know if this would be noticeable when ridden?
I expect that if you took a shock off the 155frame and cycled it through its travel that it would have some resistance through its suspension movement due to having to bend the seatstays, as opposed to a 4bar or linkage actuated single pivot with a full complement of bearings that would feel smooth with no resistance when the shock is removed and the suspension cycled.
There are clearly some forces at play in the 155 pivotless back end as a small brace has been added between the chain and seatstays. I just don't know why you wouldn't add a bearing/pivot? The upper seatstay pivot bearing would also thank you for it not having to deal with those tube flexing forces being applied to it.
The flex that the Swarf seatstay sees is super small because of the way he’s run his linkages. With the amount of tweak frames have to get them to set to alignment it’s funny some on here are losing their shit over something they simply isn’t an issue.
And as for those losing more over the weight limit. Oh my days.
It’s so cool that there are so many options out there now, for people wanting safe, chummy, Chinese made frames whose huge margins mean they can offer ludicrous warranties and mega bucks promos and sponsored riders. Alongside super small brands making weird stuff in the U.K.
Still puzzled why people can’t see it’s like football, and some people will always back the big teams and some people love supporting the smaller local sides.
The upper seatstay pivot bearing would also thank you for it not having to deal with those tube flexing forces being applied to it.
It’s a bearing. It doesn’t know. Does it?
Want me to take some photos through the windows you wee stalker?
Yes 😀
and also what Brant said too. Someone will be along in a sec to accuse you of making overly expensive clothes that don’t fit them properly and that’s not fair.
It’s a bearing. It doesn’t know. Does it?
You know what i mean
Regarding the effect of the flex stay on the suspension, this suggests that Adrian has probably considered it:
https://www.swarfcycles.co.uk/test.html
Nothing to drool over, does it look like a £3k frame NO, looks like meccano to me, the hardware looks like whatever was rolling around in the workshop spares drawer, good job there's no horst link you'd probably snag yourself on it, the main pivot bearing clamping arrangement isn't exactly sleek and modern, are there any bearing shields on the pivots, can't really tell from the pics, then there's an IS brake mount and 44mm headtube like its from the middle of the previous decade.
Why would you not use an IS mount and a 44mm headtube on a steel frame?
Ah here we go:-
the stay flexes a total of 6mm (3mm up and 3mm down), the steel stays have no issue whatsoever with this small amount of flex.
from:-
https://www.swarfcycles.co.uk/blog/swarf-full-suspension-a-brief-history-part-15633199
Adrian at Swarf is a proper data nerd... my own first instinct is that a bearing would make more sense despite the small movement, just because of the force needed to "spring" the seatstay and the return force. But that'd be the first thing he thought about too, after establishing there was no fatigue issue, and he'll have mathsed and tested the crap out of it. And it is at the end of the day all controlled by a spring anyway and the less controlled forces out there will be pretty small in the grand scheme. Since it made it to production then it's not stopping the bike from working exactly how he wants it.
Or, put it another way, I'm not going to see some glaring issue he's not thought of and neither most likely is anyone else on here.
Super expensive, pretty heavy, pretty ugly, and with dodgy warranties. Probably why I'm not droooling yet.
£500 more than a Rocket Max for frame only but handmade by one guy. It’s steel, there’s always a slight weight penalty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. I think it’s the best looking full sus out there. Mainly because they’re all pretty ugly and this one looks like a hardtail. So a much more pleasing aesthetic to my eyes.
What’s dodgy about the warranty? The fact that he’s stipulated a weight limit?
We all like different things but some of you are just being dicks.
“ We all like different things but some of you are just being dicks.”
This kind of behaviour is why I stopped reading or posting on a UK forum in my business’s (and other main hobby’s) sector. You can be making world acclaimed products with amazing reviews from owners and publications but a small selection of men from your own country are on a weird mission to find problems with everything you do. It’s depressing but I think it says more about the forumites than the product or manufacturer.
I absolutely love the 155 and have been talking to Adrian about ordering one for a while. He asked me to wait for the new website, so I’ve just emailed to get myself on the waiting list. Super excited!
Wow, what a thread, I would've thought a single owner-operator making "pretty cool things" would be very much up the STW demographic, no..?
Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that, but as suss frames go, I think it looks pretty cool, bet it looks nicer in the flesh though as websites never do the real thing justice in my experience. Looks a hoot to ride
Hope it sells well.
That’s a poor example, we aren’t comparing a big thick chunky coil or leaf spring (both of which commonly fail)
Commonly fail because there’s an incredible amount of them, not because failure rate is high.
the hardware looks like whatever was rolling around in the workshop spares drawer,
Non-proprietary parts on a MTB?! Never catch on
I previously slagged off the looks which is just peoples tastes, but the flack for the flex-stay is unfounded, such a small amount of flex will be well within the elastic limit. You will likely feel some resistance with the shock removed but the flex-stay will be acting as a spring and this will accounted for when you set the sag. For people looking for a full suspension with modern geometry that looks like an old steel frame I imagine this ticks all the boxes.
Thanks to whoever shared the blog section of the website, a really interesting read and some really interesting frames/bikes on there, I really like the look of the old carbon fibre back end:
It's really interesting to read through the process of the design iterations. It's also nice to see someone with a good engineering background going through this process instead of the cowboys behind some other boutique bike brands.
This kind of behaviour is why I stopped reading or posting on a UK forum in my business’s (and other main hobby’s) sector. You can be making world acclaimed products with amazing reviews from owners and publications but a small selection of men from your own country are on a weird mission to find problems with everything you do. It’s depressing but I think it says more about the forumites than the product or manufacturer.
And on here it often appears to be unhappy middle-aged men who don't seem to ride any more, but want to assert their superior knowledge about something they've just taken a cursory glance at.
Do they not realise how pathetic they are? Or do they know, but carry on anyway?
Am I just noticing it more on here or has it got worse this last year, as the dullards drive other users away?
It's drool from me!
For people looking for a full suspension with modern geometry that looks like an old steel frame I imagine this ticks all the boxes.
Exactly this. It’s clear that a lot of time and effort has gone in to testing too if you take the time to read Adrian’s posts. I’m not a big fan of swooping lines, complex shapes or over complex shock designs. Hence why I love the look of Swarf’s frames. To my eye they look like a bike should and seem to be designed for folk who want to get out and ride in all weathers with minimum fuss and upkeep.
For the time being I’ll stick with my Stooge Dirtbomb and build a Swarf in my head.
I like it, can't afford it, probably close to the weight limit but it still appeals despite me being a grumpy middle-aged man... I must be broken or something.
then there’s an IS brake mount and 44mm headtube like its from the middle of the previous decade.
So the most adaptable headtube and brake mounting standard are a bad thing because they weren't invented ten minutes ago?
Flex stays aren't a new or particularly groundbreaking concept either, using steel's elastic properties to eliminate the need for another set of bearings is a perfectly acceptable idea.
Spurious bullshit reasons to dislike things that nobody is forcing you to buy? Peak internetting.
But don't worry, SBC, Trek, giant, Santa Cruz or any of the other purveyors of overpriced cookiecutter dandyhorses will happily take similar sums from you for their products with lots of welds, bearings and soon to be superseded "standards"...
I think it looks great tbh - I’d probably prefer it to have a Horst link - but there are loads of bikes out there now with flex stays and steel can be built to have flex so it’s a non issue here.
The cost is a lot - but if it’s British hand made from quality steel tubing and there are the known Covid issues around shipping and supply then it all adds up.
I couldn’t personally justify the cost and don’t have any desire for a steel full suss bike - they’re generally heavier than alloy or carbon and I don’t see the benefit in the steel other than the look in this case.
For reference, I bought a custom steel hardtail though as I can see the (theoretical) benefit of steel in a hardtail. I suspect mine is overbuilt and probably doesn’t actually have that much flex (Marino) as I went for the cheaper option - but it’s a step up in reduction of buzz over my last alloy hardtail. Bigger tyres could be making more difference though.
I wonder what’s driving the 90kg weight limit on the warranty side of things - I’m 5’9 and until I lost a bit of weight recently I was 82kgs without being enormously fat. Add a few litres of water plus tools and that’s getting on for the limit as it is. This realistically restricts he bike to shorter riders or tall thin ones.
At the end of the day you pay your money and make your choice - we’re all different and it would be boring if we weren’t 🤷♂️
This kind of behaviour is why I stopped reading or posting on a UK forum in my business’s (and other main hobby’s) sector. You can be making world acclaimed products with amazing reviews from owners and publications but a small selection of men from your own country are on a weird mission to find problems with everything you do. It’s depressing but I think it says more about the forumites than the product or manufacturer.
Playing the devil’s advocate here but an internet presence is probably essential these days in order to attract customers, and with an internet presence come keyboard warriors… otherwise known as potential customers???
Contrary to what Brant says, I can’t see anyone here losing their shit over the lack of a seat stay pivot; people are commenting/critiquing based on their knowledge (no doubt influenced by other manufacturers internet presence) and preferences. It’s an internet discussion forum - people are allowed to do this.
I admire what Swarf are doing, I like the hardtail aesthetic he’s going for but there are other bits I don’t like… that’s my personal opinion/taste/aesthetic at work. Seeing as this is the internet and the internet has given me a voice, then I’m choosing to use my voice. Doesn’t make me a hater, just voicing an opinion.
In the past some of the so called forum “big hitters” have been admonished for bullying posts. If someone’s opinion differed to theirs they set about them like internet pack animals. This thread is creeping a little close to this. People are allowed to voice their opinions without being described as a hater or similar.
keyboard warriors… otherwise known as potential customers???
Experience says it can be better not to have them as customers, and instead deal with more genuine people who appreciate what you are making, and are asking questions to find things out rather than off hand rubbish your work.
Think it's a lovely looking thing, but that 90kg limit rules me out - suspect it will rule out a lot of folks at the larger end of the sizing. I'm guessing the limit is related tot hat flex pivot and the amount of force and flex it's designed for.
The 155 does look nice. I wonder how that weight limit would be enforced. Do you have to send in a picture of you on the scales when submitting a claim?
Am surprised at the number of people complaining about the weight limit. And secretly impressed they have managed to use a keyboard given their pudgy fingers must hit 3 keys at once
I think they look cool, may get one in the future
Am surprised at the number of people complaining about the weight limit. And secretly impressed they have managed to use a keyboard given their pudgy fingers must hit 3 keys at once
I use a dialing wand.
grahamt1980
Am surprised at the number of people complaining about the weight limit.
The "average man" who weighs 84kg is only 5'9"
Even allowing for cyclists being a bit fitter/lighter than average (which isn't always the case), most folks closer to 6' and above will be close to the limit or beyond it.
This kind of behaviour is why I stopped reading or posting on a UK forum in my business’s (and other main hobby’s) sector. You can be making world acclaimed products with amazing reviews from owners and publications but a small selection of men from your own country are on a weird mission to find problems with everything you do. It’s depressing but I think it says more about the forumites than the product or manufacturer.
If a company can't take some mild criticism off some randoms on the internet who have given no evidence of their credentials to give said criticism then you are right, they should stay off the internet. At the same time there's loads of (Sick!) companies out there, who appear to have no engineering credentials producing bikes. This thread and the criticism has only boosted Swarfs profile and apparent quality, in the face of a pretty restrictive warranty and what at first sight appeared to be just another steel full sus but for more money than a cotic rocket. I'd say this thread has benefited them on the whole.
as an owner of a Starling, the looks definitely appeal to me. I see them out quite often where I ride and they are really lovely things in the flesh.
What Brant says.... shudders.... did I really say that? 🙂 Having the option for niche stuff made custom or semi-custom locally can never be a bad thing.
Would love Adrian to pop up some strain gauge data so we could really see which of the armchair fatigue analysts actually know what they are looking at. I can't see how the flex stay will influence small bump compliance as it is just one of many springs coupled in series in the spring mass system (i.e. just an additive part of the overall spring rate). A draggy seizing bush would be worse as that offers rather random damping and dissipates energy. Even then I doubt if you'd notice it..... There isn't a damper directly at the flex stay, but as you can't get stay flex without also generating movement of the rocker and shock it gets damped at the shock.
I'm only a hobbyist, but all my dropouts are custom made and I've never found the need to build with anything other than an IS brake mount. A steel tapered head tube offers nothing over 44mm apart from weight and complex tube mitres.
I think it's really braw, his bikes look great. Weight limit wouldn't bother me, kitted up at 6'2" I'd be there or thereabouts, I wonder if these folk moaning about it stick to their suspension maint intervals etc?.
Or maybe just they're just bawsacks who like to feel superior....
Personally I'm not hating, merely curious.
In reality this is probably correct
I can’t see how the flex stay will influence small bump compliance as it is just one of many springs coupled in series in the spring mass system (i.e. just an additive part of the overall spring rate). A draggy seizing bush would be worse as that offers rather random damping and dissipates energy.
and thinking about it, using bearings/bushings on a joint that rotates 0.1 degrees seems more stupid, and that is the conventionally accepted way of doing it.
I think they look lovely, but I'm a bit of a steel full sus fanboi. Currently on a Starlng, had a Cotic before that.
Wouldn't be put off by the flex stays and he weight limit isn't an issue but the Starling's only 3 months old and I'm loving it.
As mick says above, the flex stay will be designed into the suspension/damping - works for lots of bikes, no reason it can't work in steel same as it does for carbon.
IS has the advantage that you're not removing and rethreading bolts into the frame when removing the brake for maintenance - post mount you often have to thread directly into the frame without an adapter - I much prefer stripped threads on an adapter than a frame.
44 headtube just looks right on a steel frame, or at least looks least bad - a 56 would look way too thick with thin steel tubes, and would probably weight a ton too
What do you think suspension does?
It certainly doesn't take energy the damper does that
If a company can’t take some mild criticism off some randoms on the internet who have given no evidence of their credentials to give said criticism then you are right, they should stay off the internet. At the same time there’s loads of (Sick!) companies out there, who appear to have no engineering credentials producing bikes. This thread and the criticism has only boosted Swarfs profile and apparent quality, in the face of a pretty restrictive warranty and what at first sight appeared to be just another steel full sus but for more money than a cotic rocket. I’d say this thread has benefited them on the whole.
Utter rubbish , you do not need engineering credentials to sell a product these days other than to weirdo geek shits , you can hire someone to do this for you ,If you can market it then they will come, Rob Roskopp isn't any engineer but sells a shit ton of bikes,
There are companies out there who have plenty of failures even the ones you think have some god like designer behind them , they have been known to offer full refunds to people to keep their mouths shut maybe
Maybe? thats why there's a careful warranty on this because hes not large and cant afford to replace them when they break ,one man bands are often eeking a living not rolling in it.
I heard someone say once that a mountain bike model that never has a single break is a failure in design, as its far too overbuilt. If you design for some tubby biffer to uplift it every weekend for a decade and case every jump then it will be too stiff and dead for the majority of riders.
I also don't like the seatstay pivot/linkage bolts in single shear but Im only a non bike riding armchair engineer so please continue to flame away.
Now I will say I'm happy to be proved wrong - if a flexing steel tube is superior to a pivot/bearing then I'll hold my hands up and say so but so far I'm voicing my opinion on something that only has limited information referring to a smaller travel frame (the 6mm deflection mentioned) and 'aerospace' spouted by fan Bois on here.
Where has anybody claimed that flex stays are superior? I think you’ll find they haven’t. You might well be an engineer who works with metal and makes bikes, I don’t know. What I do know is that Adrian from Swarf is an engineer who does work with metal and build bikes. Maybe ask him if you’re curious?
