[Closed] Friends of The Hurtwood.

I was a Friend until I moved away last year and have turned up for a few dig days and I wasn't aware the access issue was this critical.
I'd be gutted if we lost Surrey Hills access. Especially if it was because we alienated ourselves from lack of gratitude and consideration.
I'm in Manchester right now but moving back down South in the next month or so if anyone's interested in getting involved in some kind of communications campaign to support Mark in this, it would be good to hear from you. Email in profile...

at the risk of being boring/repetitive.

I have ridden the trail in question a couple of times in the last week or so, and it is clear (thx to freer1denick) - but the bit where it had been trashed/logged is definitely NOT on Hurtwood land. This is the way it is over that bit of Surrey Hills so pls can we be clear about whose land we are on in future? If we are not sure, best to check before posting pretty pls.

Mark (the Ranger)'s plea about contributions is now on all the car park noticeboards Ive been to recently and aimed at all Hurtwood users, not just MTB.

They have lost grants in the cuts and need more members. We are not in a minority wrt membership % most locals arent members either - but if you value the riding and havent already contributed then please consider making a donation.

I've ridden in this area for a year or two, probably once or twice a month with friends. Like many others, we come from outside the area (Southampton for me), and despite looking on the internet many times I've never found a great source of information for MTBs in the Surrey Hills. This thread has now fixed this though.

First up, thank you hurtwoodranger. I think I'm probably like the 80 - 90%(?) of riders who visit Peaslake; I ride some trails, drink tea and eat cake at the village shop and then go home, and don't realise what a fantastic job you do behind the scenes.

I think a lot of good points have been made, and I do get both sides of the argument. In general, most folk I've met on the trails have been pleasant and really helpful, as have most walkers, etc. I guess I've never really strayed too far off the popular trails though, due to a lack of local knowledge; I've got no idea where half the trails are that have been mentioned!!

One thing I would have to echo though is there is a general lack of communication for MTBers coming into the area from outside. Whilst I've admittedly not been looking very closely, I've not seen anything in the car parks, pedal & spoke, the bus shelter or the shop about mountain biking, apart from one note saying that trails shouldn't be built or dug in the bus shelter. Nowt in the magazines either, apart from MBR talking about going to Peaslake all the time on twitter....

Personally, I'm more than happy to pay £25 to FOTH, and will be joining this evening; I'd also be happy to help out a bit as well, to give my bit back for such a great area to ride in.

I'm amazed there's not some type of car parking charge (ala trail centres) to help raise what sounds like some well needed cash. Compared to some of the trail centres I've ridden, £3 each time is a bargain!

Anyway, my first post on this forum, hope it wasn't a rant?!

Agreed, car parking charge makes sense with the only difficulty being stopping some egit driving their car up a verge to avoid a couple of quid. Would also possibly encourage people to come in the same car therefore cutting down on the rammed car parks and the environmental side of things. How about also getting the shop to make a donation? They may already do this in which case fair enough but if there is one business there that benefits from having the Hurtwood open for bikers that has to be it. Pedal & Spoke too for that matter.

Jambo13 - I think you correctly identify part of the problem - its very difficult to get a good source of reliable info on where to ride and where not to.

For example today I started in CP4 and went up to the Judges Seat. I then found a reasonably challenging (slippy after the rain and rooty) switchback off to the left about 100m past there. Nice route but a bit hard for me plus bit of a climb back out to the road again. So far so good - all on Hurtwood so hopefully no problems here.

I then crossed over onto Winterfold side of the road but still on Hurtwood. Found a nice little trail off the obvious bridleway (not switchbacks) and was having fun until the very end where the trail met a forestry road. I think that this is the border between H and W. The very end of the trail was blocked by trees and other debris - does this mean I was in the wrong area?? I have no idea.

Anyway followed the roads round to the short climb up to orange clawhammer and then back up to the road and the bridleway down towards Peaslake. After 2 (!!) cheese straws, a quick run up to the reservoir and then the track up towards Hombury Hill. Near the top, I turned r onto lovely, easy windy trail that ultimately came out at the top of Reggae Reggae judging by the signs on the trees there!! There was an obvious straight trail down on the RHS of the remnants of Reggae Reggae down to the forest road. But again, how do you know if that is OUB or not?

After this nice blast down Parklife/YPots and the run that crosses Telegraph Road. Don't know the name but awkward camber and slippy roots today made it trickier than TR for a novice like me. Nice run though round to U shaped bridleway that comes back to the YH car park and the bottom of TR. Up the forest road again to Holmbury Hill car park. Down Barry's which is flowing nicely and then knackering climb from farm up onto Pitch Hill. Looked at all the steep trails down to the pub but bottled it/put off to when I know what I am doing. Down to car park, up to the windmill. Had a sneaky look at J&J and found 2 headed dog plus attempted the narrow ridge between them. Again too hard for me and had to walk the bottom!! Then back to CP4. Just over 13 miles and 2 hours of fun including stops and route finding debates.

So all I need to know now is (1) where the two areas OUB and therefore likely to cause a problem if I am caught riding them and (2) what is the name of the trail on RHS of track up from reservoir that goes to top of RR and the one that crossed Tel Rd near the top with the camber and roots? And the steepish run past the Judges Seat?

p.s. You tube underestimates the Judges Seat jumps and 2 headed dog!!

Just looked at more detailed map. The first ?able trail is on Winterfold not Hurtwood. Leaves the main bridleway that marks the boundary and goes through the W in Wood and the i in Winterfold on the Hurtwood map to hit the forest road to the RHS of the marked footpath. So I guess, I shouldn't have been there? But why would this be a problem and not orange clawhammer?

teamhurtmore - and part of the problem is that unofficial trails are often only tolerated while their usage is low and not many people know about them. You might want to consider that before posting directions 😉

t-i-m - I thought about that but frankly most of the trails I did today were the very well known ones. But this is the crux of the problem - surely the use of the area has already grown beyond the point where there is an inner circle who keep trails quiet among themselves, other who stick to the well known ones and others still who may unintentionally stumble onto sensitive areas out of ignorance.

I understand why you might advise me and others not to pot location of threads but not sure that is the correct solution. Of the trails I did today, I can only guess that one (perhaps two) are not well known.

To be honest it doesn't matter so much if you accidentally ride a cheeky one - it matters very mcu if you [i]build [/i]one though!

Don't build anything.
Try as hard as you can to leave no marks.
Ride aware and be ready to stop.
Slow down (right, completely down - or stop even) when you meet people.
Heed all notices and signs.
Park considerately.

Just that would make the situation much better, if only everyone would do it.

Oh - and a modest donation to The Hurtwood would be money well spent, regardless of mountain biking or not.

Good advice glenp. So how did I do yesterday?

[b]Don't build anything:[/b] Passed
[b]Try as hard as you can to leave no marks:[/b] oops - it was a bit wet and slippy and twice I had to brake sharpish. Sorry!
[b]Ride aware and be ready to stop:[/b] Passed
[b]Slow down (right, completely down - or stop even) when you meet people:[/b] Passed - stopped for horses
[b]Heed all notices and signs: [/b]Passed - I think or this depends on access issues?!?!?
[b]Park considerately:[/b] Passed

Now if only I was a better rider I would be able to avoid braking and leaving marks. I was conscious of this yesterday.

Personally think that the clowns who ride at Mach 5 down the fireroads are more to blame for friction with walkers/horseriders than those who ride the actual trails, whether they are legal or not. Tends to be the lycra clad brigade in my experience as well, rather than the gnarly doooods that seem to be the focus of a lot of the general blame.

what t-i-m said plus a million

teamhurtmore - that's enough now pretty pls STFU 🙂 - if you have questions of that nature then you can email me and I will help you work out which trails are 'sanctioned' which are rideable but best kept quiet and which are trespass (but still ride them, just be prepared to act dumb and definitely dont post about them). I am sure there are plenty of others who have participated in this thread who would extend the same courtesy.

You will also be amazed how many riders will go straight past 'secret' trails seemingly with their eyes closed oblivious to their presence. That is their loss, if you ride around with your eyes open then you will have more fun - but it will pay you in the long-run to keep your cards closer to chest - this doesn't mean don't share stuff - it just means don't do it so publicly.

Winterfold - point taken and will follow up. But that was my original question (ie, who can help) but no-one responded. So thanks for your offer - I will email you.

Look, this is easily solved, Charge for parking in the carparks with meters. Similar pricing to Welsh trail centers.

Look, this is easily solved, Charge for parking in the carparks with meters. Similar pricing to Welsh trail centers.

Surely everyone would park on the verges in the villages makes bikers even more unpopular?

Rarely post here, but feel the need now.
Ridden there for the last 5 years, stopped last summer. The place is full of total morons (on all sides to keep things in perspective).

Such a shame, during the week its a gorgeous place to ride but CBA with the hassle of middle management mountain bikers who have blown their bonus on a full face lid and something with 180mm travel.

So much more riding around surrey, no need to cause friction by hundreds of us descending on their every weekend.
Have witnessed so much ignorance from fellow MTB'ers there.

If you want real friction between groups, have a ride along SDW at weekend. The walkers are armed with poles!

Bump.

Just creased myself watching the YouTube link. Seen several versions before but none to do with mountain biking in Peaslake.

Bump +1

Good work!

If you want real friction between groups, have a ride along SDW at weekend. The walkers are armed with poles!

I've been riding around Eastbourne end of SDW and Surrey Hills for years, all I've experienced is friendly walkers, runners, horse riders and bikers all enjoying the countryside. Use a bit of common sense, go when it's not too busy, during the week you'll have these places to yourself almost.

Chill out, slow down when it's not safe for others, go fast when it is safe for others, smile and say hello.

The place is full of total morons (on all sides to keep things in perspective).

That's not really keeping perspective is it? Life is too short for bike envy, there's always going to be someone with a better or more expensive bike than you.

That's not really keeping perspective is it? Life is too short for bike envy, there's always going to be someone with a better or more expensive bike than you.

Huh? How's that bike envy? I assumed that to mean walkers/cyclists etc, rather than anything about bike value.

The number of people in Peaslake seems to have risen massively since Pedal & Spoke moved in, not a slur on the shop, I've found Howard very friendly and wish them the best of luck, but many of them certainly seem very devoid of grey matter. I've seen several people being proper pillocks, which is totally unnecessary IMO, I often have no desire to stop in Peaslake anymore, there's too many obnoxious idiots standing there instead of riding!

@ njee20 - I referring to the usual dig at

middle management mountain bikers who have blown their bonus on a full face lid and something with 180mm travel.

Why is everyone so bitter, cheer up.

Edit. ....rides off on his brand new lapierre zesty 714 with easton haven carbon bar, stem and rims .

If it wasnt for the pork & leek slices I'd happily avoid stopping at peaslake in summer.

Driving through the village after riding on the Saturday before last, I noticed that the big car park was still half empty yet, the area around Pedal & Spoke was jammed full of parked cars and people on bikes blocking what little of the road was left.

What is the attraction of parking near that shop??

Fatlad - I can understand the sentiments if not the specific jibes. I am unlucky (lost my job) and lucky (can ride there during the week!) and actually amazed at how quiet the place is during the week. I have little desire to add to the weekend hoards though. The only problem with being there during the week is that it is hard to find others for advice on trails - hence the posts here that seem to annoy some!! Out of interest, where else in Surrey would you recommend for similar singletrack kind of stuff?

Another question - of the local guiding/instructor groups who has the best reputation/following?

Scott - 'tis strange that folk can't use the car parks?!?!?

I attended a Peaslake community council meeting last night as we had heard that there was going to be a motion put forward to extend the old no vehicles covenant that was put on in the 1920s to include bikes!

Thankfully this didn't happen but there will be signs up soon asking people to use the car parks (walking bottom is currently being improved to take more cars)

Apart from the usual suspects being anti bike i was bouyed to hear some non biking people stating how they thought the village centre was more vibrant with the bikers than without! Not something I was expecting

[i]Another question - of the local guiding/instructor groups who has the best reputation/following? [/i]

I haven't used any of the local guiding companies but this throws up a question... Wouldn't it be the case that if you were an 'official' guide, you'd need to obey local access agreements and therefore not ride cheeky trails? Surely as a professional you'd have to keep to sanctioned trails, bridleways etc and therefore by paying for a guided service, you wouldn't find the 'other stuff'. This is based on my knowledge of professional climbing guides who adhere to local access agreements etc.

Richard (and Glen) at Allbikedup highly recommended. Have used them for a few years now and seem to be as good with newbies as with those wanting something a little more advanced. Still can't cure me of my ingrained bad habits - picking nose, wiping snot on gloves, etc. - though.

Wouldn't it be the case that if you were an 'official' guide, you'd need to obey local access agreements and therefore not ride cheeky trails?

Thanks for the nice words, vd.

Out of interest, where else in Surrey would you recommend for similar singletrack kind of stuff?

Ranmore Common, Box Hill, North Downs Way from Box Hill to Woldingham is a great ride, around Woldingham is some great ST too, drop into Marden Park, Limpsfield Chart. Believe it or not there's some great riding south of Croydon if you know how to link up all the BP's and put in XC miles.

glenp

Good to know - just from a moral point of view you understand. 🙂

As a middle manager with a 6 inch travel bike that I got for peanuts and dont really need, without a full face helmet, who does like pork and leek slices and is a friend of Hurtwood but doesn't wear pads but does know lots of the cheeky trails am I still allowed to park in Car park 9?

I'm really confused.

Ah, good points joolsburger. Just remember, it's a bit like:

[i]If a middle manager rides in the woods and leaves no marks, does it matter?
[/i]
Or the more traditional; [i]if a tree falls in the forest and no-one is there, does it make a sound?[/i]

Or my preference; [i]if a man speaks and no woman is there to hear him, is he still wrong?[/i]

Sorry to wade in late- but I'm new to mtbing in the area, although have always been a walker.
From this topic it becomes clear that there are so many contentious issues affecting Peaslake and the rest of the Surrey Hills;

-land access
-biker membership of FotH
-the maintenance of trails/demolishing illegal trails
-the relationship between bikers and other land users
-the location of trails and whether it is okay to share them and give directions

By withholding information about trails it forces the many newbies there are to go out blind trying to find these allusive trails, and will undoubtedly stumble upon land that shouldn't be cycled on unknowingly and cause unnecessary aggro with other land users/owners.

I've found the easiest way is to go with eyes wide open and ask riders who look like they know where they are going, but is there really a difference between local riders giving people heads up in person to over the internet? As I'm certain I will have bumped into people who are on STW. Or is it just because it is on STW that people withhold directions as they can be seen by an very large, very active biking community which they are scared will descend upon their favourite trails or will reprimand them on the interweb?

All said and done it is ace to find track for yourself (although knowing whether its legal or not is still rather dubious)

[i]but is there really a difference between local riders giving people heads up in person to over the internet?[/i]
In principle no. However, local riders will tend to pass on information to local/frequent riders of the area in preference. Reason is that those who ride regularly, or are local, will tend to have a better understanding of which areas/trails are more contentious than others. They are therefore, perhaps, more likely to ride said trails with a more 'eyes wide open' attitude towards time of day, day of the week, numbers in the party etc.
Word tends to go around with further instructions such as "watch out as you exit, it's a blind left-hander", "there's a breeding pen in front of you so don't extend the trail", "there's a massive un-avoidable gap jump" etc, etc, etc. This has the effect of fore-warning others in advance on a first hand basis. Word does slowly get around and usually with those cautions in place.
If you broadcast it on t'internet, publish GPS routes etc, there's a better than average chance of big groups heading down trails not knowing what's coming, where the dangers are and where to stop (not to mention when to keep quiet!).
I don't think it's elitist, most trails that started as 'secret' don't end up that way for long - just that those with a reputation tend to have their reputation circulated in advance (if that makes sense!).

By withholding information about trails it forces the many newbies there are to go out blind trying to find these allusive trails, and will undoubtedly stumble upon land that shouldn't be cycled on unknowingly and cause unnecessary aggro with other land users/owners

And it's not exactly hard to read a map and work out what is permitted. As a rule, what isn't permitted will either be fenced off or have some logs blocking the start of the trail.

The more that gets posted on line, the more that the area is perceived as a trail centre, which will cause even more problems.

t_i_m, how do you interpret this part of the Hurtwood code of conduct:

"Riders must not create new trails, please use the existing network." - does that mean forest trails and sanctioned trails eg Parklife, Barry's etc only? What constitutes creating a trail - having a shovel in your pack or merely following someone else's new trail in the woods? I don't know and I think this is what lies behind tyredbiker and my comments and questions. Its not a case of reading a map and knowing the boundaries eg Winterfold and Hurtwood (we can do that) - we are merely asking for advice to ensure that we do not create any problems for all.

I would have thought that a mtb forum would be the perfect place to ask such questions (the readership is not THAT wide, surely) but there "seems" to be a tendency to knock genuine requests and hide behind a "need to know" veil of secrecy. All a bit bizarre really?

If you tally it up there are around 15 odd sanctioned and legacy trails on Leith, Pitch and Holmbury alone. Add to that the little diverts and links and all the jumpy, droppy bits and there should be enough riding for most. Still it is a crying shame that some of the cheeky but excellent trails at Winterfold and most sadly that trail on Holmbury that was beautifully made and absolutely great to ride were put out of use. It would be brilliant if through some kind of process and with the landowners consent a few more long, well made and sustainable trails could be created to take pressure off the exisiting network and also to keep bikes away from other users of the hills. It seems that discussion is not taking place and I'd be interested in knowing how it could be instigated?

Joolsburger - someone was trying to get something going a few months ago, but it all seems to have gone quiet. Maybe Mark (not Ranger Mark) could post a few words and let people know what is going on?

tyredbiker - perception is everything, posting about 'new' trails on Interwebs and using four different names for the same trail all creates a perception of more MTB among people who keep an eye on these forums who are not bikers.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, there are a vociferous group of Peaslake residents for whom:

MORE TRAILS = MORE MTB = END OF PEASLAKE AS THEY KNOW IT

Hurtwood want to keep these people sweet, or at least minimise their reasons for moaning, so it is in our interests to make the sensible amount of noise, rather than lots of it.

If you have even two or three braincells it really is very easy to find trails, work out boundaries, by looking on maps, asking people, PMing them and so on. I am happy to help people avoid trespass 😉 if they PM, but noone ever seems to bother taking the offer up.

Another way that people can help with this perception problem is, if it is possible to avoid riding at weekends. Or at least not park in the centre of the village and mince about at the bus stop.

Does anyone know why the Peaslake Hitler vid was taken down the first time it was put up?

(Dangerously close to Godwin's law there so I'm out, scratched record by now anyway)

Winterfold - I am guilty of not following up on from your PM offer. Does this work via STW or should we use direct email?

I was also wondering about the vid and why it had been pulled. Seemed quite well done and on the button and as long as people have a GSOH should have been taken in the correct spirit - but you never know.

Might be tempted with a quick spin up there myself this pm, now that the sun is out!!

Think you'll find the Hitler vid will have been taken down because of infringement of copyright - nothing to do with the subject!

how do you interpret this part of the Hurtwood code of conduct

Publishing a map is only ever going to compound the problem as it'll increase traffic to unofficial trails and make them seem more official. And I think that you'd be surprised by the number of people asking for a trail centre style map of the area.

Just go exploring, find stuff and ride it. Not hard, esp if you live in the area.

I'm genuinely struggling to understand why this is causing so much confusion. I'm getting the feeling that you're already a considerate rider, who isn't really causing any problems. Except for posting up directions to tails 🙂

May have unwittingly 'strayed' from the path in Winterfold on tuesday with a few friends on a social day out.

Took a well used and well known trail to exit on a forestry path. Climb briefly on this fireraod and turn in again and the bottom was all closed off with brush. At which point a man in a big logging tractor hares up and tells us we shouldn't be there.

Looking at the map carefully now, it looks like the fireroad at the end of section 1 is the boundary, correct? So do I have to avoid section 2, and there used to be a section 3 that is blocked at both ends.

There also used to be a difficult (to me) switchback section near there, also blocked. All out of bounds now?

Lastly, what's the score on forestry roads in Winterfold, can we use these or only official RoW?

Man on tractor was fierce but perfectly pleasant btw, siad it wasn't his land but as he was working for the landowner he'd been asked to police the area as part of his worjk for any miscreants and point out where they can go.

yep those are off Hurtwood land and shouldnt be ridden you very bad boys :wink:, the switchbacks one has been made unrideable in any case

might be worth editing a bit of the detail out that post, just a suggestion

glenp - Member

Think you'll find the Hitler vid will have been taken down because of infringement of copyright - nothing to do with the subject!

That's what I assumed - but surely a link is not a copyright infringement? And while I respect STW's desire to protect other's copyright - I fail to see the difference between that 'homage' and 'Sleepless in the Saddle' well except the Hitler/hurtwood video is actually funny...

theotherjonv - c'mon, this isn't difficult. You clearly know which trails are on the private/logging land owners area. So officially, you shouldn't be riding them. And you shouldn't be overly surprised if these trails get blocked off, which they regulary do. BTW, they've been actively logging in the area you're talking about, so prob more keen than normal to make sure that people dont turn up there unexpectedly.