What Brant says.... shudders.... did I really say that? 🙂 Having the option for niche stuff made custom or semi-custom locally can never be a bad thing.
Would love Adrian to pop up some strain gauge data so we could really see which of the armchair fatigue analysts actually know what they are looking at. I can't see how the flex stay will influence small bump compliance as it is just one of many springs coupled in series in the spring mass system (i.e. just an additive part of the overall spring rate). A draggy seizing bush would be worse as that offers rather random damping and dissipates energy. Even then I doubt if you'd notice it..... There isn't a damper directly at the flex stay, but as you can't get stay flex without also generating movement of the rocker and shock it gets damped at the shock.
I'm only a hobbyist, but all my dropouts are custom made and I've never found the need to build with anything other than an IS brake mount. A steel tapered head tube offers nothing over 44mm apart from weight and complex tube mitres.
I think it's really braw, his bikes look great. Weight limit wouldn't bother me, kitted up at 6'2" I'd be there or thereabouts, I wonder if these folk moaning about it stick to their suspension maint intervals etc?.
Or maybe just they're just bawsacks who like to feel superior....
Personally I'm not hating, merely curious.
In reality this is probably correct
I can’t see how the flex stay will influence small bump compliance as it is just one of many springs coupled in series in the spring mass system (i.e. just an additive part of the overall spring rate). A draggy seizing bush would be worse as that offers rather random damping and dissipates energy.
and thinking about it, using bearings/bushings on a joint that rotates 0.1 degrees seems more stupid, and that is the conventionally accepted way of doing it.
I think they look lovely, but I'm a bit of a steel full sus fanboi. Currently on a Starlng, had a Cotic before that.
Wouldn't be put off by the flex stays and he weight limit isn't an issue but the Starling's only 3 months old and I'm loving it.
As mick says above, the flex stay will be designed into the suspension/damping - works for lots of bikes, no reason it can't work in steel same as it does for carbon.
IS has the advantage that you're not removing and rethreading bolts into the frame when removing the brake for maintenance - post mount you often have to thread directly into the frame without an adapter - I much prefer stripped threads on an adapter than a frame.
44 headtube just looks right on a steel frame, or at least looks least bad - a 56 would look way too thick with thin steel tubes, and would probably weight a ton too
What do you think suspension does?
It certainly doesn't take energy the damper does that
If a company can’t take some mild criticism off some randoms on the internet who have given no evidence of their credentials to give said criticism then you are right, they should stay off the internet. At the same time there’s loads of (Sick!) companies out there, who appear to have no engineering credentials producing bikes. This thread and the criticism has only boosted Swarfs profile and apparent quality, in the face of a pretty restrictive warranty and what at first sight appeared to be just another steel full sus but for more money than a cotic rocket. I’d say this thread has benefited them on the whole.
Utter rubbish , you do not need engineering credentials to sell a product these days other than to weirdo geek shits , you can hire someone to do this for you ,If you can market it then they will come, Rob Roskopp isn't any engineer but sells a shit ton of bikes,
There are companies out there who have plenty of failures even the ones you think have some god like designer behind them , they have been known to offer full refunds to people to keep their mouths shut maybe
Maybe? thats why there's a careful warranty on this because hes not large and cant afford to replace them when they break ,one man bands are often eeking a living not rolling in it.
I heard someone say once that a mountain bike model that never has a single break is a failure in design, as its far too overbuilt. If you design for some tubby biffer to uplift it every weekend for a decade and case every jump then it will be too stiff and dead for the majority of riders.
I also don't like the seatstay pivot/linkage bolts in single shear but Im only a non bike riding armchair engineer so please continue to flame away.
Now I will say I'm happy to be proved wrong - if a flexing steel tube is superior to a pivot/bearing then I'll hold my hands up and say so but so far I'm voicing my opinion on something that only has limited information referring to a smaller travel frame (the 6mm deflection mentioned) and 'aerospace' spouted by fan Bois on here.
Where has anybody claimed that flex stays are superior? I think you’ll find they haven’t. You might well be an engineer who works with metal and makes bikes, I don’t know. What I do know is that Adrian from Swarf is an engineer who does work with metal and build bikes. Maybe ask him if you’re curious?
I also don’t like the seatstay pivot/linkage bolts in single shear but Im only a non bike riding armchair engineer so please continue to flame away.
People are funny about single shear sometimes. Single sided hubs get similar flack.
Best not look how pedals and cranks and forks are attached.
i didn’t want to get involved, but although i think you’re just lampooning the people who like this kind of bike, from this kind of builder, no one has mentioned aerospace.
the advantage of a flexing stay is that it is lighter and simpler than a bearing.
personally, i like the look of this bike and i think it is great that companies like this exist.
i wondered recently if a custom builder would build a steel frame with the kind of tubes that were used pre-CEN for a sprightly feeling ride.
i also wondered if the usual 120kilo rider weight comes from those regulations. if not, then where does it come from? anyone know?
People are funny about single shear sometimes. Single sided hubs get similar flack.
Best not look how pedals and cranks and forks are attached
Not directly comparable - you know that. The pedal to crank connection doesn't directly involve bearings in that single shear interface. The size of pedal spindles/threads are fine for their shear loading as is the M6/M8/whatever sized fastener used in a single shear seatstay application. The issue is the close proximity of a bearing that then has to potentially deal with any loadings that wouldn't exist in a double shear design.
Going off at a tangent, these looked so promising… (not the first company to propose it, but no one every seems to push through to production, do they)…
Am surprised at the number of people complaining about the weight limit.
You're aware that one P Sagan weighs over 80kg (EDIT at the last Tour)? He's no slouch on an MTB as I recall.
You’re aware that one P Sagan weighs over 80kg (EDIT at the last Tour)? He’s no slouch on an MTB as I recall.
You are aware that most biffers (sorry, the average UK male) bear no resemblance to one P Sagan. More likely to slouch on an MTB than actually ride it hard.
Tbh I like the simplicity of the looks but the warranty wording and duration would be a big concern for me
An interesting added point alluded to above, flexing the stays takes energy, as opposed to a bearing design where the action of the suspension is nominally resistance free.
Flexing the suspension members is actually used to DECRSEACE the resistance and increase sensitivity.
Anywhere you've got bearings, bushings, or bits rubbing against each other you've got friction. whereas a bit of steel flexing within the elastic limit will exabit very little friction of hysteresis. You're down to the inertia needed to move it (it'll weigh less than a bearing housing though) being lost and a very small amount of hysteresis.
Gary Fisher did it with aluminum frames too. And they're far from the only ones.
Yeti were mentioned but IRRC their frames used a little flexible insert, the frame itself was just inadvertently a bit too flexible too!
Also, all of this argument ignores the fact that a lot of suspension designs flex a lot more than that laterally anyway.
Utter rubbish , you do not need engineering credentials to sell a product these days other than to weirdo geek shits , you can hire someone to do this for you ,If you can market it then they will come, Rob Roskopp isn’t any engineer but sells a shit ton of bikes,
Taking an interest in bike design = geek shits
I don't think you can compare Rob Roskopps company to either Sick! bikes or Swarf....
Not sure what you have been offended by in this thread to refer to people as "geek shits". You can hire a weirdo geek shit to do the weirdo geek shit but the other weirdo geek shits better not talk about it on an internet forum, stupid geek shits.
Flexing the suspension members is actually used to DECRSEACE the resistance and increase sensitivity.
Anywhere you’ve got bearings, bushings, or bits rubbing against each other you’ve got friction. whereas a bit of steel flexing within the elastic limit will exabit very little friction of hysteresis.
I'm not gonna weigh in on the physics, but I also see a big benefit of them.
Anyone who's had a horst link or faux bar bike and done a bearing change will probably have found it's the little ones at the back of the swingarm which invariably seize up first.
Why not remove them from the equation if you can do so, while also saving weight and arriving at a more elegant solution?
You are aware that most biffers (sorry, the average UK male) bear no resemblance to one P Sagan. More likely to slouch on an MTB than actually ride it hard.
I think the point being made was that Peter Sagan, with a loaded camelback would be close to the warranty limit. Not everyone over or around that limit is a fat biffer. Once you are over 6ft and / or have any level of muscularity you are pushing it.
I’d wager most bikes have a recommended weight limit and the manufacturers just don’t bother to mention it. Most of the big players can afford a few warranty claims from the tall, muscular average mountain biker. One man bands probably not so much hence why it’s part of the warranty text. If you’re (s****s) tall and muscly simply buy one of the other bikes that are out there.
Love the guy who mentioned the warranty being hidden. Cunning bastard is that Mr Swarf, hiding his warranty details under a section called warranty. The cheek of it!
funkmasterp
Love the guy who mentioned the warranty being hidden. Cunning bastard is that Mr Swarf, hiding his warranty details under a section called warranty. The cheek of it!
I would think that given the small volume and close contact with customers, the size/weight question would be well discussed with any potential customer
Still find it surprising that the larger size frames aren't beefed up to cope with the likely steel-nostalgic middle-age MTBer who will be 6ft+ and pushing that limit
You’re aware that one P Sagan weighs over 80kg (EDIT at the last Tour)? He’s no slouch on an MTB as I recall.
he’s probably pretty smooth, too. i suspect all weight limits on bikes are for a person who is at the limit weight who rides with a lot of courage and no finesse.
I’d wager most bikes have a recommended weight limit and the manufacturers just don’t bother to mention it.
they do. i think it’s usually 120kg.
funkmasterp
I’d wager most bikes have a recommended weight limit and the manufacturers just don’t bother to mention it.
120kg "system weight" is a familiar thing on a lot of the German sites when discussing tyres/wheels/etc - for a 15kg bike, that leaves 105 for rider and kit. Having a weight limit isn't the issue, more that it's quite a bit lower than most.
Having a weight limit isn’t the issue, more that it’s quite a bit lower than most.
only an issue if you are over the limit and want the bike. it seems a lot of people objecting to the weight don’t like the bike, so not an issue for folk in this discussion.
with the number of bikes swarf can produce, i’m pretty sure that they will all find happy homes and the folk riding them won’t be on a bike that is too over-designed.
won’t be on a bike that is too over-designed.
This is a slack, long travel 29r. So i would expect it to be ridden pretty hard. With a max weight of 90kg.
A specialized epic carbon for comparison (an xc bimble machine if you will) has a max weight of 109kg.
I'd come in under the 90kg and like the look of it, but the weight cap does raise an eyebrow. Not exactly confidence inspiring. Even if i could get a warranty replacement.
But hey, the guy making these can set the bar wherever he wants. It's just a discussion...
LAT
only an issue if you are over the limit and want the bike.
Well, like most of us on this thread, I'm commenting because I'm bored at work, but 90kg is a low limit for folks 6ft and above. I think the bike is fantastic, if I was buying I'd consider it, but the limit rules me out
Honestly never knew most manufacturers advertise a limit so every day you learn something new. Most of my bikes have been second hand so it’s not something I’ve noticed.
I’d definitely buy the 130 if I had the money and was in the market for a short/mid travel full sus
It’s just a discussion…
for sure. i’m not trying to bully the conversation. i typed that with a 4 year old climbing all over me, so may have been a little brisk
comparing swarf and specialized warrantees, at a guess specialized factor in a number of failures at their weight limit and it’s all accounted for. swarf and other small builders aren’t in that position and take other precautions.
anyhoo, i love swarf bikes (and all the other small companies producing their vision of the mountain bike) and wish them success.
Why are people comparing themselves to Sagan? Surely Merkx in his later years is closer to the truth 🤣
This is a slack, long travel 29r. So i would expect it to be ridden pretty hard. With a max weight of 90kg.
A specialized epic carbon for comparison (an xc bimble machine if you will) has a max weight of 109kg.
I’d come in under the 90kg and like the look of it, but the weight cap does raise an eyebrow. Not exactly confidence inspiring.
Maybe, but then anyone who's ridden a touring or the more recent "gravel adventure" bikes will have noticed 1st hand that a lot of them ride like shit without any weight on them. They're horrible, over stiff lumps of metal. Throw on 20kg of luggage though and they suddenly come alive.
Specialized are building one Epic for everyone who'll ever buy it. XC whippets to >90kg every-other-weekend warriors. But if you can only make one or two frames a week, why not make it a bit more bespoke. A bit of flex will give more grip in the corners for a start.
Or you could build it for a 120kg weight limit, but then anyone under 90kg will be riding a bike that's half a kilo heavier with less grip.
that ^ is what i was trying to say!
bear no resemblance to one P Sagan
And how does that matter? Weight/mass is what was up for discussion
i wondered recently if a custom builder would build a steel frame with the kind of tubes that were used pre-CEN for a sprightly feeling ride.
Of course they will a custom bicycle ,doesn't have to pass CEN if it did half of the people alluding to being the special one in that niche breadbasket would be out of a job right away
Taking an interest in bike design = geek shits
Yes get a life its a bicycle
I don’t think you can compare Rob Roskopps company to either Sick! bikes or Swarf….
I didnt ,you just did that in usual singletrack fashion by twisting something to their own argument the point was hes not an engineer and sells a shit ton of bikes by clever marketing you carry on though if you missed it
Not sure what you have been offended by in this thread to refer to people as “geek shits”. You can hire a weirdo geek shit to do the weirdo geek shit but the other weirdo geek shits better not talk about it on an internet forum, stupid geek shits.
HAHAHAHA you think I'm offended because I'm not fawning like the usual suspects, And I don't need to remind you surely your response is because you are actually the one that's been offended by my post ,there there poppet.
Pics please.
Edit no pics when I posted.
They do look good.
And seem to ride well from the way Mr and Mrs Swarf go on them.
See if this works:
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Noice.
Still no Insta embed function then. FFS Singletrack.
@singlespeedstu - yep, I rode with Adrian and Sarah when I was working for Lucy and Phil in 2010, think I met/ rode with you the same season. Haven't ridden with Adrian since, but probably ought to pay a visit to the Tweed valley. Definitely a part of my decision making process when deciding to buy a 155 was knowing how Adrian rides.
@nickc - thanks. I love the aesthetic, kind of looks like a hardtail with a shock. Very understated.
@edd.
Yep we'd probably have met there in 2010.
We didn't actually meet Aid in Verbier as he didn't start until after our visit.
Have got to ride with both of them a few times now we also live up here.
That looks fantastic. How’s it ride?
I felt very comfortable on it immediately, which is obviously a good sign. In part this is because I deliberately got geometry similar, albeit with 29” wheels, to the Geometron it is replacing. On the occasions that I’ve bottomed out the suspension it seems harsher than I would expect, but I’m still playing with tokens and pressures.
Thanks edd, I’d love a 130 with a nice coil shock on the off chance Santa has an account on here
Looks like Adrian is wrapping up Swarf. Really sad news, couldn't be happier with my 155. Wishing Adrian all the best.
Saw that yesterday, a real shame. I really wanted to own one at some point, they're stunning bikes. Also wishing him all the best.
Yeah that's sad. Also really wanted to own one some day.
Yep. Saw that too. Joined the Swarf party late, bought a used Contour frame at the end of last year. Loving the bike ...
Boooooooooo