Swinley is a strange one. If you bimble round slowly it's boring, but fine on almost any bike. Once saw a guy riding a rather old 3 speed folding bike with racks. Crank it up to a decent pace and the constant up, down and changes in direction start to highlight performance issues you don't think about elsewhere. In that situation it can be quite hard work on a hardtail. Best off with a light, fast xc suspension bike there imo.
Of course none of this is relevant, it's usually impossible to ride Swinley fast because you're constantly being held up 🙄
Best off with a light, fast xc suspension bike there imo.
I'm surprised Bird didn't go down this route. Something like a Giant Anthem, but with the geometry they've put on the Aeris/AM9/Aether.
Best off with a light, fast xc suspension bike there imo
Agree. Swinley of old was great fun on a hardtail, but the purpose built bone shaking ginge would be awful at speed. Perfectly rideable but I wouldn't think it would be that enjoyable. My 10 year old 120mm Yeti ASR-5 still feels like the best option to me (partly because I can no longer afford to buy something shiny and new!)
it’s usually impossible to ride Swinley fast because you’re constantly being held up
Disagree. Rarely get held up there unless it's a weekend. I usually ride Monday evenings with friends, in from Crowthorne, purple, then home again. This week we saw two other riders!
No flat pedals, I find it better to try and jump though the rock garden than plough through it though.
respect ... I sometimes feel I don't send something that would be way easier and safer sent. I have no issue sending it on the FS but on the HT I guess I hold back which is obviously stupid but ??
Swinley of old was great fun on a hardtail, but the purpose built bone shaking ginge would be awful at speed. Perfectly rideable but I wouldn’t think it would be that enjoyable.
I don't think the bike has anything to do with it.... Swinley is just designed to be a fun-free place. I just go because I'm too lazy to cycle to Peaslake.. It's increasingly hard to tell the difference between the canal towpath and Swinley.
DezB
For the OP to decide who’s opinion is right or wrong (joking! I mean who he agrees with) surely obvious thing is to get a full sus demo or loaner to take on a ride.
I see what you're saying but not sure it works like that.
At least for me I feel there was a honeymoon period before I felt "where did the fun go?"
It’s increasingly hard to tell the difference between the canal towpath and Swinley.
There’s more elevation on a canal path.
I see what you’re saying but not sure it works like that.
I know one thing - it'd be a lot more useful than asking other people!
DezB
I know one thing – it’d be a lot more useful than asking other people!
A bit of both ???
I'd say at least try and be objective during (the honeymoon period of) a trial.
Getting a load of different opinions to test might help that trial be more objective.
Yeah yeah. My own experience is that riding something tells me a lot , asking on here gets such a variety of differing opinions (and people arguing about sod all), it just becomes confusing noise... so riding something is (as I said) a lot more useful.
Thats all. But if you have to be right, then you are.
But if you have to be right, then you are.
I *think* what I'm saying is I've been wrong, specifically over the FS/HT.
I'm completely with you about trialling but I think getting all the things to think about in that trial is specifically relevant to the FS/HT.
The positives of the FS come across very quickly from experience but the negatives took me longer.
At my (our) age and my fitness I'm glad I don't have to choose ... because for me the biggest downside of the HT is after a few days consecutive riding I definitely feel it. There is also the extra cost of maintenance... which may or may not be important for the OP.
The compromises are almost exactly not what I expected.
I'm not fussed if the HT climbs a firetrail 15 secs faster ... which it might in some places but I don't care.
(I don't think the OP does but perhaps they do)
Getting shaken off pedals unclipped is real... there are definately places I can pedal faster on the FS and I guess that is something personal to everyone. It bothered me more than I thought it would for a while .
I'd also say another place where I was wrong .. like Jimmy748 I expected a big difference on DH ... and there is very little in it. You'd need a stop watch type difference. I totally didn't expect that. Mostly it's the size of my cohones not the bike.
If anything Jimmy's vid on Devils Dyke illustrates this ... I lack the cohones to full send the rock gardens .. and the drop/step down at the end was scarier on the HT. (Quite honestly wouldn't want to case that on the HT but that just means don't touch the brakes)...
So erm.. I was wrong on almost everything from what I expected when I went back to the HT and I was also "wrong" about the feel of a FS in many ways when I went that way.
For a short time I was totally smitten with the move to FS ... the ability to smash through stuff seemed ace for a few weeks but then became boring. I remember the exact moment (a few years ago now) the disappointment set in on a tiny 2-3' drop that had always been fun but I couldn't actually feel the back wheel leaving the ground... I knew it had but it felt like rolling off a kerb..
I still use the FS .. I'd not even think about the triples at Dyfi on the HT and Devils (at Okeford) feels safer (but I know its in my head) and a few of the braking bumps at Revs are just nasty of a HT.. but those are probably at the more extreme end (plus i'm well into my 50's and of mediocre skill at best) ..
I used the FS for an afternoon the other week at Rogate because it was the 2nd session in 3 days and my thighs took a beating (due to my crap riding ability) .. then to let Ollie do use the HT. (but in truth I was glad on the break to my thighs having cased triple R to death)
There’s more elevation on a canal path.
Possibly actually true with the locks... It's still nice to ride round the official loop just from a being in the Forest POV but it's hard to class that as "fun".
I'm lucky enough to have a Fuse (as a 29er, built from parts and a second hand frame to replace a Stache) as well as a Kona Process 111 - which is pretty ideal for where I am in the Surrey Hills. I've always had hardtails and go through long stretches where I ride one bike or the other exclusively - then switch back and realised what I missed.
The Fuse is a cracking bike; tinker with tyre pressure and enjoy what you have, then if you've budget and room for an FS as well, consider having one of each. You'll have a lot of fun with a hardtail, and it's not a race last time I checked. At the moment it may also be tougher finding an FS bike you can actually buy, too.
I used to be of the opinion that it was good to learn skills on a hardtail before buying a FS bike, but raising two kids who have also got into riding has changed my perspective on this.
Quite a long way of saying to OP: N+1
I used to be of the opinion that it was good to learn skills on a hardtail before buying a FS bike, but raising two kids who have also got into riding has changed my perspective on this.
Interested to understand what changed your perspective. I have two sons, 10 and 11, both of whom are starting to take more interest in riding off road (as in, they ask to go rather than me asking them) and I'm about to move them from 24" rigid bikes to 27.5 hardtails. I don't think they will need full suss for a few years yet but interested in others' experience.
Really depends what they ride ... ideally one of each but a bit late now.
I waited too long to get the lad on a HT at 10 by which time he had the wrong technique and was completely shit. (Like proper shit)
Because he was embarrassed to be so shit he wouldn't ride it to get better if anyone was watching which didn't help.
Took me ages (best part of a year) to get him enthusiastic about and do anything half decent on the HT.
In retrospect I wish I'd kept a HT for him before he lost it ..
I don’t think they will need full suss for a few years yet but interested in others’ experience.
At just over that age mine showed continued interest, aptitude and we ride in a place most consider pretty gnarly. They were all in a bike club and had weekly coaching, one racing DH a bit.
Therefore they got FS at age 12-13 (paper round money contributed to the cost).
For me it was a good move - any younger I felt that the FS weight and size outweighed some of the advantages.
Since then FS makes sense where we are for them - they like to ride steep, rocks and jump. Ones very fast. One less fast. Ones now taken to the road and tracks on a CX/gravel bike.
Someone very kindly let me have a very light 26" wheel Kona FS frame in 16" for peanuts a few years ago, and another couple of friends had two pairs of Fox Floats in their loft that they very kindly gave us, so I'd say starting with nice kit probably helps.
Or oldest is 10, youngest 8. Both were on Orbea MX24s - rigid with v brakes. I dropped the travel on one of the Fox forks to ~65mm (basically used the air shaft push pins to get to 80mm then added an RS travel clip thing) to get them to the right general a-c. The 26" forks and 24" wheels meant I needed disc wheels - I looked for the lightest 24" rims I could find (drilled out trials rims in the end) and cheap Shimano hubs as they'd still work out lighter that the stock wheels and budget was an issue as he was paying for half from Christmas and birthday present money.
Aged 8, the oldest did 30km plus XC rides on this setup and trips to flyup417, but was outgrowing the frame by age 10. I swapped the 24" wheels and running gear onto the Kona frame and the other pair of Foxes running at full travel (125 front, 120 rear) and let him get on with it. He was quickly riding far smoother, pumping terrain more and generally working the bike better because (my theory, anyway) he can load the back at well as the front. He also has more time to pick lines in lumpy stuff when he'd be merely holding on with the old bike, so he's taking more creative line choices. The only downer is there wasn't enough space between the saddle rails and frame to fit a cheap t-mars knockoff - but he's on the cusp now. The 8 year old is also getting tall enough on his Mx to fit a dropper, so I can see a rather expensive double purchase on the horizon. He moved to a very nice bargain pair of 26" wheels for the oldest recently, too.
If you can find a cheap second hand FS frame that's reasonably light and swap 24" wheels onto it for a keen kid, they will get quicker faster.
It also helps that I tend to bargain-hunt for bike stuff as a matter of course, so it's not been as expensive a process as it could be and ask the kit gets used by both boys. Most recent bargain was a pair of brand new magura disc brakes at £60 - the other pair in use are some old Deores is still be running if I hadn't got a similar bargain for my Process on a pair of four pots. Keep things like old handlebars back - I've got the pairs in varying lengths that they move to add they get bigger.
Worth noting the 8 year old isn't quite so keen on mountain biking, and I don't have lovely cheap FS frames on tap, so there may be something of an empasse there when it comes tob extra height and fairness. At the moment he's got the short Foxes and disc 24s on and is enjoying things more now he can ride with a school friend and his dad rather than 'just' his own family.
Wouldn't sell your hardtail until you've tried a full suss of the type you want, or better still, have both! Beg Borrow or Rent one.
I've been riding rigid for the last 18 months, I love not having all the distractions that go with it...to much sag, its bobbing a bit, my rebounds too fast, sloppy pivots/bushings, leaving propedal in the wrong position. Now all I need to consider my tyre pressure which I've found is crucial (I run the front tyre pretty soft and bought a posh One-Up handlebar with lots of vertical damping)
I'm a few seconds slower than my fastest buddies on long runs of woodsy singletrack, but I was a lot slower on my old full susser! That may say more about 26v29er though...
Wouldn’t sell your hardtail until you’ve tried a full suss of the type you want, or better still, have both! Beg Borrow or Rent one.
If only someone had suggested that earlier... 😆 🤪
DezB
If only someone had suggested that earlier…
I'm in complete agreement. My point is to be aware of the honeymoon period.
Personally after a long journey I'm firmly in N+1 if practical and possible.
More simplistically and perhaps using the absurd as an example I'd love to hire a proper motorhome ... however I reckon it wouldn't be a great daily driver for me even though 2 weeks of luxury touring would be fantastic. The HT/FS is a bit more subtle (at least for me) than getting to the supermarket car park and not getting under the barrier though.
It's more (at least in my head) like how many of my mates have bought a DH bike ... used it a few times and realised it was cool for a while before selling it at a loss.
Perhaps the most important thing to consider in all of this (which nobody seems to have mentioned) is timing.
We're in the midst of an apparent retail bike drought (caused by CV19) and subsequent price inflations in the new and used bike markets. It's spring, you've got a bike that works and which you like riding OP. I suggest you just crack on and ride it for the next 6 months before revisiting this personal debate...
Starting to swap bikes/frames about now potentially risks missing out on riding through the most fun bit of the year by not having a usable bike.
When the weather turns in October is the 'best' time to re-evaluate the bike you have and the pros/cons of it for your preferred riding and available budget...
IMO of course...
