[Closed] French Alps MTB guiding row in the Telegraph

walleater - Member
As an ex-guide working outside of Britain but mainly guiding Brits, I think the real reason that companies employ such people, is that the locals aren't stupid enough to work for the wages that these companies pay.

Going back to my previous statement, pay less, charge less, undercut the locals who have paid for the training.
Nice business plan.

Northwind: well I see things differently, I thought if they were mostly Spanish clients/tourists they would value some interaction/knowledge with/from locals... when travelling abroad! Coming to UK to stay, cycle, eat , etc with Spanish people and not mixing with locals at all would be strange to me, but maybe you are right and it's me the strange one.
Don't know if it's TA policy but it could be seen this way. I don't know if French authorities are trying to protect French guides only or guides in general (proper wages and job conditions, etc.)could be seen both ways.

walleater: I hope this isn't the case of TA, but yes people here tend to see this jobs as a summer job for which you can be exploited, and not just a job.

Iolo, judging by your man Math's with an S, if TA pay their guides £60 a day would you then expect a 5 day break in the region for £300 ?

And as there were 10 in the group would you then scale that down to £30 leaving the other 9 in the party to pay a proportion of the rest.
And then when you returned from a good days riding would you then feed your self and sleep in your car in the car park ?

I'm just trying to grasp your side of the argument, I'm looking at accom, food, cleaning, logistics, admin etc.

Maybe you should cost the week away, just pay a company for guiding only and then once in situ pay your own way, see if it works out cheaper.

I'm not saying about the accommodation and food, I'm sure it's top notch.
I'm saying the training costs are much lower by TA.
A competitor who also produces top notch food and accommodation but with the expensive french accreditation will always be more expensive.
Or have I missed something discoduck?

One day, the French will recognise that competition is good. It's almost happening in the ski industry's. For years the ESF gave crap service and we saw the rise of new schools including those staffed by foreign instructors who could and would speak the language if the client. I made the switch for my family. Very slowly the ESF emerged and evolved to the extent that I often go back to them for collective "competition" classes. With people off using the competition, this means a class of 1-3 people for what becomes great value off-piste guiding, albeit I have to use my French.

But if we are going to complain about protectionism, let's also look in the mirror at our attitude towards foreign workers. Ok we are not as bad as the French, but we are far from perfect.

Miguelo - Member

Northwind: well I see things differently, I thought if they were mostly Spanish clients/tourists they would value some interaction/knowledge with/from locals... when travelling abroad! Coming to UK to stay, cycle, eat , etc with Spanish people and not mixing with locals at all would be strange to me, but maybe you are right and it's me the strange one.

That'd make sense if you only ever spoke to your guides but the reality is you meet a bunch of people- you're not just hiding in the chalet and running out to ride bikes. And bear in mind here, guests are choosing these companies- no doubt there are french vtt guiding companies out there we could choose to ride with.

But when you're doing the actual riding, language and cultural barriers can be a bummer, you want to be with people who get you and who you get. This isn't necessarily a problem of course but it's far less likely to be a problem with a UK guide.

Out with White Room, I loved riding with Yvan, who was [i]extremely[/i] french. Maybe my favourite guide. But even in our group there were some people that weren't so keen, understanding could be a bit tricky sometimes, there was far less chat etc.

Oh, and it's an side from this thought but if you're a company that provides pay + board and you employ a local, board isn't such a selling point...

Iolo, no not missed anything, sorry I thought you were on about the daily rate the guys get paid in relation to a week away and not the lengthy VTT accreditation and associated cost.

If that's the case then simple answer "I don't Know"
I don't know who pays for the course if you are a French Citizen working within your own country whether it's down to you as an individual or the company you work for and represent, more than likely the former, which does equate to that cost being passed on and whether that is built into a French guides daily rate over and above what a UK guide would charge again dunno.

But broken down in simple terms like that you can see how the problem has arisen, I doubt that there are many French companies employing that many UK guides without the relevant quals.

I don't know who pays for the course if you are a French Citizen

I'm sure someone said they get grants.

I feel like I should be able to travel freely inside the Economic Union and set up my stall to conduct a business with qualifications that should be recognised inside the EU without prejudice.

indeed you should, however what TA did was set up shop 13 years ago, and hope to carry on under the radar, in spite of local legislation. 'pioneering spirit', or a 'screw it, nothing to really loose' attitude?
i can see both sides of it. the french want people to be professionals and to be able to earn a wage that enables them a decent standard of living. if someone is looking at what to do for a living, and investing time getting trained, then surely they're going to look at what the rewards are likely to be once qualified.
i imagine the french want people to be able to stay, work, and live in the mountains, and be able to have a decent lifestyle, rather than those villages turn in to skiing and biking theme parks.
while i can see the benefit of what TA and other companies do in using seasonal employees, in terms of providing an equivalent, or even better, standard of service to their clients for a good price, companies like White Room show you can do all that while being locally qualified too.
fair play to TA for standing up to The Man and all, and I wish them success.

I'm not sure White Room is a totally fair comparison tbh- they've gone the IML route but they do winter season too so the argument about usefulness/validity doesn't really apply.

wrecker
I'm sure someone said they get grants

I'm glad you cleared that up.
Would you care to substantiate this statement or shall we all just accept it must be true as someone said.

Don't think TA were running in 2001

Trail Addiction run great holidays, I'm looking forward to my next.

I've spent quite some time living in France, it's a highly protected economy and very nationalistic. They make as difficult as they can for foreign businesses to set up. It is also far more corrupt a country than the UK. There are some very rich politicians both local and national who weren't that way when they started.

What TA are doing is not in any way economic migration. This is a visionary company which saw the potential of the region and setup a business which brings significant trade to the region. Had TA and some of the other UK guiding companies not gone to the region there would be a fraction of the number of UK tourists and materially less business and revenue for the locals.

I like your debating skills wrecker.

Thank you, but I wasn't debating. Discoduck asked a question, I told him what was said earlier in the thread. I didn't portray it as the only truth (or any truth); hence the "I'm sure someone said", however you decided to get your knickers in a twist over a pretty innocent comment, so no I am not going to back anything up at your request.

By the way the French don't offer the type of guided chalet based holidays that the UK companies do summer and winter. They have tried from time to time but the English generally book with English run companies and the French won;t pay for the format. The closest they have is Club Med, I have been to the one in Peisey Vallandry close to where TA are and the club is very nice but it's more than double the price.

Strikes me that to be a conscientious objector nowadays requires a high degree of selectivity, otherwise living, eating, drinking and being a consumer would be rather limited.

Other locations for riding bikes in mountains are of course available with the luxury of free choice that we currently enjoy.

Personally speaking and semantics aside, I'm gladdened to see and hear there are some people prepared to stand up to protectionism at any level, be it local or national. That said, this whole episode highlights the need for agreed and standardised regulation in the face of litigious societies and I would like to see the IMBA ( or other international representational body) more involved for the benefit of all.

i imagine the french want people to be able to stay, work, and live in the mountains, and be able to have a decent lifestyle, rather than those villages turn in to skiing and biking theme parks.

But without the ski and vtt tourism there would be fewer jobs, less income into the local economy, less investment etc etc.

@freeride, by the way if I write to my MEP that would be a certain Mr Farage !

I think the language and culture thing is a major consideration from my point of view. If you're riding tech/fast stuff, effectively blind, but for the advice and guidance of your host, you have to have a very particular dialogue - in both directions - in order to minimise risk and maximise enjoyment of the trails.

But without the ski and vtt tourism there would be fewer jobs, less income into the local economy, less investment etc etc.

yes, i agree, and i think the french authorities will want business to thrive, but also for people to live, work, have kids etc. etc. I grew up in a devon seaside town. I don't live there now. No decent, reasonably paid work there, after the main industrial employer collapsed and pulled out. Property prices are high, as geographically it's a wonderful place, but try finding decent paid work. it's the same story in so many tourist spots around the UK. down at heal, a bit scruffy, with a population that doubles in the summer.
schools closing in some picturesque villages because no-one actually lives there any more, they just holiday in their second homes, or let them out during the season.
if the french ski guides can't or won't be mtb guides or aren't any good at it that's their problem, but too many purely seasonal, low paid workers does not help a community to thrive.

and therefore act on behalf of all of the remaining open, welcoming and not outwardly corrupt nor racist French people I interact with on a daily basis.

"Not outwardly corrupt". You really can't stop yourself can you. Awesome advert for your company.

if the french ski guides can't or won't be mtb guides or aren't any good at it that's their problem, but too many purely seasonal, low paid workers does not help a community to thrive.

@Del I do agree with you although the mountain resorts didn't used to exist at all, they where high summer pastures for farmers. Skiing as a leisure activity was invented by the British.

yes, i agree, and i think the french authorities will want business to thrive, but also for people to live, work, have kids etc. etc. I grew up in a devon seaside town. I don't live there now. No decent, reasonably paid work there, after the main industrial employer collapsed and pulled out. Property prices are high, as geographically it's a wonderful place, but try finding decent paid work. it's the same story in so many tourist spots around the UK. down at heal, a bit scruffy, with a population that doubles in the summer.
schools closing in some picturesque villages because no-one actually lives there any more, they just holiday in their second homes, or let them out during the season.

I understand - I'm from West Cornwall and it's even worse down there, but some of these places, without tourism, really have nothing. At least the mountains have some year-round tourism industry - my home town is completely desolate in winter.

If I was in my early 20's I'd be over there myself guiding, the last thing on my mind would be scrimping together a deposit for a mortgage, I'd be getting pissed every night and trying to snake into as many chalet girls as was humanly possible. It's hardly something that is going to support a wife and kids back home so I dare say a majority of the folk out there are doing it because they want to not because they have to ?

Well now I am sure your clients will feel quite safe now knowing that they''l be guided by hangover piss-head.

My sweeping statements are based purely on my own experience, others no doubt have theirs. I like to base my thought process on life itself and not what it says in the good book,

So hardly a generality then.

As a French guy living in the UK I find the above comments very nasty and uncalled for. Yes I agree with TA that the french guides are trying to protect their interests but that is the same everywhere. Live with it or do something else.

Well as I said in my first comment it is exactly the same in the UK.

Although have you forgotten that France has banned wearing the Islamic Hijab in public?!

And possibly anything that will cover your full face.

As an ex-guide working outside of Britain but mainly guiding Brits, I think the real reason that companies employ such people, is that the locals aren't stupid enough to work for the wages that these companies pay.

Apparently wage seems to be fine for FA but not the corrupt government.

I don't know who pays for the course if you are a French Citizen

everyone, Universities are free in France? If you have a legal french business set up as part of the taxes you're payig for your employees training through funds too.

jambalaya - Member

Our black cabs are the best in the world. They have to buy a specified expensive vehicle, they have to have an expensive licence and undertake specific training. To deregulate the business overnight via the backdoor as has been done is a crime.