[Closed] Have skills courses become the latest de rigueur accessory?

Aww, thanks for your concern, but I'm happy enough to have achieved what I have on my own. Not a popular approach these days, obviously.

Aww, thanks for your concern, but I'm happy enough to have achieved what I have on my own.

that's the trouble these days, people are too ready to accept mediocrity...

I too have been mountain biking since the late 80's, grew up on early mountain bikes and have seen many shifts in trends etc.

It has always been a sport that has thrived on the next big thing- bula hats, purple anodising, tioga disc drives, jez avery skills, tomac skin suits, mint sauce jerseys... all relatively pointless but also harmless and ultimately only owned/used/aspired to by a small proportion of the community as a whole.

So seeing the sport move in a way that grates you confuses me in that it's so diverse and so many folk will never change, it's only a small proportion that jump on the next big thing but it gains publicity because it's something new. It's not going to change your version of the sport is it?

I'll tag along with any bandwagon that looks like it will make my riding more fun- big bars, slacker angles, dropper posts etc, and I suspect a skills course might fall in to that category.

Anything that doesnt appeal I'll leave by the wayside and possibly poke a bit of fun at, but it certainly won't change how I feel about the sport as a whole. Skills courses, like stw, will only be accessed by a very small proportion of the Mtb community so don't worry, your hobby doesnt have to change one bit.

I'm not actually worried...
It is after all, just people playing about on bikes, and it's gratingness is only my view of the 'scene', of the way it appears, which has no bearing on my riding at all.

Do tell us your competitive history TurnerGuy, it would be an opportunity for you to attempt to score points rather than engage in any sensible conversation.

assuming you don't pick up a bad habit and then compound it.

To be fair I am not buying the skill course stuff. When we started riding with the SO she got into booking one through a friend of hers. Course was with a world champ and a qualified BE instructor. Results, total loss of confidence, and 4 weeks of careful riding to get her back the way she was.

They are indeed a few basics :
look where you want to go
don't brake into the obstacle
look further ahead.
Everything else is just brain frack. I am lucky enough to ride with very good and skillful people. None of them ride the same. Who is correct then?
I do think it's the latest things to do. I can't believe everyone on here rides with crappier rider.
Plus I still don't get this improved riding things what is it?
going faster? Going smoother? Please do tell 😉

Juan, nice to see you here again!

I can tell that you haven't had as much English contact, but you still make a lot of sense.

Do tell us your competitive history TurnerGuy

I never said I competed - if I had I would probably have had some coaching though so I could fully realise my potential.

If I had more time (work in the city) I would probably have a go in my age group, but I haven't 🙁

+1 for jaun making a lot of sense.

[i]but I haven't[/i]

See... I could have a go about that, but I'm cool with the 'get skills coaching if you want' thing, but I don't want it.

I did road running when I was 15, sneaking into marathons with a fake DoB, then did cyclocross, riding for my area in the Inter-area championships and finishing in the top ten in the North-West, then did Mountain bike racing, riding in the Pro-Elite class, finishing top ten in the Diamond Back series, racing in the first Grundig World Cup race in Strathpeffer with John Tomac, Thomas Frischknecht, Barry Clarke, Ned Overend and so on, then did the 3 Peaks cyclocross, then took up Fell Running, doing the 3 Peaks fell race, then took up road racing, racing here and in Belgium and Holland, then came back to mountain biking.

I never had a coach because I couldn't afford one, and never really saw the point; the limiting factor on my performance was always the time and money I had available, not the lack of advice.

Let me reinforce the point; I don't have anything against skills training, and I'm sure some people benefit from it, but it begins to take casual, leisure activity, out with your mates mountain biking into the realms of something different.

I can tell that you haven't had as much English contact

:'( :'( :'(

I think it's time I bite the bullet and come back here. Otherwise in a few month my english will be non-existent.

Juan, your English has always been superb, even though I can tell that you haven't practiced, it is still readable and makes very good sense. Think of the standard of your English compared to the poor French that anyone on here would be embarrassed to write down...

Chapeau.

Yes but it should be better, after all I spent 4 year in southampton.

Juan, they don't speak English in Southampton... 😉

juan - Member

Ok I have stop here. What is a bad habit? Go and tell sam hill he as the bad habit of sometimes sticking is foot out in berms then. Go and tell Fabien barel he's doing to much skidding during his runs. After all looks like they are not doing it "correctly" and thye may have picked up a bad habit.

Welcome back Juan!

But some (many? most?) top end riders do take coaching. Just look at Aaron Gwin for one example, he's the fastest in the world right now. Ruaridh Cunningham probably wouldn't have been world champion without Chris Ball...

juan - I'm glad you got your gf sorted in the end and she hasn't given up.

Yeah I am glad too, mind you "buying" a new bike and a new bag and some elbow pads have help here riding.
😉

Northwind - "probably" is a good way of saying "There's no way of knowing" I reckon RC would "probably" not have been WC if Josh hadn't punctured 😉
talking of which, Josh's riding style is hugely different from Ruaridh's.. I wonder if Chris's coaching would have helped a rider like him or Danny hart (for example) as much.
Juan has a point!

Ps. who coached Gwin? (I'm talking about skills here, not fitness, professionalism or mental attitude)

But some (many? most?) top end riders do take coaching.

Alright Juan yer bugger! 😀

I took a swimming skilz course and it has made me a better swimmer. Improved technique and efficiency.

Hmmm, 'I concur' suggests that you have not lost as much as you think....

I used to be crap at concurrs until I had some coaching

xiphon, so when is this happening?

People should feel free to do what they want and the original post simply asked if the balance towards seeking coaching had gone to far - it wasn't a black and white thing. Why all the biff and aggro?

But I still don't get the Brit resistance to proper training and the idea that buying expensive kit is a panacea. Better to invest in technique than kit. Ride the bike badly and it will still be a bad ride, swing the £400 drive badly and you will still be in the trees, have a crap backhand and the £200 racket will still send the ball out!!

Who are all these overweight middle-aged IT managers on STW? Maybe I don't ever meet them because they're too busy posting here to get out and ride? Or maybe they don't exist and there's just lots of people of all builds, ages, and occupation who like riding bikes, and some of them can see a benefit in having lessons?

I think I'm fairly average in my natural ability on a bike. Some of the people I ride with have a very zen flow to their riding. Others are pretty stiff and slow once things get technical. Some attack things too aggressively and go over the bars a lot, whilst others don't commit enough. If a relatively inexperienced rider like me can see those limitations then what could a good pro do to help you ride better AND HAVE MORE FUN?!!

GW - Member

Northwind - "probably" is a good way of saying "There's no way of knowing"

Well, OK, Ruaridh says "I wouldn't have won". But he's a modest feller.

OTOH Lew thinks BASE was holding him back.

Gwin's said Tomac's been giving him useful riding advice not just professionalism/psychology- though that could just be good PR o'course. Also, IMO psychology is a riding skill and often part of skills coaching.

has anyone ever failed a skills instructors course?

Apologies in advance crikey because you're probably not gonna like me. I'm not attacking you personally, just challenging some of these remarks...

It moves us yet another step away from just riding a bike

Why does it? I had a coaching day. It was just riding a bike, but a little bit better.

it's yet more silly one-upmanship

Not one hint of that in this thread; quite the opposite.

yet another thing that makes one of the most accessible activities in the country into some kind of middle class exclusive club.

How does me having a coaching day, make biking less accessible to the kids jumping shonky bikes down the woods?

As I said before, mountain biking is moving in a direction that is beginning to grate on me, and I've been doing it since 1988.

Sepia tint.

My feeling is that people have lost the will and/or the ability to actually go out and improve by dedication and practice and sheer bloody mindedness, and are now paying someone else to tell them how to do it.

Ahha! So because it was hard for you back-in-the-day, you think it should be hard for everyone. Coaching makes competent biking more accessible to everyone - that's what you resent. So who is being elitist here?

You see, following that argument [i]reducto ad absurdum[/i], you want kids to drop out of school and learn maths from first principles.

So sorry if this annoys, but I bit the troll 🙂

jedi - Member

has anyone ever failed a skills instructors course?

That feller on Bikeradar that just hospitalised himself?

who?

Radioman
must be a troll surely!!??

Yes, thread results in debate, therefore must be a troll in the all encompassing and vague stw definition of the word.

Radioman
Havent bothered reading most of this thread

Right.

Gwin's said Tomac's been giving him useful riding advice not just professionalism/psychology- though that could just be good PR o'course. Also, IMO psychology is a riding skill and often part of skills coaching.

Big things were expected of Blenkinsop last season after "the Alien" himself took him under his wing but one way or another it didn't quite worked out ike that, Vouilloz will freely admit Blenki is a faster rider than he himself could ever have been but doesn't actually seem to understand how he does it.

The year a young Minnaar really became "next level" coincided with hooking up with the same fitness trainer Vouilloz used but Greg himself was coaching skills to others that year.

What I'm trying to say is works for each and every rider is never going to be the same. if you want to improve your riding then I wouldn't rule out anything that you feel helps (no matter how little).

TooTall

I take it from the doubters that they are either gifted athletes or have never participated in any other sport where coaching is the norm ie most other sports.

Seeing as I'm the op, and have never been on a training course I want to reply to that despite the tone. What actually got me thinking about this was that I was remembering training in various martial arts and how different it was from biking. The two things that struck me were that week in week out I was going to learn from an instructor as part of a group, and how goal orientated it was. I'd noticed a huge number of threads and replies about coaching on here too...hence the thread.

My reasons for doing it were much the same as biking, it was something I loved, I like the art of it, the fitness aspect and the adrenaline. My interest waned due to constant injuries driving me away from it in the end.

With regards to biking and coaching I've never felt anything more than curiosity towards it as my riding is quite goal driven and I've not yet encountered a problem or obstacle that I couldn't figure out on my own and I find that figuring out process interesting/rewarding. Sessioning seems to be a dirty word on here, and normally attracts some form of derision but it something I enjoy doing.

I still wouldn't rule out coaching but I'd have to feel pretty stuck/frustrated and as yet that's not the case.

GW
Big things were expected of Blenkinsop last season after "the Alien" himself took him under his wing but one way or another it didn't quite worked out ike that, Vouilloz will freely admit Blenki is a faster rider than he himself could ever have been but doesn't actually seem to understand how he does it.

Are you sure about that GW? Blenki spent most of the off season in NZ and raced most legs of their NPS so I wonder how much he worked with Nico. Where did he say Blenki was faster than he could ever have been?

GW - Member

What I'm trying to say is works for each and every rider is never going to be the same. if you want to improve your riding then I wouldn't rule out anything that you feel helps (no matter how little).

And /thread I think.

On the other hand,

GW - Member

have you checked out his eyes in interviews?.

After watching that MTBcut video he did, instead of saying "Wow great riding" I accidentally said "Doesn't Aaron Gwin have lovely eyes?". So, I'm trying to avoid a repeat of that.

Some people are lucky and are just naturals at many sports/things. Some of us have to work a whole lot harder!

I am 40 and have ridden bmx, early MTB, GSXR 600 type sports bikes then modern MTB's and I snowboard.

I wish I had attended days 4 & 5 of my original snowboarding course in Andorra. I left it 8 years before my next lesson 🙁

After nearly killing myself on my SRAD GSXR on the road, I defo benefited from my advanced tuition and trackdays at Cadwell and Croft.

I attended a basic AQR day for the wifes benefit and learned some more about cornering.

And after a weekend with Mr Oxley it turns out that pumping is used in more places than I could ever have imagined.

So for those of you who are naturally blessed, crack on. For those of you who aren't and wish to progress, I'll see at Jedi's for some airtime lessons 🙂

Are you sure about that GW? Blenki spent most of the off season in NZ and raced most legs of their NPS so I wonder how much he worked with Nico.

Where did he say Blenki was faster than he could ever have been?

After watching that MTBcut video he did, instead of saying "Wow great riding" I accidentally said "Doesn't Aaron Gwin have lovely eyes?". So, I'm trying to avoid a repeat of that.

jedi - Member
has anyone ever failed a skills instructors course?

Yes - Not everyone who has attended a course with me has been awarded a qualification. However, it is very rare. The majority of candidates achieve a Level 2 qualification after Training. I sort of blame myself, if a candidate does not attain a minimum of Level 1.

All that said, you cannot teach someone to be a top coach in 2,or 3, 4, 5 ......... days. The qualification (like any other qualification) is just a starting point. However, it does I feel, give the candidate a very good foundation to work from. I know for sure, that candidates leave the courses that I run, with a much better idea of Instructing and Group Management. Although the courses which I run are Instructor Courses, I do try and get candidates to think more like coaches, as there is a big difference in the two.

GW

I didn't say Sam and Nico moved in with each other

Well you were drawing comparisons between their relationship and that of Gwinn and Tomac who live in the same continent, in the same state even.

I have to be honest, I've scan read most of this so forgive me if this has already been said, but I don't get what the problem is.

I've been riding for years. I can handle a bike, but there's always room for improvement. If I want to have a lesson why can't I? And if I don't want a lesson and want to figure it out for myself, again why can't I?

There seems to be a lot of judging going on. Just because you choose to have a lesson it doesn't mean you're cr*p. And if you've never had a lesson and have no desire to have one it doesn't necessarily follow you're brilliant either.

Finally got to the end of the thread.

Thanks Phil and RayMazy for the info. Would of preferred Swinley as its a 5min ride from the house, so will take that in to consideration.

WRT to the courses.

For me personally, I'm a noob whose only recently got back on a bike. I'm not the fittest, or skill-full, or for that matter self motivated. I had been considering a skills course to get me a good grounding in the basics. I know there are skills I really need to improve/gain confidence in (e.g. berms). More confidence means less barriers to me getting out and riding.

Over the last few years cycling as a whole (and MTB'ing as a part) has become more popular. This makes coaching a more plausible living for people. Therefore the availability of courses rises. Leading to more people going on courses and then more people recommending courses. Rinse and repeat.

The prevalence of courses widens the accessibility/acceptability of the sport to people like weekend warriors. People who aren't "naturally gifted" and/or have the time to overcome this hours upon hours of practice. So yes people do it as a means to "short-cut" practising which drives the loop above.

Another factor influencing the [i]recommendation[/i] of courses is human nature. Human nature [i]generally[/i] is not to help others have it easier than yourself. If you spent 10,000 hours on a bike perfecting your technique then everyone else can spend that time, or if you spent £100 learning how to go round a corner then everyone else can spend that money. People are more inclined to suggest the method they used rather than describing useful ways to improve the underlying skills

Final thought, those of you who have been MTBing since the eighties may not remember what it was like back at the start learning those basic skills for the first time. Case in point I was riding with my friend, I mentioned that I don't really know how to do berms, so he took me to a pump track. After watching him go round it a few times I said that it looked scary. Later that day we where discussing when I used to trampoline. He wondered how I could possibly consider berms scary when I can do double somersaults. I think its a case of what your used to. There's skills that are so ingrained in you that you don't think about them you just know how to do, and therefore find it hard to understand how someone wouldn't know how to do them.

My 2 cents.

Shalarim

Human nature generally is not to help others have it easier than yourself

Not mine, hence my mates used to be able to rip topspin backhands past me on the tennis court courtesy of me coaching them. Also fix up friends golf problems. trouble is they never can help me 'cos they don't spend the time analysing technique, so I never get any help in return 🙁

I did say generally, which when your analysing fashion that's where you have to look.

Turner Guy - "so you would think but the correct technique for carving up flowing singletrack is not 'just riding a bike'. Maybe you would know this if you went on one of these courses..."

Going back to a point a few other people agreed with.

Bikes are for playing, if you take this attitude to a flowy trail, using a kicker there, manualling there, flow just happens.

When people start thinking flow is a specific technique and lines, they start overcomplicating things, instead of just going along with it, they start thinking too much. This kills the flow and the enjoyment. Flow is also an individual thing, flow has variety, different things will feel better to different people.

If every single person attacked the same piece of trail in the same way, videos would be boring, the sport would stop progressing. Coaching teaches a "right" way to do things, when they only correct way to attack a trail, is how that individual rider wants to attack it. IMO.

Flow ain't some technical mastery using confined, specific techniques. Flow is just pissing about on a bike.

The quote highlights you've received some bad coaching if your opinion is based on that of the coaches. It also shows you've been on a course, been taught flow, yet still haven't grasped it.

So therefore without mastering kickers, manuals, step ups, bunnyhops, etc, you are unlikey to achieve Flow....

And some people need help to learn these skills.

Coaching teaches a "right" way to do things, when they only correct way to attack a trail, is how that individual rider wants to attack it. IMO

Not entirely sure I see what you mean. I would say that a [good] coach/instructor will help facilitate a learning environment in which the individual can discover their own method of 'attacking a trail' - granted there will be some basic principles.

After all we are all physically different and learn in different ways so there isn't necessarily a right or wrong way ... just various methods that can be employed to help someone achieve their personal goals ...

You see a lot of people complaining that they can't flow down some singletrack, or attack it with any speed.

There is a definite correct technique to doing this - braking in the right place, transferring your weight in the right place, tilting your bike in the right place, etc. If you don't do these things then you end up creating braking bumps, not going as fast as you would like, not being able to get round a bend and ending up off the side of the track, etc.

The use of pedals, weight transfer, tilting the bike is different than riding a road bike, for example - so 'just ride the bike' is not applicable.

Watch any video of a good rider and you will see a lot of these techniques in use - there is a lot of commonality between good riders.

Mugboo - then we go full circle again that they are basic skills you can learn outside your house and to/from/on the trails with a little dedication and treating riding as a play attitude. Instead of kitting up, mashing the pedals/jumping in a car to the trail, then head down pedalling on the trail. Take some TV/forum time and put it into playing on your bike.

Digby - totally agreed, "I would say that a [good] coach/instructor will help facilitate a learning environment in which the individual can discover their own method of 'attacking a trail'". People need to understand this before going on these courses or even when getting tips on the internet. Also that what you're taught and recommended is open to interpretation, they aren't strict rules.

TurnerGuy - All those good riders are doing are treating the trail as a playground, doing what they think is a fun idea or a good feeling idea, then putting it into practise. The way they developed it was to mess around, trying different things until they found what they liked the feel of. The more time spent experimenting, the more variety of techniques learnt, the more preferences can be developed, hence a riders style and interpretation of the trail. When you're out riding, are you simply trying to get down as fast as possible or looking out for things to do that are fun?

Surely finding flow, keeping momentum, hitting kickers, bunnyhopping, pumping the bike, unweighting the bike at speed, drop offs, berms, moving your body etc etc etc are the most basic skills you need to cover ground off road at a reasonable pace on a bike? It doesnt take average Joe much time off road to realise this pretty quickly and put this style of riding into practice if left to their own devices...

? It doesnt take average Joe much time off road to realise this pretty quickly and put this style of riding into practice if left to their own devices..

If that was true then Jedi's blog wouldn't be full of average joes that have been riding for years but still have benefited from his tuition. It clearly isn't.

I think the average joe needs a better mindset, maybe jedi is really good at adjusting that mindset.

Again something that could be worked on with determination.

I think another problem with the average joe is that they won't session a section of trail experimenting. They will hit the section of trail the first time a certain way, then keep on doing it in the same way, sticking to what they know. When doing a skills coaching, you'll nail a section of trail well.

Maybe skills coaching is the way forward for teaching learning techniques rather than actual skills.

think another problem with the average joe is that they won't session a section of trail experimenting.

If you session a trail and make one change to see how it goes, it may be correct change but it might not work in the context of the rest of your riding errors. That is why you benefit from someone coaching you, breaking down your errors and rebuilding your riding back up towards using the correct techniques.

The coaches will positively encourage you to then go off and start sessioning in these techniques in a structured manner, until they become natural and you can start sessioning in the next technique.

It happens in loads of sports - Pete Sampras's coach made him drop his double handed backhand as he would never be one of the greats with it, countless golfers have rebuilt their swings to eliminate small flaws and then gone on to become much more successfull.

Maybe skills coaching is the way forward for teaching learning techniques rather than actual skills

There's more than a grain of truth in this I reckon. Skills coaching won't necessarily make you a riding god overnight. What it might do however is provide you with some knowledge based experience & techniques that you can put in to practice again and again until you get your own riding groove dialled.

Here's a snowsports example:

a snowboarder has a tendancy to bring their trailing arm round to the front of their body resulting in a degree of upper body/counter rotation.

In order to rectify this an instructor may get them to pretend they are squeezing a tennis ball in their hand as they are riding along so that they become 'aware' of where their trailing arm is. (sometimes known as proprioception)

This technique won't correct the bad habit overnight, however the individual will be more aware of it though and keep practising the above technique on a regularly basis until it becomes second nature and they no longer bring their arm around.

TurnerGuy - I think you're too fixed on right and wrong. It's no black and white, for flow and things.

The way i see it is in MTB there are incorrect ways of doing the basics.
I also feel the basics have a correct, single method of doing them.

Skills such as flow and trail interpretation, don't have a right or wrong, only preferences. Coaching of these skills will be biased to what the coach prefers, not what the person who is being coached prefers.

Skills such as flow and trail interpretation, don't have a right or wrong, only preferences. Coaching of these skills will be biased to what the coach prefers, not what the person who is being coached prefers.

"don't think - feel"

Bruce Lee.

I haven't been on a course however there is a training video on line where an instructor is playing around on a log drop that is on a trail I regularly ride. I watched the video, adopted some of the key lessons and made the drop properly for the first time having faffed it for months previously.

The technique I needed was already in my box of tools the skill to apply it was there too however the video gave me the ability to link the two. I can only assume that a proper one to one coaching session would help me get lots more out of my riding and I'm not so up myself to assume I can't learn from a better rider.

There is not right and wrong, but there is largely correct.

Cycling is more forgiving than many sports, hence there are all sorts of riding styles.

Other sports aren't so tolerant, and so all the top-level sportmen are very alike in their styles, or have physical attributes that let them get away with a slightly unorthodox style.

A misunderstood aspect to it is that although you can make a case for different styles and approaches, there is a good reason to have one very reliable way to get a beginner up to speed quickly and safely (for example). The CTC "system" takes something like this approach - there are certain principles built-in to it, but the way that an individual delivers the content means that each can have their own brand of instruction.

Also - don't forget that the majority of people going for skills sessions would be mystified by most of the talk in this thread - indeed, the majority of them have never heard of STW. Typically people have maybe had a go and fallen off a few times and want some structure to the way they are riding (rather than random trying things and finding out the hard way). Plus - a session is about the price of a pair of nice tyres, and way cheaper than a shiny pair of forks - so it's kind of easy to give it a try in that sense.