[Closed] Flats curious, a few q's

I wouldn’t expect that in your case, because you’d probably pedal the same way as with flats. I think you have to learn the pedalling circles thing, and if you’ve spent time on road focusing on efficiency you would.  I think SPDs for off-road exist because roadies came to MTBing and it felt weird and slow without them.  Or because XC whippet racers also pedal lots of road miles.

I spent decades with SPD's and found it hard going to flats at first... in retrospect because I was using crap shoes and crap flat pedals. Switching to Five 10's and getting rid of the Saint pedals for something more aggressive not only made the whole thing work but I stopped getting any pins in my shins.  Since then my trail bike has been exclusively flats.  It's fine for Afan... if anything I'd miss the XC HT on the climbs more than the SPD's... and then be happy I took the trail bike once I'm defending.

Until a couple of weeks ago my Carbon XC HT had SPD's... they were 20yrs old and needed a service and rusted together and I didn't actually get round to finishing so I now have flats on that as well.

I've also got an oval chainring which may (seems to me) to remove or minimise any perceived pedal inefficiency from flats and very much seems to help on grip on really steep stuff.

I wouldn’t expect that in your case, because you’d probably pedal the same way as with flats. I think you have to learn the pedalling circles thing, and if you’ve spent time on road focusing on efficiency you would.  I think SPDs for off-road exist because roadies came to MTBing and it felt weird and slow without them.  Or because XC whippet racers also pedal lots of road miles.

I did omit that I have spent several years commuting to work (dont really count it as riding) on Roadie SPD's and can pedal in circles fine, I'm also a spinner as opposed to grinder when in the saddle, so focus more on pedaling smoothly instead of thrashing. I use the watt bike at the gym now and again and get a lovely peanut shape.

I'm sure it was muscle memory that caused me to try and pull up, it only happened twice both times when going to start from a standstill, once pedaling, i noticed no difference.

For me I didnt switch to SPD for more power or efficinecy it was for the other reasons mentioned, I have noticed other improvements for me now being on SPD's. I am more committed to lines and getting through sections cleanly, I'm less likely to have a panic/wobble and chuck a foot out. I am also shifting my body weight better around the bike, really using my hips.

I do find the SPD's annoying for trying tricks though! Next time I go Woody or Windhill Ill chuck flats on to have a play!

I don't think that the shoe stiffness is particularly relevant , flat pedals are a lot bigger and so you don't need such a stiff sole . On SPD shoes you need stiff soles because all tyhe power is going through a tiny area of the shoe , around the cleat .

One nice thing about flats is I can walk out the door with whatever I happen to have on my feet ang go for a ride.

And it's one less thing to faff over. The K.I.S.S. principle.

One nice thing about flats is I can walk out the door with whatever I happen to have on my feet

Doesn't apply to me since that's usually socks 🙂

I don’t think that the shoe stiffness is particularly relevant , flat pedals are a lot bigger and so you don’t need such a stiff sole

I do - I have used skate shoes for flats, and they squirm around all over the place - my foot is longer than a flat pedal of course.  I've done back to back rides on the same trail on the same bike with flats and wondered why I'm so frigging tired and slow. so something is making it harder work.  I think this is a factor - less so with proper mtb shoes than skate shoes of course but still.

I may not have been slower (although I find this hard to believe without having timed it) but if I'm feeling slow and tired, I'm not really having a good time which is the point of the exercise after all.

As ever, there are folks that just need to convince that what they do is right, at the end of the day, it's what works for you, not anyone else.

The only thing I'd add is that to do it properly IMHO it can be quite an expensive experiment, ie cheap shitey shoes and flats don't really give a fair reflection, whereas a cheap pair of SPDs and shoes give more of an idea of what riding in those is like.

I rode SPD for years, prefered it really, but one solo puffer had my knee in bits, so decided to give flats a go, and committed a whole summer to decide. Don't notice any loss of efficiency, or any real benefit on descents either, other than the fact it's easier to bail, but I wouldn't go back to SPD now as no more knee pain.

One nice thing about flats is I can walk out the door with whatever I happen to have on my feet ang go for a ride.

And it’s one less thing to faff over. The K.I.S.S. principle.

Not only that I can drive in my flats as well...  part of that means I don't get home and leave them in the car wet and full of mud for next time (even if the car mat is filthy).  I don't forget my shoes... either.

SPDs on the road/commute

Flats off road

If I'm honest, I really don't notice the difference... Flats are great if you have good pedals and good shoes. Plus it's much easier to dab on sketchy sections

@nobeerinthefridge I thought the concensus of this thread that neither is really much better than the other.

"SPDs on the road/commute"

I've got a short commute with a lot of lights. Flats are quicker away in the traffic light drag race. I'm a hard pedal stroke ahead from the guy looking down/ pausing/ soft pedaling while he clips in.

And before you ask, the guy [s]trackstanding[/s] wrenching the bars from side to side while he slowly mangles the bike across the pedestrian crossing is either not looking or too out of shape to respond when the lights change, and the guy actually trackstanding is on a fixie, so he's not off the line that quickly either.

No girls, obviously. They're far too sensible for any of this nonsense. 🙂

I thought the concensus of this thread that neither is really much better than the other.

It's amusing that some people see not being tempted to put their foot down as an advantage of clipped in.. whereas those coming from clipped in see it as an advantage (on the whole)

I think the non-"actual cycling" advantages of flats [b]for me[/b] outweighs any perceived advantages of clips.

What really doesn't work is half serious single track and rubbish flats/pedals...
Either do it (or not) is my experience.... I was a committed SPDer.... and rubbish shoes/pedals just confirmed that for me. Switching to good shoes and pedals was honestly a revelation.... if I'm honest I felt a bit stupid in not committing to trying flats properly... not to mention some hairy moments resulting from not committing.

I suppose I come from a viewpoint of eschewing extras.

Eg, I don't need special shoes to ride my bike (or the special pedals), I don't need special underpants (chamois), I don't need a derailleur, etc etc.

If I was a highly trained pro, then obviously it would be different.

Simplicity in a bike and gear cuts out an awful out of faff and expense.

I'm going to side with molgrips on the stiff shoes thing.

Riding in cheap airwalk skate shoes I'd get sore, crampy arches after 10 miles and hot spots from where the pins were deforming the sole.

A pair of 5-10s later and I'm much comfier, no hot spots and definitely better pedalling.

It's not your Team Sky marginal gains thing it's more the difference between knocking a nail in with a hammer or a haddock (or perhaps a kids plastic hammer but haddock was funnier in my head).

With flats if I'm just riding down to town I wear whatever trainers I have on.

Anything longer distance 5/10's are used. Far more comfortable and much more grippy. I find the pins and platform can be felt through pliable trainers. Ok for a while, but a proper long ride, no thanks. 🙂

My 5/10's get worn all day sometimes as they are so damned comfortable to just walk around in.

My experience now I'm converted to flat pedals after using SPDs for 10 years:

* doesn't include bashing shins with flat pedals

* my feet cramp up going down steps if soles are too flimsy (i'm looking at you vans with your waffle grip)

* i prefer them to spd

* choice is limited for winter riding

If I was a highly trained pro, then obviously it would be different.

Meh.  This 'highly trained pro' stuff is passive aggressive and pointless.  I wear jeans in everyday life.  I'd get changed to play football, work on the car, go for a run, so why not get changed to go biking?  I've ridden plenty in jeans over the years, I chose to use biking gear because I find it much more comfortable.  Great if you don't, but you clearly don't have to be a pro seeking marginal gains to appreciate the comfort. Also my jeans would get pretty filthy.

And even if I were riding flats I'd not use my normal everyday shoes anyway.  You seem to forget that most of us don't share your style of riding epicyclo.  I'm happy you enjoy your riding that way, but diversity is good.

This ‘highly trained pro’ stuff is passive aggressive and pointless.

I disagree. I'm a moderately fit amateur, but pros are on a different planet fitness and skill wise. I do get changed to go biking, just not into gear that any pro athlete would wear in a race. Basing my equipment choices on what they do would be a huge mistake. It might be the case that SPDs would be more efficient for someone of my fitness level, but that needs to be shown empirically, not just based on an assumption that what works for a pro athlete must be better for everyone.

As a normal person, not racing or doing epic distance, it matters not one bit whether flats or spds are more efficient. You should ride the ones you want. Anything else is just incredibly stupid. And it's not like there's anything much else about mountain biking that's efficient

And to do that you've got to try them both- properly try, get good at them, use quality parts, be fair, and then decide.

So what are the decent but cheap flat  pedals to go for at the moment?Nukeproof neutron plastic ?  Or any other recommendations?

http://www.treadmtb.co.za/trying-to-pedal-in-circles-dont-bother/

https://www.gearandgrit.com/the-cycling-myth-that-wont-die-pedaling-circles/

https://roadcyclinguk.com/riding/bike-fitting-the-myth-of-the-upstroke.html#r5Ys2K7lsk6jboXA.97

http://www.over40cyclist.com/correct-pedalling-technique-part-2/

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wMgEBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=pedaling+circles+myth+phil+burt&source=bl&ots=fGRFGxZzn3&sig=FAtdWDozqxQ0GrCK2njrnE2pGNc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHnLzv7qnZAhWTHsAKHZIXD3IQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=pedaling%20circles%20myth%20phil%20burt&f=false

I don’t agree with this whole “ spd’s make you more committed in technical sections” thing - I don’t find that I’m any more inclined to throw away a “comfort dab”with flats than with spd’s, on the basis that a technical section doesn’t count unless you clean it...

I haven't tried them specifically... however as I and others have said half doing it on flats is crap. (I may be paraphrasing)

What's just as important is what shoes you mate them with.

If you were a pro who uses flat's (Sam Hill or maybe Sam Hill) then you can probably get away with a lot less grip.

I use some Superstar Nano's ... (£50) with some Five 10's... with a mix of long and short pins the basic freerider five 10's are very good. The ones with the Mi6 sole have no movement at all... less than a SPD dialled to min. Your foot simply doesn't move unless you lift it..

If I was [b]only[/b] riding Mi6 soles I might shorten some pins... as the grip is absolute.

Also if you are moving over from clipped in then start with max grip and reduce it as you get comfortable.

It’s amusing that some people see not being tempted to put their foot down as an advantage of clipped in.

For me its a mindset thing, it makes me commit more. I prob wont explain it very well, but its very simiair to when I ride BMX, if i want to do the trick, transfer or grind I need to commit 100% to what I am doing, if you dont, generally it wont come off.

I always found with flats I would roll through sections almost looking to not commit and dab at the earliest stage, now I find the opposite. However this could also be  result of me improving as a MTB rider...or the SPD's forcing me to ride stuff without dabbing and thus improving, kinda jumping in the deep end approach. Who knows, I like em personally.

It might be the case that SPDs would be more efficient for someone of my fitness level, but that needs to be shown empirically,

No, you misunderstand.

I'm not choosing pro type gear (lycra, SPDs) because the pros use it and I think it'll make me faster.  I'm choosing it cos I've tried the options and it works for me, I like it.  For me, it's about comfort - it's comfortable for a pro to wear just as it's comfortable for me - it makes no difference that they are faster than me.  It doesn't need to be shown if they are faster - you just need to try both and use what you prefer.

What's nonsense is epicyclo's insinuation that anyone who does choose lycra or SPDs is vainly imitating pros to try and show off or in the assumption it'll make them quicker.  It's passive aggressive because of the suggestion of stupidity in that behaviour, and of superiority because he doesn't engage in it.

I wear lycra for some MTB and for road; I wear SPDs because I prefer pedalling in them.  I am however on the lookout for some flat pedal shoes, I'm looking to go back to flats again on one bike because I have recently explored a whole load of new trails where I think I'd really benefit.  It's not about what pros wear or what I think I look like.  I don't think I could name a single pro XC MTBer.

And on that subject - I bought a pair of 5.10s about ten years ago, one of their first models I think, and the fit was really wrong for me - too narrow and long.  I have a wide forefoot and narrow heel.  But 5.10 seems to be all there is - do they make different shapes of shoe?  What other manufacturers are there?  Seem to be very few.

For me its a mindset thing, it makes me commit more. I prob wont explain it very well, but its very simiair to when I ride BMX, if i want to do the trick, transfer or grind I need to commit 100% to what I am doing, if you dont, generally it wont come off.

I always found with flats I would roll through sections almost looking to not commit and dab at the earliest stage, now I find the opposite. However this could also be result of me improving as a MTB rider…or the SPD’s forcing me to ride stuff without dabbing and thus improving, kinda jumping in the deep end approach. Who knows, I like em personally.

Coming from SPD I feel a bit the other way .... which I thin just shows how its a mindset and what you are used to.

By "the other way" I mean I now commit to dab or plant on a turn etc. where I wouldn't before.
It actually took me quite a while after going flats to make this into a deliberate act but then I came from exactly the opposite direction than you.

The other part of my quote was really saying that both have benefits and the benefits seem to be more pronounced when you come from one side or the other to the opposite.

Another thing I found was after riding clips I'd obsess about pedal/foot position.
It took me a while to realise it's not the be all and end all but I'd be thinking and worrying about it instead of riding. (Especially if I was for example seasoning a feature.. I'd set off... then be unhappy with my foot position and spend the time rolling into a feature messing with my feet instead of preparing for the feature)

Re those two links - for me, pedalling circles isn't about pulling up on the pedals and generating actual upward force.  I focus on moving my feet forward and backwards in a circle, so slightly pushing forwards and the top and scooping round through the bottom.  This makes everything smoother for me, I don't bounce up and down on the tyres or shock, it feels much more comfortable, and it helps loads on tech sections.  I find tech climbing harder on flats.

With flats if I’m just riding down to town I wear whatever trainers I have on.

You can do likewise on clipless.

Lets face it there is no right or wrong in this debate. Both pedals have their pros and cons. Although I do miss on flats the ability on very steep slow stuff, to be able to pull right over the top, and I'm not the only one Wade Simmons has made similar comments, and he's a commited flat pedal user. But you have to weight that up against the pros on flats of being able to get off them a touch quicker.

Re those two links – for me, pedalling circles isn’t about pulling up on the pedals and generating actual upward force. I focus on moving my feet forward and backwards in a circle, so slightly pushing forwards and the top and scooping round through the bottom. This makes everything smoother for me, I don’t bounce up and down on the tyres or shock, it feels much more comfortable, and it helps loads on tech sections. I find tech climbing harder on flats.

Just curious, have you tried an oval chain-ring [b]with flats[/b]?
The second half sounds very like what I feel riding an oval with flats vs round with flats and also an area I initially found flats were less preferable to clipped in.

In contrast I didn't really feel benefit having the oval on my SPD pedalled bike.

No, I'm far too old fashioned for oval chanrings, but not old enough to have tried them first time around 🙂 (although they were still around on people's bikes, but had been discredited).  Interesting idea though, I can see how that might help.

I could convert my ancient Patriot to 1x, the bike would suit it.

But try as I might I can’t detect this supposed improvement in efficiency.

My experiences are similar (there is probably a bit of benefit in being attached to the pedal when sprinting hard but for normal riding, zero discernable difference). I'm used to spds off road and have nice warm winter boots, so use them for most stuff though.

molgrips

...What’s nonsense is epicyclo’s insinuation that anyone who does choose lycra or SPDs is vainly imitating pros to try and show off or in the assumption it’ll make them quicker.  It’s passive aggressive because of the suggestion of stupidity in that behaviour, and of superiority because he doesn’t engage in it.

I wear lycra for some MTB and for road; I wear SPDs because I prefer pedalling in them...

You're putting words in my mouth. There's a vast difference between thinking something is stupid and thinking it's unnecessary.

SPDs - I think they're of no value for ordinary riding and I have been saying that for years and been excoriated on STW several times for saying it.

The recent research quoted above validates my opinion. I can't see the point of having special shoes, and special pedals for something of negligible or no benefit to ordinary riding.

Note that I also said I think it is worthwhile using spds on my fixed wheel bike, so I am not totally opposed. However that's more to keep my feet on the pedals on bumpy high cadence descents than to gain a power advantage.

Lycra - I don't have a problem with lycra. There's plenty pics of me in lycra jerseys.

Chamois - I don't wear chamois because I don't see the point in it for the riding I do, and I have never used it even when doing back to back century days or 24 hour events. I do not get any problems with chafe or saddle sores.

My opinion is that chamois is something that benefits professional riders who spend extraordinary time in the saddle, day in, day out, spinning at a high cadence. I'm just an ordinary rider who doesn't do that, so for me it's unnecessary.

Not using these things means I can dress for the mountain, not the bike, which is an advantage in this climate and the places I take my bike.

You may differ, and that's your prerogative.

Adidas Terrex trail cross sl shoes are the bastard offspring of 510 and Adidas, stealth sole on something more trainery if your after something not 510 and possibly better for hikebike  🙂

CLipless does have a benefit over  when your traversing rough surfaces and likely to have your feet bounce off flats but spd do have it for the comedy gold.

I reminded myself today, extreme pedalling in circles is useful on a really muddy climb. Avoiding the peaks in torque maximises traction.

"mm93

So what are the decent but cheap flat pedals to go for at the moment?Nukeproof neutron plastic ? Or any other recommendations?"

I've owned some bloomin expensive flats but right now both my bikes have Nukeproof Horizon plastics on them- they're light, they're big enough, thin enough, tough enough and grippier than most. The Neutron isn't a bad pedal at all but imo it's not up to the same level

Northwind,thanks for the advice,

Been and bought the Nukeproof neutron/electron this afternoon though !l LOL.

To be honest I looked at both of the Nukeproof s side by side and couldn't see much difference at all, so decided to save the tenner 😀 Cheers.

I reminded myself today, extreme pedalling in circles is useful on a really muddy climb. Avoiding the peaks in torque maximises traction.

That is where I feel the benefit with flats and oval. (As in the new ones not the old biopace which were 90 degrees out... )

I've never actually tested back-to-back (same day) but I know a few really regular climbs where I always felt the flats were not as good for smooth traction as the clips but it really seems that the oval chainring makes a similar difference.

I could convert my ancient Patriot to 1x, the bike would suit it.