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This is my first post and I am rel new to mtb in Surrey Hills. I have been up about 5 times to Holmbury, Pitch and Winterfold. Found most of the obvious tracks from threads and you tube. I have been on my own mostly and have enjoyed exploring although this is an inefficient way to find trails. This week followed group by Windmill and came to a very scary drop off above the winterfold road - good job I was going slow enough to bottle it.
But my main question relates to appropriate behaviour for mtb and how I can avoid causing problems. I have picked up that there is a lot of tension in the area with mtb. I am worried that my casual wanderings may aggrevate people if I am on sensitive areas. But how do you know where and where not to ride eg, I hear that the drop off by the graveyard to the car park is causing aggravation etc. This week I was on winterfold and having great fun on orange clawback (I think?) and what i guess remains of the switchback (does this include the three little bombholes near the top?). I was then exploring on trails to the east of this and found a few great little trails that had been trashed near the bottom. How do I know if this was in an area where mtb was being discouraged (they dropped off onto the well used main forestry road)?
I guess there is a balance to having routes remaining not too obvious and hence overused and having newbies like me inadvertantly straying into sensitive areas without knowing it?
I had wondered what Peaslake residents made of it. I tend to go during week and have been amazed at how quiet it is. Always buy something in stores as a token gesture.
Sorry for the first post ramble, but I am keen to ensure that I behave in the correct manner.
I'm convinced that the single biggest and best thing all bikers can do to help keep the peace is be ever more courteous. Don't ride past walkers at anything other than walking pace (or take a moment and just stop) - don't ride past horses at all (let them ride past you). A lot of riders don't ever go for a walk - if they did they might realise that a bike buzzing past is a lot more intimidating than you might think.
The Peaslake jam is another pressure point, which would be helped enormously if everyone went round the corner and parked in the car park.
Out of interest does anyone know the name of the big drop off near the windmill. From car park, up wide track, then back towards Windmill. TR on track then TL in about 50m and drops are 50-100m ahead. This drop has a slight bend in it and is in the trees? Scary for a novice like me!!
Are the forest roads down from the big electronic gates out-of-bounds? I came up them looking for start of orange claw hammer?
glenp
[I'm convinced that the single biggest and best thing all bikers can do to help keep the peace is be ever more courteous. Don't ride past walkers at anything other than walking pace (or take a moment and just stop) - don't ride past horses at all (let them ride past you). A lot of riders don't ever go for a walk - if they did they might realise that a bike buzzing past is a lot more intimidating than you might think]
I completely agree glenp. It costs nothing to check your speed and be polite and courteous to other users of the area and a polite attitude like this goes a long way in most cases to how people view us.
i understand that with some local people it does not seem matter how polite you are. I have had personal experience with one group of walkers with them being very obnoxious and rude walking up trails that i have been riding down, almost trying to cause a confrontation no matter how polite you try and be. This has only ever happened once in the last 6 years so i guess that's not bad.
What i do not understand is if any of these trails like the one in question is not part of the Hurtwood? and i cannot confirm if this is the case but, Can anyone explain why if the trail in question is not on the Hurtwood side of things for example: If this area is owned by another land owner. Then Why if the landowner had - had enough of mountain bikers on his land, then why would he not just fence it off as private property and stop everyone using it ?
Appologies for long winded post but i am just trying to get a better understanding of how the area works.
Thanks
Paul
"Then Why if the landowner had - had enough of mountain bikers on his land, then why would he not just fence it off as private property and stop everyone using it ?"
I suspect you haven't ridden from the bombholes onto the switchback trail recently. Fences cost money, especially on the size and scale required to keep us out - people dont acquire the kind of money required to buy large parts of rock star Surrey without being careful about money.
TeamHurtmore - you have probably found 2 headed dog, although there is quite a good surprise drop off on the end of a new trail sort of around there.
It's worth having a look at a map and working out where the boundaries are, just so you know when you can stand your ground when challenged and when you need to be discrete.
The line is at the end of the section of trail with the 3 bombholes in.
The trail in question that troutie mentioned is Evian (I believe it's called)
I cleared some brush off it yesterday so that a route is passable down to the bridleway. I am sure that the logging is going to continue for some time yet on the side of the hill.
[i]Out of interest does anyone know the name of the big drop off near the windmill. From car park, up wide track, then back towards Windmill. TR on track then TL in about 50m and drops are 50-100m ahead. This drop has a slight bend in it and is in the trees? Scary for a novice like me!![/i]
If it's the very steep one with the slight right-hander half way down with the compression at the bottom, it's called "Johnson & Johnson" - not as difficult as it looks. Could be 2 Headed Dog but there's no bend in 2 Headed Dog though.
J&J definitely sounds like it - definite slight R hander half way down. All the guys in the group I was following went straight down except the last one who stopped to have a look first!!
A few easier drops to the LHS into similar compressions but now nearly as scary to look at.
The Winterfold side seems to have longer, faster runs than Pitch which seem to have more roots and technical sections. Nice contast between the two.
I might try a day of guiding to learn the area better.
Personally I am a "Friend" and I'm happy to stay as such. For me it's not about having new trails built for us, it's about the fight to keep access.
If you want expensive trail building then go to a trail centre, or semi-trail centre like Swinley and put up with the likes of BoB lording it over the place 😉
The way I see it is there is a lot of vocal and possibly high profile pressure against MTB in the Hurtwood at the moment and one of the reasons for this is few of us join the FOTH or attend the meetings. The result is we are branded "drunken swearing hooligans" and the pressure could be on to rid the hills of bikes...
http://www.surreyhillsmtber.co.uk/239/surrey-advertiser-article/
With less representation from the MTB folk and less money to support us, even if it's just to allow us access, the risk is we get kicked off.
As for trail building and maintenance, whilst building new trails without permission is no go*, the invite is open to get involved with official building by contacting mtb@hurtwoodcontrol.co.uk. I'd say go get involved instead of moaning.
* - be fair, would you like some kids to come and dig up your garden to build some jumps without your permission?
I agree deadkenny you cant change things like this from the outside.
Get on the inside, the ramblers and horse-riders understand this and are well in there. Even if its just a 50p a week donation to keep the Ranger working.
The Hurtwood is private land (admittedly with a charter to support public use). Logging is the primary income for the land. Without the logging it would't be viable to manage the estate and it would have to be sold. So while I hate finding trails messed up by logging it's a necessary evil.
It's always possible to find reasons for not supporting something and I don't always like everything the Hurtwood does, but looking at the £1000s worth of bikes at Peaslake every day it's hard to see a reason not to contribute £25 a year for some of the best riding in SE England. The more of us who engage with the Hurtwood the more our voices will be heard.
I agree deadkenny you cant change things like this from the outside.Get on the inside, the ramblers and horse-riders understand this and are well in there. Even if its just a 50p a week donation to keep the Ranger working.
Maybe some donation boxes at the common meeting / stopping points for MTB riders??
Genuine, honest question/comment here...
If by not being a Friend of Hurtwood, I carry on riding the cheeky trails, nothing changes for me really. The threat of banning bikes from the Hills would be unworkable so it would continue ban or no ban.
If then by joining the Friends of Hurtwood, I'm on the 'inside' but pressure from larger groups (walkers, locals for example) forces the MTB'ers to make concessions to their riding areas, I seem to lose out. I can't see mountain bikers getting the go-ahead to ride everywhere they do already.
Why then would I join and give money for a cause that's probably a non-starter?
Only my opinion but it's extremely unlikely there's ever going to be as many MTB'ers in FOH than walkers and local residents. We'd therefore be a minority view and get voted down and pressured into making concessions. These concessions would then be unworkable largely because most MTB'ers wont be members, won't know the concessions and wont change their behaviour anyhow.
Am I missing something here?...and hope that makes sense!
dorkingtrailpixie
there's no arguing with your pov - but it makes you a bit of a freeloader IMO - that sounds pejorative but I respect it as a rational choice.
you can apply the same argument to parish councils, school governors, etc etc
there are loads of things that get done only because people give some time or a bit of dosh voluntarily
I dont have a problem with people being too busy at work or having families or just not wanting to do committees to get involved. But I think when you do that you give up the right to have anyone listen when you have a moan. Except on here.
And in this case you can just bung them £25 and have no more involvement then that and then have a moan. It's not even one decent tyre.
On the other hand if every MTBer who rode Hurtwood joined we would form a substantial body who would have to be listened to, but I dont see that happening. It's just not that kind of sport.
I am a member, no problem paying 25 quid a year for the carparking etc, clearing up flytiping etc.
I am also a dog walker, nature lover so look at it in a more general way.
Trails come and go over the years - we have more than ever before so I am not complaining....
Just been and cleared the MBR trail. so its good to go all the way 😀
Nick - Im still not clear which one we were discussing - can you PM me?
winterfold , send me an email as can't see yours??
Fair enough Winterfold, get the idea. I think your last comment about MTB'ing just not being that type of sport rings true. I'll mull the membership thing over a bit, part of me thinks that some committees cause more problems than they fix. I've first hand experience of Parish Councils and the in-fighting and politically driven goals of some members (political with a small 'P' there). Can't accuse FOH of that as I have no first hand knowledge.
freeridernick - I too am a dog walker and nature lover. I tend to pick up rubbish on dog walks. Doesn't matter how much money I pay to a membership scheme, nobody is going to walk around Redlands picking up the beer cans/fag packets. That's not a poke at you by the way, just saying I do my bit but in a quiet 'just get on with it' kind of way. Don't expect everyone to go around picking up litter but I'm quite happy to do it on my own patch.
dorkingtrailpixie.
Just imagine if the Hurtwood did end up getting sold and someone like the Wotton estate got it...
It would end up with barbed wire fences and pheasants shoots all over it 😈
Since Friends of Hurtwood is a charity, and the committee is, at least in part, electable - then the best way for riders to protect and enhance their right to ride is to get together, join, put forward some candidates, attend the AGM and vote them onto the committee.
simples!
The ranger's blog gives a bit of an insight into the work done by the Hurtwood. It says that assurances were given that BKB wouldn't be wrecked during logging, so if there is damage it's because contractors didn't do what they were told. [url= http://www.friendsofthehurtwood.co.uk/rangers-blog.html ]http://www.friendsofthehurtwood.co.uk/rangers-blog.html[/url]
As for trail maintenance, we can't expect it all to be done for us. The income Hurtwood gets is not enough to maintain all the trails, which are only a small part of the activity in Hurtwood. Here's the site for trail volunteers, which also contains useful updates on what's going on with the trails. [url= http://hurtwoodtrails.wordpress.com/ ]http://hurtwoodtrails.wordpress.com/[/url]. Similarly, at Swinley most, if not all, of the trail maintenance is done by volunteers recruited by Berks on Bikes & Gorrick. As with most things in life, getting actively involved is more productive than passive complaint. As Zulu-Eleven says, getting involved with the charity trustees could be productive as could getting involved in trail maintenance.
[i]Just imagine if the Hurtwood did end up getting sold and someone like the Wotton estate got it...
It would end up with barbed wire fences and pheasants shoots all over it [/i]
Not sure here but isn't it in trust (Hurtwood that is) and therefore the covenants attached would be passed onto any possible new owner?
As for trail maintenance, apart from the sanctioned trails, local riders by and large tend to look after the maintenance themselves. Think I prefer it that way. Over the years, many of the sanctioned trails have become 'bland' in my view only. Not sure I want sanctioned trail builders/maintenance work done on many of the trails covering our hills. Just my POV.
As I read this, I am drawn to the conclusion that riders should join the FOTH and try to engage as much as possible. This is a beautiful area but one that is rapidly facing the pressure of managing its sustainable development - a future GCSE geog case study perhaps?
I think that riders are likely to be PERCEIVED as the most anti-social of the main user groups and hence it is our responsibility to combat this perception, not the other way round. Engagement and refraining from internet or actual abuse/criticism would be a start.
I still feel uneasy about the fact that it is difficult to make sure that we are cycling in the correct areas. I emailed FOTH for their advice and specific questions re the Winterfold side of things (is this McAllister's land?). They referred me to the map - which helps but still leaves a lot of questions unaswered eg, switchback (to the extent that it still exists?) seems to start on Hurtwood and finish on the boundary, orange clawhammer definitely seems to straddle both and the routes I found north of carparks 12 and 13 seem to be on Hurtwood but the bottoms of the trails had been trashed and covered in logs and debris. All too confusing????
The thing that worries me is crashing into a walker. The singletracks are narrow and often hidden, so it would be easy to come across another user out-of-the blue.
I even came across a runner of Barry Knows Better the other day - he was running down the berms and oblivious to anyone coming up behind
teamhurtmore - on W1nterf0ld ride all trails that are there and do not give a shit about the sensitivities of other possible owners - he is deficient in his general kharma and upsetting him by riding trails on his land rebalances the well-being of the universe.
Having enjoyed the trails dont talk about it online much. (freerideNick will laugh at me for being paranoid but careless talk costs trails)
If challenged look innocent and doe-eyed and say something like 'Am I not on Hurtwood land then?' and politely ask to be directed to the nearest right of way.
(Xmas Pud/Flicking the Vs/Ewok village - this is all sanctioned/legit/dandy)
teamhurtmore - on W1nterf0ld ride all trails that are there and do not give a shit about the sensitivities of other possible owners - he is deficient in his general kharma and upsetting him by riding trails on his land rebalances the well-being of the universe.Having enjoyed the trails dont talk about it online much. (freerideNick will laugh at me for being paranoid but careless talk costs trails)You obviously know this area better than me, but I can't see how this helps.
This is part of my problem with mtb-ing in the area. There seems to be this prevailing attitude that keeping things quiet is the best solution. But surely, this is only up to a point. OK, I accept that this may reduce risk of trail over-use but equally it increases the chances that people will cycle in the wrong areas due to ignorance. If there was some guidance on where/where not to ride that would be great.
If challenged look innocent and doe-eyed and say something like 'Am I not on Hurtwood land then?' and politely ask to be directed to the nearest right of way.My current strategy !!!
(Xmas Pud/Flicking the Vs/Ewok village - this is all sanctioned/legit/dandy)The stupid question - how do I find these? Is Xmas pud the same as orange clawhammer - 3/4 sections - top bit, second bit with small jump between V-shaped tree, third section after the X-track thru the dark bit and finally, the option to go down the stony track after the cottages (or loop back to the road here)??
BKB is a runner's, walkers and bike trail. Nothing up there is bike-only.
Which means, as mentioned above, we do need to ride with the awareness that kids, dogs, OAPs etc could, legitimately, be round the corner.
Yes it means less flow and gnarr etc, but personally I don't want my Sunday ride experience to be one of putting a kid in hospital with concussion...
Out of interest does anyone know the name of the big drop off near the windmill. From car park, up wide track, then back towards Windmill. TR on track then TL in about 50m and drops are 50-100m ahead. This drop has a slight bend in it and is in the trees? Scary for a novice like me!!
You're not talking about Sleepy Hollow are you? More of a roll than a drop-off. But it's in the trees and over very quickly. I think there's another immed to the right IIRC. Or are you referring to what used to be 3-4 steep roll-ins/drops that take you down to the road oppo car park (with the pub on the right)?
xmas pad/clawhammer are the same trail.
Since Friends of Hurtwood is a charity, and the committee is, at least in part, electable - then the best way for riders to protect and enhance their right to ride is to get together, join, put forward some candidates, attend the AGM and vote them onto the committee.
While I lack the time/effort to attend meetings, I would show up to an AGM to make the above happen. Pretty sure that I could persuade others to do the same.
Space monkey - from the previous description I am sure its J&J - steep drop with slight RH half way down. I have yet to find sleepy hollow and only seen this on YTube. To the left of J&J there are two obvious lines but I am not sure they are sleepy hollow either. They both go down towards the winterfold road.
Is the track you refer to on the Pitch Hill side? The guys I followed just up to J&J (!!) had started by going up the Pitch Hill track as I was getting ready and then re-emerged coming back up from the pub quickly after before heading off to J&J. They obviously knew what they were doing. I saw this on Ytube and looks steep?
When I said "back to the windmill" I was referring to turning back after the initial little climb on the other side of the road from the car park. Not the pub.
I haven’t in the past got involved in any of the Hurtwood threads on here, simply because I don’t have the time. However I think there are a couple of inaccuracies on here that need redressing, and that some of the earlier comments on this thread, show a level of ignorance and selfishness beyond all belief.
I’m not sure where the trail that the OP talking about is, but if there’s currently logging work going on around it, then it’s not on land managed by us.
Firstly The Hurtwood is a commercial forest and it’s managed for its timber resource, that’s how the landowners make their money. There is no financial benefit in allowing public access to the land whatsoever, quite the opposite. It currently cost between £70- £80k per annum, these costs are covered by donations from the users of The Hurtwood, the landowners, and up till now, local authorities. Sadly only a handful of MTBers feel the benefits they enjoy, are worth donating towards.
The Rhododendrons are being cut by the landowners, as part of widely recognized sound forestry practice, and nothing to do with FotH.
It’s sad to read that some of you feel the recent logging work, especially around BKB, was done with little regard for the trail. I went to great lengths to get the loggers to work around the trail as much as they could and cause as little damage as possible, considering it’s still totally rideable I was quite pleased, I’m starting to wish I hadn’t wasted my time. It’s a shame as the extra work involved, not just in my time, but has also cost the estate a lot of money.
For those of you that feel you don’t want to pay a few pounds each month to ride here, fine, I’m not going to try to persuade you otherwise, though I take it you’ll not be coming back again to ride any of the existing miles of trails that have been left untouched, for you to use, or making use of any of the car parks. The irony is that we’re losing our core donors because of the number of MTBers and their general aggressive attitude, perceived or real. So you guys don’t want to donate because we asked you not to build any more trails, you did, we bulldozed it, you all had a hissy fit. The current donors don’t want to donate because they think we let you guys ride all over the place screaming and shouting and generally being abusive to others, etc etc. Does the phrase “Damned if we do, damned if we don’t”, spring to mind?
The bottom line is, unless there’s an increase in our income, The Hurtwood will close, and probably before 2015. Horse riders and MTB’s will only be allowed on the statutory Bridleways. As the responsibility for insuring the area will fall to the land owners, they will want to reduce their liability to as little as possible. Consequently all the carparks will be shut, any parking areas on verges will be ditched and all the bike trails will be bulldozed. I’d be out of a job, that means the hundreds of school children, that I take out will obviously stop, the talks I give in schools about the countryside will stop etc etc. Arguably though on the plus side, you’d then have a blank canvas to do whatever you liked, albeit illegally. Shame for everyone else though.
Any one who knows me will know I generally fight your corner, always giving you the benefit of the doubt, always going a little bit further than I need, to protect your interests. When all the locals are giving me earache about what the MTBers have done, how rude you all are, (this is my stock reply) “I’m sorry you had a bad experience, like all sectors of society, there’s always a few rogues. Please don’t be put off by them, and please continue to enjoy the area”.
Unfortunately, and probably in part due to the current sheer number of bikers, I find myself having to say this too often these days.
All the FotH are asking, is you show some respect for other users, ride at a speed that you’re not going to frighten old ladies or run over a little kiddie, stop building new trails and start contributing to the costs of the up-keep. Thanks 🙂
If thats not a reason to join, then don't know what is!
thank you for posting Mr Ranger.
...show a level of ignorance and selfishness beyond all belief.
I have to agree, sadly
I’m starting to wish I hadn’t wasted my time. It’s a shame as the extra work involved, not just in my time, but has also cost the estate a lot of money.
That's a pity and reminds people to think before they criticise. I did try and ride Barrys a few weeks ago and the logging made it impassable, but that was only temporary. So I (for one) appreciate your efforts
For those of you that feel you don’t want to pay a few pounds each month to ride here, fine, I’m not going to try to persuade you otherwise, though I take it you’ll not be coming back again to ride any of the existing miles of trails that have been left untouched, for you to use, or making use of any of the car parks.
Fair point as is the conclusion:
All the FotH are asking, is you show some respect for other users, ride at a speed that you’re not going to frighten old ladies or run over a little kiddie, stop building new trails and start contributing to the costs of the up-keep.
thank you for posting Mr Ranger.+1
Personally I thought the damage to BKB was minimal and the crews did a remarkably good job (as they did on the NT land around Summer Lightning). I've seen areas where the trails weren't protected and you can't even trace the route on the ground let alone ride.
Thanks - and keep up the good work.
I hadn't joined in the past as it somehow didn't seem right to be a "friend" of somewhere I don't really live anywhere near. I've joined up now as £25 is piss all in the grand scheme of things, even if I do only ride there a handful of times a year.
hurtwoodranger
A heartfelt, empassioned post.
You raise several points that I've not known of before, the school children and the work you do there especially. Knowing this, I feel that the donation for the year is fair play. I genuinely didn't know the yearly subs included such a diverse range of activities. Forget mountain biking for the moment - the other work is perhaps even more important to maintain. Will therefore join for those reasons alone.
Not sure here but isn't it in trust (Hurtwood that is) and therefore the covenants attached would be passed onto any possible new owner?
The covenant will disappear and the only official access will be footpaths and bridleways, as the ranger says the landowners will want to limit their liability.
Not sure I want sanctioned trail builders/maintenance work done on many of the trails covering our hills. Just my POV.
The sheer number of riders, the "quality" of their riding coupled with easily eroded trails ridden all year around means that some trails will have to be attended to.
[i]The covenant will disappear and the only official access will be footpaths and bridleways, as the ranger says the landowners will want to limit their liability.[/i]
How does that work? covenants don't just disappear to my knowledge, please explain.
I think alot of the problem is that the vast majority of the riders are not locals so might not even know what the FOTH are or what they do. They would probably sign up knowing more?
Somehow this needs to become knowledge, whether through the local bike shops or the main mags. MBR do alot of their shoots down here - a little piece in the Mag would be a good idea.
Mr Ranger if your reading still, could you put something up in the main carparks along the lines of what the Hurtwood does etc and how joining would be of a benefit?
freeridenick
I'm local and had no idea what they did. I'm not to blame there. I'm sure they have no budget for publicity/marketing but that's one thing that's missing here. If you don't get your message out, no one hears.
Local bike shops may want to play a part here? If some sort of poster is produced, then it could be displayed in bike shops, the car parks, start of sanctioned trails etc.
This sounds like a fund raising campaign - to get MTB'ers to sign up, you'll have to focus a positive message to them. This in turn may lead other FOH interests to believe that the Ranger has a bias towards MTB'ers which can't be done. Tricky one that.
I doubt you'd get MBR to run a story - too political for them I'd guess, not really in their remit with advertisers etc.
So then, sounds like someone's got to pick up the baton and start some kind of 'Mountain Bike Friends of The Friends of Hurtwood' - any takers? C'mon, it's a catchy title!
Same here, well Dorking local anyway! and also had no real idea at what they did.
As you say its a catch 22 as money spent on marketing means less money spent on the ground.
I think an email off to the editors of the 4 main bike mags - they might run a little story - no harm in trying!
Rog and Dan in Head for the Hills would probably put something up as well.
I was talking to a mate about this the other night and would like to get involved/help out. I've just signed up for a £10 monthly donation, which I know it isn't much, but every little helps. I do often walk the trails on the hills, moving debris and rubbish where I can (hope this is OK).
I think the what people are saying about lack of knowledge is very true, and I think this must be one area where we can help. I know it should be common sense that we all slow down or stop for other users and always be friendly and polite, but it appears not everyone has sussed this out! I think the poster idea (on notice boards, bike shops and the bus stop) is a good idea. Also how about collection boxes in bike shops, pubs and Peaslake store?
The good thing with having lots of trails is that it does keep the bikes away from the other users a fair bit, as most walkers and horse riders appear to stick to the fire roads.
Thanks very much for all your hardwork Ranger Mark and the volenteers. You are right by the way - most of us are good people. 😀
So there you go,as I've said many times 'the Ranger' (Mark) is a good bloke doing a good job and looking out for us.
Forget the rest of it, making a donation keeps him there, instead of a barbed wire fence.
Simple really.
(Im not convinced about the publicity stuff. Id been mountain biking about 4 weeks before knowing who he was, what Hurtwood was about, had joined etc theres this thing called The Interweb you type words in it tells you stuff. I wonder if MTBers spend their time wandering around in a magic cloud of trail pixie dust with little clue how the world actually works?)
winterfold
Coincidence, you were lucky, had friends who made you aware...whatever reason. Having side swipes isn't going to encourage people to join, may just confirm my suspicions about in fighting etc. For some of us, mountain biking is just part of our lives and we don't spend a huge amount of time reading about it also.
Yeah fair points. That said all I did was read the sign in cp3.
But the simple fact is lots of riders, not many members, so thanks for reconsidering and stumping up.