[Closed] Gearbox drive trains, whatever next.

No but it looks to have zero chance of survival for one of my failed "bunny hop over log/rock" skills

Zerode started off making this alfine based DH frame:

[img] [/img]

Looks like they're chasing the #enduro market now then, with a pinion box.
Not that bothered by it TBH, shame...

Lovely, had a wee spin at ard Rock, nice to ride too.

It's a pinion p18 gear box, been around a while now and loads of people are doing frames with them.

http://co-motion.com/bikes/divide-pinion

[img] [/img]

Before the zerode DH bike, GT did a similar nexus based one, the IT1, but it wasn't anywhere near as well executed. Brilliant and really shit in different ways, that was in 05.

I like the look of the new one, probably not a good idea for me to demo one...

I would say the original Zerode DH bike had more in common with a Lahar M9:

[img] [/img]

Both high pivot, with a epicyclic hub (Rohloff on the Lahar) buried in the frame, both used a Rocker at the BB to lever the shock pulled by the chainstay. Unfortunately Lahar was a business disaster...

Would love to build an expedition fatbike with a Pinion as it puts the extra weight in the right place - I met a Swedish guy with one in Finland, awesome piece of kit.

I'm finishing off a Pinion touring bike build today.

18 Bikes in Hope have a hardtail pinion bike, it is one of their custom builds. I took it out for a demo and I liked it. It does carry some extra weight but it is in the best possible place and the advantage of no derailleur to get gunged up with mud or damaged is very appealing. I think there is a gearbox in my future 🙂

That Zerode could be great.

But like all of them, it's let down by the hilariously sh*t Pinion grip shift. One day they might actually listen to all the complaints & try to make it work with a normal shifter.

Well I never, I like the idea of it, along ramble/cx set up sounds wonderful. To ride, how is the shifting feel? Does it react rapidly to change?

You have to back off the power a little to change gear, though that's not really any different to a conventional derailleur tbh, but I liked the idea of being able to select any gear whilst stationary.

I got on fine with the shifting but then I don't mind gripshift. My only small gripe is that the shift between gears isn't entirely consistent as there are certain ratios that are slightly harder to shift between. I think you need some time using the pinion before you start to take advantage of the ability to shift as many gears as you like without pedaling. I have spent so many years using derailleurs that I do certain things without thinking. If I'd spent as many years using a pinion gearbox and jumped on a derailleur bike I think I'd have far more trouble adjusting

that lahar is lovely. such a great bike - such a disaster of a company...

i'd love a gearbox - i quite like gripshift so i'm ok with that. i appreciate its not for everyone though.

I always thought the Zerode prototype was more interesting with its high pivot

[img] [/img]

Sure I remember a pinion geared bike being made for Steve Peat some years back, possibly one of those mentioned above. Looks like the idea has come round again.

Anyone know the uk price yet on that new Zerode?
Will be interesting to see how the price compares to the equivalent Nicolai.

UK RRP
frame + shock + Pinion drivetrain*
Zerode Taniwha [Fox Factory Float X] £4,500

Upgrade to a BOS Kirk 2 3-Way £100
Upgrade to a FOX Factory Float X2 £200

Complete bike w/ Pike RCT3 160mm
Zerode Taniwha [FOX Factory Float X] £5,500

Ebikes discussion end

What?

Read the topic title - what next

Answer

Ebikes, In the first 6 months of any year more will probably be sold than gearbox bikes.

The E bike has a gearbox.

I'd like to think the development of ebikes pushes gearbox development for normal bikes but its not happening yet.

ebike development would probably be in a different direction, fewer ratios and less concern about weight. Pinion have just announced a lighter mag gearbox but no news on a new shifter

jambalaya - Member

No but it looks to have zero chance of survival for one of my failed "bunny hop over log/rock" skills

Assuming it's the same as a good old Roox Roller Coaster, it'll be spring loaded so it can be knocked out of the way

I have done 30km on a Pinion Gerboxed Geometron, so in internet terms I'm clearly massively qualified to give my opinions...

1) I didn't hate the gripshift as much as I thought I would.
2) The lower unsprung mass makes the suspension super plush and active.
3) You have to back off more than a little to change gear, this was the biggest issue I had with it. It would be fine for whinch and plummet rides but on contoury frequent shifty type of riding, it was a bit of a pain to say the least.

It has to be spring loaded at the jockey wheels Id have thought otherwise bottoming out the rear end would put un-Godly stresses on things

If it wasn't sprung then how would it take up chain growth?

A mate had a Nicolai Nucleon ST, spent a week riding it in Whistler when I was there in 2007, so f'in heavy (52lbs) yet so balanced in the air as all of the weight was in the middle.

It was a pretty thing: 😆

[img] [/img]

Got a lot of random people come up asking for a photo with it too?!

Been waiting for something with a gearbox and belt drive for a few years now, surprised it's now only starting to take off tbh.

The whole gearbox thing is very interesting. The idea of maintenance free gears sounds great to me and I hate the grinding grating noise you get riding in winter muck with a traditional gears, albeit 1x has made things a lot better. Potentially going down the Nicolai route at the moment and the idea of a gearbox is very tempting but it's a big cost hurdle when I would typically spec XT level gears.

Hmmm. The more I see of gearbox bikes, whether in the hub or the frame I think I should convert my Inbred to running an Alfine rear hub & stick a rigid fork on it for 'maintenance free' cycling. Although I suspect the Alfine wouldn't be that 'maintenance free' at all.....

If you don't think you need 18 gears have a look at the 9 speed, I'm under the impression that its quite a but cheaper.

My 8 speed Alfine gets serviced at a shop 1 ever 2 years, I could quite easily leave it longer.

thepodge - Member

My 8 speed Alfine gets serviced at a shop 1 ever 2 years

Interesting. Is that used on road or off road??

Mainly off road, the reason I got it was because I didn't want to do any cleaning or maintenence

I like the look of tis, the whole thing looks fun to me

[img] [/img]

Here's my old IT1, a svelte 48lbs...

[img] [/img]

I grew to hate my alfine- rubber gears, slowed down rolling downhill, changed to oil bath which leaked onto the rotor etc.

I used my Alfine offroad commuting (so dunk I mud twice a day and never cleaned) for a year and while it was still clean in the geary-bits, the main hub bearing bearings which everything runs on went all rusty and developed play. So now it has play in the sprocket carrier so the chain jumps off and it sounds like a steamroller rumbling down the road. Lots more drag now too. Still, it lasted better than the conventional drivetrain I had before, not sure it worked out value wise though.

ebike development would probably be in a different direction, fewer ratios and less concern about weight. Pinion have just announced a lighter mag gearbox but no news on a new shifter

I can see your point but the majority of gearboxes appear to be targeted towards commuter type bikes if you look at the press releases from euro bike, Sure there's the odd full springer and a handful of people who swoon over them but honestly in 20 years it's gone nowhere,

Now given the choice of pedal or be swiftly varied along by motor for the less money 4.5k for a frame or en entire E bike?

Problem with gearboxes is that derailleur gears are really bloody good nowadays, and they will always be more efficient. There's no good reason for introducing drag into a bike's drivetrain, inless you can come up with a massive weight or performance benefit, and gearboxes currently do the opposite.

honourablegeorge, I agree, the weight in the middle being sprung makes sense. But, in removing the cassette etc. you still have to replace it with the SS drive components for the gearbox anyhow. Given modern traditional mechs/cassettes are light, I wonder what the net weight loss is of the unsprung rear wheel.

& regards the argument they make about cutting back on forces pushing the rear wheels backwards and affecting the shock performance, get a hardtail! *ducks and runs*

Still looks fun though!

Problem with gearboxes is that derailleur gears are really bloody good nowadays

Problem with gearboxes is that derailleur gears are really bloody good nowadays, and they will always be more efficient.

A derailleur system, when it's brand new and lubricated in perfect conditions, will be about 1% more efficient than a Rohloff. Difference is, the Rohloff will still be as efficient when it's covered in mud, the derailleur's efficiency goes down quite a bit with wear and muck.

Derailleur efficiency is also an average - it caries a lot across the cassette. the 11t cog wastes about 3x as much energy as the 34t.

I would love to see an independent test of a Rohloff, my experience was it was efficient under full load pedalling hard, but had extra drag compared to normal setup when just pedalling lightly. It also felt like pedalling through treacle all the time but that's just feel not efficiency.

The gripshifr puts me off. Could they not have a cable operated trigger on each side of rhe bar to pull the gearbox in opposite directions?

There is a left hand right hand Rohloff but it looks rubbish.

I've seen someone used a sprung carrier on the down tube to utilise a more traditional shifter.

Nicolai keep saying the'll develop one.

I'm surprised one hasn't been done and or an electric shifter.

Loads of companies have had a go at producing trigger shifters for Rohloff and Pinion, they never seem to make it to market. Not as simple as you might think.

I don't think its simple, I do think that the number they would have to make is so small that no one is really interested

The gripshifr puts me off. Could they not have a cable operated trigger on each side of rhe bar to pull the gearbox in opposite directions?

Ah, now there's me thinking it was an automatic! i.e. you pedal and it shifts up, stop/ease off/strain and it shifts down etc. duh

Ah, now there's me thinking it was an automatic! i.e. you pedal and it shifts up, stop/ease off/strain and it shifts down etc. duh

A mate thought that about XTR di2 😆 got back from a test ride (of not insignificant length) and pronounced it shit as it didn't change gear by itself the whole way round...

There is a system that does that NuVinchi I think

Personally can't wait for gearboxes to be mainstream. I hate derailleur systems and as we get wider and wider cassettes they are just getting worse.

A derailleur system, when it's brand new and lubricated in perfect conditions, will be about 1% more efficient than a Rohloff. Difference is, the Rohloff will still be as efficient when it's covered in mud, the derailleur's efficiency goes down quite a bit with wear and muck.

my experience was it was efficient under full load pedalling hard, but had extra drag compared to normal setup when just pedalling lightly. It also felt like pedalling through treacle all the time but that's just feel not efficiency

I've ridden Rohloff's for over 10 years. My main MTB has been Pinion for the last 3 and I've got a belt drive Alfine 8 commuter. Of those the Pinion by far has the least sensation of inefficiency/drag. On the Rohloff and definitely on the Alfine there is sometimes a feeling of drag (though it's another matter whether that translates into a loss of power that's material in real world use.

Pinion rides really well. I don't have any problem with the Gripshift. It will cope with being plowed into the odd log (the tensioner just moves backwards out of the way).

alfines and rohollfs are really easy to service. Alfine is just take the cluster out and dump it in a oil bath. I can do one in under 1/2 hr including the time for the excess oil to drain away. drive trains last many times longer. Nor do you get dropped/ flappy chains or missed shifts. I'll exchange that for (a perception of?) drag anyday. The only thing that annoys is the Rohloff shift is pretty slow and clunky.

I believe epicyclics are inherently more draggy and inefficient, chain drives are amongst the most efficient methods of transmission, of course once you slim the components down, start deliberately jumping between sprockets, putting the chain at various angles and introduce grime and moisture then of course durability is bound to suffer, chains and mechs still aren't bad at all IMO.

As mentioned above the old Honda RN01 "mech in a box" concept probably had far more mileage in it than was ever pursued, and of course patents and IP are in place to ward off anyone looking to unearth that idea now. I could certainly see the appeal of a Di2 operated 11+speed enclosed derailleur type gearbox for modern trail bikes...

There were quite a few ideas from the mid-late 90's/Early 00's that it would be interesting to see developed further today.

SRAM do an automatic hub gear for town bikes IIRC... But it's only 3 speed, and made by SRAM 😕 So...

Considering the vpp in protection has expired I'd imagine the Honda stuff will expire soon too.

The Cinq5 trigger shifters for Rohloff are very good - I use them all the time.

I'd imagine the Honda stuff will expire soon too.

Afaik Honda released all claim on the patents , it wasnt the program they were running that was important

MTB is finally shedding all the throwbacks from road bike but the rear derailleur still clings on.

Simple, sure. Cheap, that too but it is pretty archaic and hangs in the path of many hard and sharp things, just waiting to give it a kicking.

As other have said, with the onset of wide range cassettes, the need for gearboxes (electronically assisted not that two cable grip shift nonsense) is becoming more of a reality. Companies just need to sort some of the weight and size issues. I for one am lining up when Shimano or SRAM finally get their act together.

But I am surprised that Shimano, a company who also known for their geared fishing reals and hubs, haven't figured something out already.

saw a road bike near London Bridge the other day with what looked like one of these gearboxes.

@thepodge

[url= https://google.com/patents/EP1630091A1?cl=ru ]interesting[/url]

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Seems Honda may have let some of the patents lapse...

The Honda program was spread across more than one platform

I have two types of gearbox sat here in the works one is based on that information. and one is wireless

Are they likely to become consumers projects?

@mickmcd

Go on show us some pictures?

I'm fairly sure I saw something on his instagram ages back.

cookeaa - Member
I believe epicyclics are inherently more draggy and inefficient...

The answer is to grow a set of legs and either singlespeed or get a Sturmey-Archer 3 speed which wastes very little energy. Low gear for hills, middle gear (direct and efficient) for normal, and top gears for downhill/tailwinds. Sorted. 🙂

I also have an Alfine and a Rohloff. I haven't used the Rohloff for several years now because I didn't like the feel of it - it felt like I was grinding coffee in the lower gears. The Alfine is lovely. Mainly used for rides that include a mix of road and offroad. I grew up on 3 speeds so I don't find the method of changing gear unusual.

A centrally mounted gearbox is an idea whose time has come IMO. The problem with adoption is you can't do a retro fit, you need to buy the whole bike.

It has always surprised me no one has come up with a way to enclose a derailleur system. Fully enclosed in an oil bath, it would be very difficult to find anything better.

I for one am lining up when Shimano or SRAM finally get their act together.

But I am surprised that Shimano, a company who also known for their geared fishing reals and hubs, haven't figured something out already.

Well I have bought one Rohloff in my life, 10 years ago now, I probably won't ever buy another one, or what I should say is I probably won't ever need to buy another one. I'm sure that Shimano could come up with a gearbox that had the same reliability and lifespan but I'm not sure they or many others in the bike industry want to get into making expensive things that last. Such things in the end benefit the consumers pocket not their own. It might work as a business model for small companies like Rohloff but for the big boys this is an industry reliant on ever changing standards and obsolescence.

Alfines go on for ever if serviced properly as well.

As an aside if you find an alfine draggy take the cluster out and degrease it then give it a bath in ATF - they run with less drag then but it does need redoing ever year or so.

Alfines go on for ever if serviced properly as well.

The 8 speed may be reliable but if you look just on this site regarding the 11 speed they don't have the same reliability.

Pinion touring bike picked up today:

[url= https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8632/28634279210_0b458ff034_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8632/28634279210_0b458ff034_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

😉

Is that bike for some kind of giant or do you sell head tubes by the yard 🙂

Really nice bike that (apart from gate sizing). Well done Ben!

Looks like modern technology meeting classic design seamlessly, lovely!

A centrally mounted gearbox is an idea whose time has come IMO. The problem with adoption is you can't do a retro fit, you need to buy the whole bike.

And the size and shape of the box restricts suspension design.

Really though I think the issue is weight - I'm pretty sure Pinion adds about 1500g over a 1x11 set up. That's not such an issue for me at 80kg but more so for lighter riders. My experience suggests that Pinion have got the longevity sorted so lifetime cost is going to be lower than a conventional setup.

It has always surprised me no one has come up with a way to enclose a derailleur system. Fully enclosed in an oil bath, it would be very difficult to find anything better.

The advantage of Pinion style spur gears is longevity and reliability - I'm not convinced you'd retain that with a mech in a box.

So, why not have a CVT style gearbox system with two opposing tapered rollers with one being the input the other the output and some kind of flexible rubber belt joining the two?

There is a CVT hub available - the nuvinci. Can even be had with electronic shifting.

The nuvinci hubs are excellent on city, commuting, cargo bikes but are heavier than Rohloff

The cvt in operation is excellent stepless, shifts under load and would be excellent if available in a gearbox

Gearboxes dangerous 😉 look what happened to this guy.

So, why not have a CVT style gearbox system with two opposing tapered rollers with one being the input the other the output and some kind of flexible rubber belt joining the two

The problem with most CVTs is that they're not very good at low speed, high torque applications - and rubber belts are draggy. The NuVinci does it with ball rollers and a special non-linear transmission fluid.

That was the Honda box wasn't it? You've still got the box, the oil bath and the additional gubbins to get the drive out of the box so you're still adding weight

The second one - the first one was an ingenious system using reciprocating linkages which was an absolute nightmare to make.

Is that bike for some kind of giant or do you sell head tubes by the yard

Thanks - this customer wanted a more classic geometry, with a very slack seat tube and higher bars.