[Closed] Grannytrap on ben lomond is rideable

The video isn't clear and makes look whatever it is relatively easy! As I've never ridden this trail what does the 'grannytrap' involve?

I know the bit you mean - didn't ride it but it did look vaguely possible. Your vid doesn't show them riding the top (hardest) bit though. 🙂

Only hard bit at the top is making sure you get the right line. As I said the pics don't do it justice but given that there jave been posts on here before saying its impossible i thought it would be good to give the update

Is it my imagination or does the rider come straight off the built path onto the eroded ground alongside it?

Is there not still a sign asking people to keep on the path to avoid increasing erosion?

Tis true that the vid makes it look ridiculously easy - it is very steep and looked a fair way beyond me.

Must be your imagination TJ.
He clearly stays on the path, and i commend his riding for not contributing to path erosion.

BRAVO !!!!!!!

Can we see what happens in the next 10 secs of the vid ?

j_me

Huh? You being sarcastic?

The path appears to be a stepped slope off to the right as we look at the screen, he comes straight off the side

Sarcastic ? Moi ?

Yes x 10000.

I upset some people with the term "ripping down paths downhill style" as contributing to excessive erosion of built paths in an earlier post........

QED

[edit][url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/scottish-paths-riders-vs-walkers ]scottish paths riders vs walkers[/url][/edit]

looks piss easy. 😉

We rode Ben Lomond top to bottom two weeks ago; apart from the "Grannytrap". Have to agree with TJ here, has the boy not just gone round it?

Ta J_me

So actually those riders are not riding in accordance with the access code and thus we can all stand tutting at them in a very British style

I'm going to agree with TJ here:

The path appears to be a stepped slope off to the right as we look at the screen, he comes straight off the side

I know the bit you mean - didn't ride it but it did look vaguely possible. Your vid doesn't show them riding the top (hardest) bit though.

He did ride the top part but hadnt noticed the pics only start from where he did a sharp right into the finalish section

steeble - you mean where he turned off the path onto the eroded area beside it?

Well I'm impressed that someone rode any part of the grannytrap (having just learnt that's what it's called!).
It's not easy climbing up it without a bike, nevermind when you're carrying one. It is very steep and finding footholds to walk down is hard enough.

Credit where its due [tips hat]

Hey Brycey, this mean you and Stewart need to go have another crack at it? Can I come and collect the broken bones??

[recalling what they are told in The Slaughtered Lamb]
David: Keep off the moors.
Jack: And stay on the road.
[they look down to see that they have wandered off the road]
David: Whoops.

Rob, I'm still nursing my chipped (my opinion, others may say bruised) elbow from last time! Bloody great descent though, and fair play to Steeble and co for giving it a crack.

steeble - you mean where he turned off the path onto the eroded area beside it?

Would concede that he may have gone off a little but its defintely not eroded. Went a bit over the grassy bit but your more than welcome to have a crack at that line or any other on this obstacle :o)

**** is all that can be said about that.

Steeble - look at it again. The path is the steps on the right side of the vid. The rider just rides straight off the path onto the eroded ground - you know that stuff without any grass on it. Thats not the path - thats eroded area beside the path. The path is the rock steps.

Please - don't contribute to erosion unnecessarily. Riding like that is not on. REad the access code and try to keep within it please

Yeah, Jeremy, if people start riding off the edge of paths that mountain won't be there in a couple of years.

Steeble - Looks like a garishly painted sunday to me? Mikey?

I'm doing Ben Lomond if I go to Scotland this year.

Scott - if you knew the mountain you would know that path erosion is an issue. At one point here was an eroded scar many yards wide all the way up the mountain. You can see the results of the erosion in that clip and people riding like that are not riding in accordance with the access code as they are causing excessive damage.

Yeah, Jeremy, if people start riding off the edge of paths that mountain won't be there in a couple of years

No its more likely WE wont be there in a couple of years. When the landowners get pi55ed at repairing the very expensive paths, I could well see them putting up anti MTB gates or even requesting that access is denied to MTBers.

[Edit] YOU have a responsibility to ride sensibly so you don't ruin it for the riders that do![Edit]

What a bunch of losers!

You honestly think one 2.35 (bald) minion track in the dry is going to make any difference? (yes, just One! Do you think no walkers ever put a foot (or walking pole) off the track in the wet?

Riders like that do make a difference. Full stop.
No excuse for it.

The point, GW, is that it never is "just one"...

agreed alaric.......and the few that do give the many that dont a bad name.

I think a huge influx of bikers hooning down this particular section is pretty unlikely. The intention of the rider may well have been to head for the path but a dual crown fork won't turn far enough.

Anyway, as some repeatedly say, what is responsible or not needs tested in court.

Also, the reaction of walkers on the day was far more favourable than seen here.

Get a life, full stop! j_me?
No one's actually looking for an excuse.
What/where do you ride? 'coz unless the only off road riding you do is at purpose built Trail centres, you will no doubt ride on singletrack created by erosion from animals, the weather, humans etc.
Why don't you go and set up a little protest on Ben Lomond warning every walker/biker/child/sheep of the irrepairable damage they may be doing if they dare to not stand/walk/ride on a stone placed there to save the planet by someone as wonderful as yourself?

Sorry SLW - no one could argue that is responsible.

One of the principles in considering if access is reasonable is to consider what would happen if everyone did what you want to do.

Guidance on staying on the path in areas that are eroding or are at risk of erosion has been standard practice as far as I am aware for a long time

Last time I was on Ben Lomond there was actually a sign telling you to stay on the centre of the path not to go alongside it - applying to everyone.

GW - I do next to no trail centre riding. The majority of what I ride is indeed natural Singletrack or walkers paths in the Highlands of Scotland. I fully accept that I do cause erosion, I fully accept that I probably cause more erosion than an individual walker.

What I object to is people using these built paths and causing excessive erosion. This gives mountain bikers a bad name and I would hate to see any of the large landowners, parks and trusts take a negative stance on mountainbikers due to people damaging made paths unnecessarily.

By all means ride these paths, but do it in a responsible manner.

What a total ****ing hypocrite!!

What a total **** hypocrite!!

me ?

Who the **** else? 🙄

At what point am I being hypocritical ?

The majority of what I ride is indeed natural Singletrack or walkers paths in the Highlands of Scotland. I fully accept that I do cause erosion, I fully accept that I probably cause more erosion than an individual walker.

What I object to is people using these built paths and causing excessive erosion.

so what gives you the authority to decide what is acceptable erosion and what is excessive erosion? and where exactly does the imaginary line between the two fall?
oh, and what punishment do you empose on yourself if you make a mistake and cross that line? you'd probably just move it to suit yourself wouldn't you? 🙄

1. I accept I cause erosion
2. When I am riding i try to minimise this.
3. If there is a path built there to reduce erosion I use it.
4. If I cant ride it, or the ground is soft, I carry.

I see nothing hypocritical in that, and I don't think anything I have said goes against this.
This isn't really about me its about the video clip at the top of the thread, where the rider clearly does not use a path put in place to help reduce erosion. So a fail in points 2,3 and 4 above.

Yeah, Jeremy, if people start riding off the edge of paths that mountain won't be there in a couple of years.

I'm doing Ben Lomond if I go to Scotland this year.

Please do us all a favour and take your childish attitude somewhere else and leave Scotland for the grown ups who understand "responsible access".

GW - Member

so what gives you the authority to decide what is acceptable erosion and what is excessive erosion? and where exactly does the imaginary line between the two fall?

Its a judgement call and one everyone will make differently - but we can all follow the advice in the code

However riding off a path onto eroded ground along side it is clearly not responsible / acceptable. Not in a grey area but well over the edge especially on a path under such pressure as Ben Lomond

Its a judgement call and one everyone will make differently

I agree with this bit TJ ^^ but you can't seriously tell me you haven't (intentionally or unintentionally) ventured off paths more than a few times yourself? - talking of judgement calls, if it's as technical as others are saying it is, the line everyone's getting there knickers in a twist about being ridden in the vid looked to be the safest run out from it.

Indeed I have usually accidentally. if there is a path I always try to ride on the centre of it. However that vid was a deliberate ride off the edge not accidental. The alternative might be walking down the path if it really is not rideable

[b]walk down[/b]?
Aye, that'd be well worth 3hours pushing up, eh? 😕

If you can't ride on the trail then you should walk down it. You should not ride off the side of the trail deliberately.

1) That's not riding it. It's riding around it like a mincer.

2) You're causing unnecessary erosion.

3) TJ is actually spot on here. Not just to do with wearing away some precious bit of nature, but face it, riding off the side of a perfectly nice built path is gonna wreck the trail for people who actually have the skill to ride that section.

4) If the dual crown forks won't let you make a turn on a path you've decided to ride down, fit SC forks or ride another trail.

Aye, that'd be well worth 3hours pushing up, eh

Must have been able to ride some of it though, not all of the path is that hard ?
There's no shame in admitting a stretch is too technical/damaged/wet and walking the odd 10 metres, or is there?

dont really know what the dude was going on about on your flickr vid about wrong for riding that bit - however - well done looks fab - my hubby has doneben lomond a couple times and riden all aparently v tricky !

TJ - give over. I doubt he had much choice where exactly to go given how steep/tricky it is there - and how do you think that bit got eroded? I doubt it was mountain bikers.

Does [i]every[/i] thread have to turn into a silly argument these days?

Grum. Sorry but he did have a choice and this is exactly the sort of behaviour we should be questioning. In Scotland access is a qualified right that comes with duties - and one of the duties is not to cause unnecessary erosion. Riding off the sides of the paths clearly is against both the spirit and the letter of the code.

I know that mountain well - erosion is a real issue on it.

I still don't understand why the OP is suggesting the unrideable has been ridden - the rider clearly avoided the tricky steps and just used a chicken run.

(agree with the above about erosion, too)

Kinda wishing i hadnt started this thread now. Was intended to show there was a way down/ around/ whatever the granny trap. Bike may have gone off the man madepath bit think any possible erosion was at a minimum given the damage caused by walkers, weather and animals! I'm going to go back and cement the bits we rode on to stop and further damage and ill plant a tree to adjust for any co2 I breathe out

I still don't understand why the OP is suggesting the unrideable has been ridden - the rider clearly avoided the tricky steps and just used a chicken run.

Although the vid doesn't really show the hardest bit - I'd like to see you ride the 'chicken run'. I don't claim to be an amazing technical rider but I have ridden some fairly steep techy stuff here and in the Alps and it's beyond what I would think of doing. Adstick off here is a pretty handy rider and was on his SX Trail and he didn't do it either.

Video makes it look stupidly easy.

that's fair enough grum it might have been very tricky to even do that but surely to 'clean' the section the steps would have to be ridden as well?

How hard it is is irrelevant - he rode off the path deliberately which is a clear breach of the access code. Nothing else matters.

that path was built to combat erosion. By going off the side of it you are undermining it and it will collapse sooner than if peope stick to the path

To say "well others have done so" does not make it right. Two wrongs do not make a right!

wwaswas - I dunno about 'cleaning' it but all he said was it's rideable.

How hard it is is irrelevant - he rode off the path deliberately which is a clear breach of the access code. Nothing else matters.

How do you know he did it deliberately? I don't know about you but riding very steep tricky stuff I often can't pick exactly where I'm going to go. Why have you gone off paths 'usually' accidentally?

Is it because you weren't riding in proper control ON A PUBLIC PATH? [b]HOW VERY DARE YOU!!!?[/b] Riding out of control is also more likely to cause skidding and further erosion - probably another breach of the access code eh? 🙄

What he did is probably not ideal but please try and develop a teensy little sense of perspective.

What he did is probably not ideal but please try and develop a teensy little sense of perspective.

... and don't post about it on t'interweb 🙄

Come off it grum - its clearly deliberate and the poster originally attempted to defend it as being OK

Its bad practice and should be challenged Its up to us to do this otherwise it people think its acceptable to ride like that.

I would challenge anyone I saw walking or riding doing that.

In 40 years since I first climbed Lomond I hae seen it erode, a armoured path be put n in places and the path then be eroded away

there use to be a sign reminding yo to keep to teh path to prevent erosion..

your right it was deliberate. We intentionally went out to try and inflame the moral high ground in alot of replies on here. Guess we shouldnt have had that who can get the longest skid contest all the way down!

I would challenge anyone I saw walking or riding doing that.

At the risk of repeating myself.....

Did you challenge yourself when you did it (apparently several times and only 'usually accidentally')? And surely you were out of control if you did it accidentally?

Bit hypocritical no? Something you are normally very keen to point out in other people.

Grum - its not the same thing. One is a deliberate action and the other is inadvertent. No hypocrisy involved.

If I were you I'd stop digging. those of us who respect the mountains and the access code are obvious on this thread. With rights come responsibilities.

Grum - its not the same thing. One is a deliberate action and the other is inadvertent.

Has exactly the same end result though doesn't it. In fact you could argue doing it deliberately is less likely to cause erosion.

And you didn't answer the point about being out of control which I believe violates the access code.

Have you ever read the access code?

Yes

Use common sense to avoid accidents—show care and consideration and make sure your speed doesn’t alarm or endanger others

If you have gone off the path (many times) (mostly) accidentally surely you were going too fast for your abilities.

If going off-trail, especially in winter, avoid wet, boggy or soft ground and don’t churn up the surface

Didn't see any wet, boggy or soft ground there - or churning up the surface.

Also

It is advisable to wear a helmet at all times for your own protection

OMG!!!!!!!!!

Phew! It's getting hot in here with pent up access rage. Fair play to anyone for getting round the sharp right hander. I've tried it several times and once managed that far while packing my pants but couldn't get a line down the steps. I can't share the outrage about going off the steps that others have posted. My only disappointment is that I was expecting to see the steps ridden down too. It's seriously nasty looking when you are above it. I wonder will the world end because of this video? Er, no! Having ridden the route several times, I rather suspect that walkers who witnessed it would be more gob smacked than angry and more likely to applaud than criticize. I used to sit on an Access Forum and to be honest, this would not be an issue of concern to us.

Cheers

Sanny

Ps get a better video recording device for next time!

well its a very odd interpretation that says deliberately riding on eroded ground is Ok but inadvertently running off the path is not ok

really - stop digging. You are attempting to defend the indefensible

[b]Help protect trails from erosion[/b]; don’t skid, especially on loose
surfaces and try not to lock your wheels when going downhill.
Remember, [b]you may not be the only cyclists using the route—
consider the cumulative effect[/b]

I'm with TJ: Access code or not, I think we should all be responsible enough to stick to marked trails otherwise we might all end up confined to trail centres forever and ever...

If we are seen to ruin the great outdoors we'll soon be told we're not welcome.

If we are [s]seen[/s] [i]perceived[/i] to ruin the great outdoors we'll soon be told we're not welcome.

nail on the head

Yep well said Mintman

[img] [/img]

You are attempting to defend the indefensible

Get a grip.

We're talking about cycling, not rape or genocide.

well its a very odd interpretation that says deliberately riding on eroded ground is Ok but inadvertently running off the path is not ok

Not really seeing as it is has exactly the same effect on erosion - the ground doesn't care what your intentions were does it. But one shows a lack of control, the other doesn't.

From the bit you quoted, all it says is 'don't skid or lock your wheels', which I don't think the guy in the video was. You probably were when you accidentally went off the path.

If going off-trail, especially in winter, avoid wet, boggy or soft ground and don’t churn up the surface

So why does the government's own advice refer to going off-trail on a bike, if you are NEVER meant to do that?

Grum - stop showing your ignorance. Its a clear breach of mountain etiquette and the access code and you should know it. What anyone else does inadvertently or not is irrelevant

If you don't understand the difference between deliberate and inadvertent you are even stupider than I thought Look at the number of folk who agree with me.

Its a great shame you don't respect the hills nor understand the ethos.

ditch_jockey - Member
Yeah, Jeremy, if people start riding off the edge of paths that mountain won't be there in a couple of years.
I'm doing Ben Lomond if I go to Scotland this year.

Please do us all a favour and take your childish attitude somewhere else and leave Scotland for the grown ups who understand "responsible access".

Jump off your high horse and take a rest, Mildred. Where have I said I was going to blatantly ignore any pathways? My point was in reference to the predictable gathering of hypocritical, sanctimonious old maids who are almost as excited as they would be if someone received a speeding fine on here.

That section's probably well out of my skill level, but I'm not jealous enough to criticise the rider or poster, because that would just be pathetic.

Nothing to do with jealousy. Everything to do with showing respect for the mountains and the access code.

TJ - why don't you actually answer my questions instead of hysterically bleating?

Lots of people agree with David Cameron - does that mean he is right too?

Again, why does the government give advice about going off-trail specifically if it's such a no-no? And what about where it advises wearing a helmet at all times?

You are confusing your own petty prejudices with the access code and 'respect for the mountains' - I have plenty of respect for the mountains and often pick up bits of litter etc. I also generally (but not always) stick to paths and man-made steps - same as you apparently.

Get a ****ing grip. If you really care that much about erosion never ride your bike or go for a walk ever again.

Partly to do with jealousy. Mostly to do with showing my prejudices and my own made up version of the access code.

Fixed.

Grum I have answered everything you asked where it made any sort of sense.

You don't understand the issues - its a pity but there it is.

It is not acceptable to ride off the side of paths deliberately and if you had any understanding or respect you would know that instead of trying to defend the OP. You clearly don't understand what the code is.

The helmet wearing thing you quote is not a part of it. Teh code is not Government advice.

its not the biggest environmental crime by a long way. However its bad practice and should not go unchallenged

You childish attitude does you no favours.

Just to clear a few points up.

The intended target was the steps, he missed them.

All the hard braking and turning was done on solid natural rock and the off path section was just used as an unintentional run out WITH NO SKIDDING!

Much litter was removed from the hill.

The alternative line is a 10 foot huck to rock garden then flat turn. Which would make a mess of the path and the rider.

I shall also plant a tree!

When the NTS is short on funds and wants to save money on footpath repairs it wouldn't surprise me if they restrict access to MTBs citing the fact that They deliberately disregard the access code.
This would be unfortunate for the vast majority of bikers who use these footpaths responsibly.

Well, since we now know he didn't mean to ride that bit anyway, might well be time for both sides to shut up really. Though does make you wonder why the video was posted in the first place, "Look it's perfectly rideable except where it isn't".

*has a quiet s**** at northwind*